Marriage prep and the pornography question - how worried should I be at "once a month"?

[Jessa]

My fiance and I have been together for about two years. We have at times talked about pornography and the horrors. He always agreed with me and told me he did not have any addiction. In marriage prep tonight he said the same thing - he had no addiction. In the car on the way home, I asked him again because I felt he was hiding something. He said he used it about once a month but he wasn’t addicted. I also caught him going to Hooters when I was out of town, and it’s not the first time he’s lied or made light of things I’ve asked him. I feel like I’m answering my own question as this seems grounds for disaster. But then I’m reminded, 70% of Catholic men use pornography. I’m really horrified by this, like being punched in the gut. He is a spiritual man, and very well formed in the Faith and TOB. He is also my best friend. He seems somewhat apologetic but could not come out and say he would never use it again. I don’t really know how to process this.

 

[RolandThompsonGunner]

I mean, I don’t know your fiancé, but looking at pornography is a really common issue for men (and some women, of course.) It doesn’t necessarily mean anything as far as his attraction to you or ability to refrain from sleeping with other women.

I’m not saying it’s good, but I also wouldn’t say that a guy who looks at porn once a month is an addict or some kind of deviant. Basically, I get why you’re not thrilled but don’t make more of it than it is.

 

[MNathaniel]

Personally the angle that concerns me is the fact that it sounds like his inclination is to hide this from her?

Like, it sounds like it took a long time for him to even admit he uses porn once a month. And he didn’t volunteer the information — it had to be dragged out of him. And he’s not committing to changing the behaviour.

I can see how the initial hiding it, and now the declining to commit to trying to stop it, are discouraging and concerning. (The Hooter’s bit I wouldn’t personally stress about but maybe I’m just ignorant. But seems to me like a mostly hokey place, not actually titillating. I’m not a man though.)

Monthly porn use that he’s not yet willing to commit to turning away from? That’s different.

Also, I’m sceptical that we can consider anyone a non-addict just because their habit is spaced out month-to-month. If he’s so ‘free’ and non-addicted to porn, why can’t he just commit to never using it again?

 

[MNathaniel]

It doesn’t necessarily mean anything as far as his attraction to you or ability to refrain from sleeping with other women.

Also, I’d note that porn use is a problem in and of itself. Not just as a warning sign that a man might eventually sleep with other women.

To abuse oneself to the image of a third party, is unchastity and infidelity to one’s partner. The third party doesn’t have to be physically in the room.

 

[RolandThompsonGunner]

Also, I’d note that porn use is a problem in and of itself. Not just as a warning sign that a man might eventually sleep with other women.

No, I agree. I’m just trying to preemptively address some of the concerns I’ve heard women express over this.

As to “why did he feel the need to hide it?” I wonder if the OPs reaction isn’t a clue. If she hit the roof and is questioning the marriage (which seems to be the tone) based on this, he may have felt that he couldn’t bring it up to her because she’d overreact.

Again, not defending it in any way. But assuming he’s not lying about the frequency, it’s a pretty mundane, run of the mill problem.

 

[MNathaniel]

he may have felt that he couldn’t bring it up to her because she’d overreact.

Again, not defending it in any way. But assuming he’s not lying about the frequency, it’s a pretty mundane, run of the mill problem.

I mean… maybe there’s a gender divide here?

But I don’t see an overreaction from the OP.

I mean (someone please advise if this violates any TOS on CAF, I’m assuming not because I’ve seen such straightforward terminology used on other threads)…

“Monthly porn use” is a slightly euphemistic way of saying that every month, a woman’s partner seeks out images of other women naked to masturbate to.

That’s a very gross thing.

What a proportionate reaction?

(Keeping in mind, again, that he hasn’t even said he’ll try to stop.)

 

[AdamP88]

But then I’m reminded, 70% of Catholic men use pornography.

That’s a big problem.

I think the alarm bells in your post are not necessarily that he has used pornography in the past, but that he continues to use it and is not prepared to undertake not to use it again.
There are a number of reasons to think during an engagement “is this right” and look at the relationship, this would be one of them I think. It’s not a small thing and has the potential to be hugely damaging to your future marriage. Think how upset you are now, and then think of how much more upset you’d be if you discovered he was using porn on a regular basis in your marriage.
It doesn’t really matter how spiritual he is if he is prepared to allow lust to get the better of him.

I’m not saying that he needs to be white as the driven snow and never to have fallen in terms of sexual sin, but his present attitude and conduct in this area are what you need to think about, and I would say, as a married man, that if a guy is using porn at all, then he’s not marriage material at this moment in time. It’s a sign of immaturity and unless he’s prepared to admit that and address it, then I’d be thinking twice about a wedding.

 

[AdamP88]

I mean, I don’t know your fiancé, but looking at pornography is a really common issue for men (and some women, of course.) It doesn’t necessarily mean anything as far as his attraction to you or ability to refrain from sleeping with other women.

I wouldn’t necessarily say that. Viewing porn on a regular basis has the potential to seriously undermine the connection between spouses. It also demonstrates a sexual immaturity that may or may not progress on to full blown infidelity…but it’s certainly not a good sign in that regard.
Saying that it’s a common issue doesn’t really remove the gravity of it or what it says about a man’s character or maturity.

I’m not saying it’s good, but I also wouldn’t say that a guy who looks at porn once a month is an addict or some kind of deviant. Basically, I get why you’re not thrilled but don’t make more of it than it is.

It’s a big deal. “Not a sexual deviant” is setting the bar pretty low for marriage.

As to “why did he feel the need to hide it?” I wonder if the OPs reaction isn’t a clue. If she hit the roof and is questioning the marriage (which seems to be the tone) based on this, he may have felt that he couldn’t bring it up to her because she’d overreact.

Again, not defending it in any way. But assuming he’s not lying about the frequency, it’s a pretty mundane, run of the mill problem.

But do you think her reaction is unjustified? If so, why? Why do you think she shouldn’t question the marriage? The whole point of engagement is to get to know your future spouse better and, if necessary, to question whether this is the person you should marry. Porn use in marriage is a major issue, regardless of how widespread it is and I think it would be prudent for the OP to consider carefully whether this is the right decision if the man she is considering marrying is not prepared to kick the habit.

I would also bear in mind that it could be the case that he could be downplaying the frequency of use to make it sound better.

It’s not right to call this a mundane issue as if it’s not a big deal, or it’s somehow acceptable. For the sake of this guy and his future marriage, he needs to be called out on this behaviour, told it is wrong and immature, and will damage his marriage, and if he’s not prepared to address it then maybe it’s time to go.
At the very least the OP needs to have a frank conversation with him about it in the vein of “I am not prepared to accept this behaviour from my future spouse”. Perhaps it will be uncomfortable, but it’s necessary.

 

[AdamP88]

“Monthly porn use” is a slightly euphemistic way of saying that every month, a woman’s partner seeks out images of other women naked to masturbate to.

This is true. I’ve also heard women say that they find porn more damaging and undermining than an affair because the women in porn are so unrealistic that they feel they can’t compare.

 

[redcatholic]

Saying Once a month is the equivalent of getting pulled over during a DUI stop and saying you had one drink. Ask any cop, it’s never one beer.

But even once a month is concerning. He needs to promise you to NEVER again look at pornography. Like never. Not “oops I slipped up last week”. But never. If he can’t do that, then it’s obviously a bigger problem.
Never again.

 

[Maximian]

because the women in porn are so unrealistic that they feel they can’t compare.

This is surely the worst aspect of pornography. My adult daughter tells me that young women are starting to turn to older men because they grew up before computer pornography ruined their ability to relate to real women.

 

[AdamP88]

This is surely the worst aspect of pornography. My adult daughter tells me that young women are starting to turn to older men because they grew up before computer pornography ruined their ability to relate to real women.

Indeed. As a teacher in a high-school, it is quite clear that this will be an even bigger problem in ten years as a whole generation of boys have grown up with unfettered internet access and little moral guidance so it’s only going to get worse. Some of the comments you hear in a boys school about women’s bodies are quite disgusting and it’s beginning to become a problem that female staff will be the subject of sexual jokes or comments.

And that’s the other issue with porn too. As St. Paul writes, what we allow into our minds has an effect on our views and attitudes, if we objectify women with porn, then our thoughts and comments about women will become disrespectful and sexual. It’s a poison. The idea that it will lead to an affair is neither here nor there really, because porn trains the mind to view every woman as a sexual object and compare them to the fantasy women from porn.

I would almost say that “a little bit of porn use” is probably worse for a marriage than “a little bit of alcohol abuse”. Because while alcohol abuse is obviously a bad thing, it isn’t as insidious a porn and doesn’t undermine the love and tenderness between spouses in the same way.

 

[Maximian]

I fully agree with your point though I don’t agree with you example of alcohol, which is another major underestimated problem.

 

[AdamP88]

I’m not trying to underestimate the problems alcohol can cause. But it doesn’t attack and destroy love in the same way porn does.

 

[RolandThompsonGunner]

But even once a month is concerning. He needs to promise you to NEVER again look at pornography. Like never. Not “oops I slipped up last week”. But never. If he can’t do that, then it’s obviously a bigger problem.
Never again.

So if he can’t guarantee a sinless future, he’s not marriage material? What about the OP? Can she give an ironclad promise she’s not going to slip up and masturbate over the next 50 years? Or that she’s not going to have a sexual fantasy about some other guy?

People are human. We strive for perfection but we’re flawed. If she’s saying “I will view a single slip up in this area as a relationship extinction level event” then the marriage is going to be sitting on a land mine. Again, I’m not saying it’s fine. I’m saying this is the kind of everyday sin she’s going to have to deal with in whoever she marries. Even if not this particular sin, everyone is going to mess up in some form and we need to be prepared to help our spouses improve, not sit there with our finger poised over the “I will leave you if you stumble” button at all times.

I will say, I do agree that his lack of interest in stopping is a concern. If I were her, I would say that she needs him to cut out this behavior completely. But then be understanding if he admits to the occasional slip up. If every misstep he makes in the marriage, sexual or not, is cause for her to melt down, all she’s doing is encouraging him to lie and hide stuff.

But do you think her reaction is unjustified? If so, why? Why do you think she shouldn’t question the marriage?

I think her reaction is too big, basically. I get being less than thrilled with it, but I don’t get the “punched in the gut.” Again, I’m not saying “porn is cool, who cares?” He shouldn’t do it. But anyone she marries is going to have flaws and struggle with something, even if it’s not this particular thing.

Recognizing that your fiancé is human does not mean giving the green light to sin. But people are people and you can’t fall apart when you encounter the less flattering side.

I mentioned the “not a deviant” thing because I get the sense, perhaps incorrect, that the OP is a touch naive about this and doesn’t get what a common issue for young men it is. Again, that doesn’t make it okay, but she shouldn’t think of her fiancé as some uniquely perverted creep.

 

[Maximian]

You’d be surprised…

 

[RolandThompsonGunner]

I fully agree with your point though I don’t agree with you example of alcohol, which is another major underestimated problem.

Well, it’s also possible to use alcohol responsibly and in moderation. That’s not a bad thing. Whereas even “moderate” porn use is bad.

 

[AdamP88]

I get where you’re coming from. If he had admitted to viewing porn years ago but not on an ongoing basis, and affirmed that this behaviour is unacceptable, then fair enough.
The issue is not so much about being sinless as about whether or not his present behaviour is an indication that he is sexually immature and perhaps not ready for marriage.
Porn use is not an issue you should bring into marriage as it essentially says to your spouse that they are not enough and you’d prefer to have fantasies about other women than be faithful. I do think porn is a form of infidelity, and that is how it will be viewed by a wife who finds her husband uses it regularly. Why would you marry someone who is likely to hurt you in this way?

I think your characterisation of it is slightly off. Sure, it may be quite common, but that doesn’t mean we should ignore what it says about the person or how problematic it really is. It’s easy to see it as “just something young men struggle with”, but if the OP’s finace was sleeping with another woman once or twice a month would we tell her to press on with the wedding plans? I know it’s not the same thing, but it’s not really different on an emotional level.

I think, if every young woman reacted like the OP when a brother, dad, boyfriend, or fiance was found to be viewing porn, then perhaps there’d be a greater incentive to quit it. I think the OP’s reaction was entirely appropriate. One of the things you discuss in marriage prep is being sensitive to your spouse’s emotions, the emotion experienced by the OP is simply a natural reaction to the information she received. If the fiance is unable to say that he will avoid something that will hurt his wife in this way, then he’s not ready for marriage.

 

[goout]

My fiance and I have been together for about two years. We have at times talked about pornography and the horrors. He always agreed with me and told me he did not have any addiction. In marriage prep tonight he said the same thing - he had no addiction. In the car on the way home, I asked him again because I felt he was hiding something. He said he used it about once a month but he wasn’t addicted. I also caught him going to Hooters when I was out of town, and it’s not the first time he’s lied or made light of things I’ve asked him. I feel like I’m answering my own question as this seems grounds for disaster. But then I’m reminded, 70% of Catholic men use pornography. I’m really horrified by this, like being punched in the gut. He is a spiritual man, and very well formed in the Faith and TOB. He is also my best friend. He seems somewhat apologetic but could not come out and say he would never use it again. I don’t really know how to process this.

How did the idea of porn addiction even arise in your relationship? Obviously it is an issue, or it wouldn’t be up for discussion and denial.
And as someone else said, it’s never “just once a month”. The fact that you are catching him in lies indicates that you have a trust issue.

Yes many men use pornography. Many men in relationships struggle with it. No one is perfect and in my own marriage this has been an issue.
At the same time, your only position must be zero tolerance. That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t marry or whatever. That’s your decision to make in real life, we can’t tell you how to make that decision. But pornography is one of those things that merits a zero tolerance level. Very destructive to marriage and very difficult to get away from when addicted. And yes, the lying is a prime symptom that he has a problem.

 

[Peeps]

70%?

I’ve read figures that say anywhere from 90-99%. Some of these figures come from surveys given to random groups of men (e.g., Evangelical Protestant men in certain denoms, etc.).

I think that if women are looking for men who have no interest in porn, they will have a very difficult time finding them.

I agree, her fiance should be working on ending his attraction to porn, but doing this is even harder than trying to change eating/exercise habits to lose weight. Many men have tried and fail thousands of times, and I think many men eventually just give up out of despair. Forming a “Porn Anonymous” group is just not likely to happen–how many men would feel comfortable sitting in a circle with other men and discussing porn use?! Besides, the 12-Step type programs don’t work for everyone (although they work for many).

I don’t know the answer. (I’m a 63-year old woman, BTW, and married for over 40 years, for those who don’t know much about Peeps.) I just know that a huge, HUGE percentage of men use porn, and the young woman in question needs to do some studying about this, and not expect any man, including her fiance, to just “stop it.” Not likely to happen.

Sorry, I know many will disagree strongly. If they have a proven answer to porn use/addiction, I’m willing to hear about it. I personally think that just like trying to eat healthy, the answer to porn use is life-long struggle, with lots of failures and confessions, and starting all over and then more failures and confessions, and starting all over–I think it never ends for most men, and I think that the women who love them need to continue loving them and supporting them and not judging them as they struggle to become holy. Walking away from the man they love is not going to help that man stop using porn.