Marriage Question

[NinaBG]

Brother with annulment wants to marry great girl who is Christian but not Catholic, who also happens to be divorced, but was married on a boat by an “unafilliated” reverend. She does not have annulment. Does she need one?

 

[THurifer2]

She does not have annulment.

The answer to your question will come from the priest that they contact regarding marriage. If the church views her marriage as valid then she needs an annulment.

Other things that may impede a potential marriage are willingness to raise children Catholic and if they are co-habitating.

 

[puzzleannie]

no way to answer about an individual marriage situation as there are too many variables. Yes if she wishes to marry a Catholic she must meet with the priest do determine if she is indeed free to marry. Whether or not the entire formal annulment investigation is required, or whether it is a simpler process depends entirely on circumstances that pertained at the time of her first marriage, and completing the initial interview with the priest is the way to start the process.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

Any time a Catholic wants to get married (in the Church), both parties to the marriage have to supply “proof” that they are free to marry, which means that in the case of someone who has a previous marriage, even if only putative, this must be subjected to the judgment of ecclesiastical authority. So the short answer is, “yes, she needs an anulment.”

The longer answer, though, is that she shouldn’t assume she will receive one - Protestants are not bound by Catholic marriage law, and thus they are capable of contracting valid marriages by means that are otherwise impossible for Catholics (like before a JP or minister of a denomination other than their own). We will not be able to judge the particular merits of her case here on the internet, but the fact of her marriage being witnessed by an “unaffiliated” minister need not negatively affect its validity.

 

[tee_eff_em]

Other things that may impede a potential marriage are …] if they are co-habitating.

:ehh: Baloney.

tee

 

[1ke]

Brother with annulment wants to marry great girl who is Christian but not Catholic, who also happens to be divorced, but was married on a boat by an “unafilliated” reverend. She does not have annulment. Does she need one?

She will need to show that she is free to marry. Therefore, her first marriage WILL need to be examined, as it is presumed valid.

There are many variables and details, and they must all be discussed with a priest and then the priest will guide them from there.

They should make NO marriage plans until she has been declared free to marry, because as you know there is no guarantee she will be found free to marry. If she is in a valid marriage, she will not be free to marry, period.

 

[THurifer2]

:ehh: Baloney.

tee

If you want to get married in my parish You CANNOT be co-habitating and BOTH PARENTS must promise to raise the children Catholic otherwise your wedding will not take place in our parish church…BALONEY OR NOT.

 

[tee_eff_em]

If you want to get married in my parish You CANNOT be co-habitating and BOTH PARENTS must promise to raise the children Catholic otherwise your wedding will not take place in our parish church…BALONEY OR NOT.

Then I would advise the OP’s brother (who has enough issues having a girlfriend with a putative marriage requiring investigation) to stay away from your parish. Unless there is something I do not understand about it, if your parish turns away such non-conforming couples, it is doing an injustice. All persons who are not prohibited by law can contract marriage.

:twocents:
tee
who is NOT a canon lawyer

 

[ljprevo]

Be careful of the replies here, if she has a first marriage of any kind it will need to be reviewed by a tribunal and annulment has to be granted before she can marry in the church.

The advice about meeting with a priest is most definitely the 1st step.

 

[NinaBG]

Of course they will meet with a priest first! I was just wondering how the Catholic “rules” apply to a non-Catholic. And no, they are not co-habitating. It’s a little cloudy to me because she is a Christian but not Catholic, and was married by someone unknown to her who happened to have the title of Reverend but the license says “unafilliated” next to his name, and I don’t quite understand the ramifications. I will “report back” and let you know how they fare with the priest.

Thanks for all your perspectives! I’m new to this forum and website.

 

[thomasf]

Just a warning, it’s possible that her marriage might be judged valid regardless of the affiliation of the person that marries her. The church sees all marriages as valid unless proven otherwise, and does not hold non-catholics to the same standards as catholics. While that marriage might be judged as invalid if it was a catholic involved, it might just be seen as valid because she is not catholic.

The best advice, as always, is to speak to a priest.

 

[thomasf]

Then I would advise the OP’s brother (who has enough issues having a girlfriend with a putative marriage requiring investigation) to stay away from your parish. Unless there is something I do not understand about it, if your parish turns away such non-conforming couples, it is doing an injustice. All persons who are not prohibited by law can contract marriage.

:twocents:
tee
who is NOT a canon lawyer

Yes, there is something you do not understand about it. Catholic marriages are not governed soley by ‘law’, and are not simple ‘contracts’. Rather they are sacramental in form and governed by the church. And in most cases a priest should not marry a couple who are cohabiting, since they are not in communion with the church’s teaching. In otherwords, they are in mortal sin and are not eligible for the sacrament of marriage. And a priest should definitely refuse a couple in that state for the sake of their marriage and their souls.

 

[Seatuck]

Of course they will meet with a priest first! I was just wondering how the Catholic “rules” apply to a non-Catholic. And no, they are not co-habitating. It’s a little cloudy to me because she is a Christian but not Catholic, and was married by someone unknown to her who happened to have the title of Reverend but the license says “unafilliated” next to his name, and I don’t quite understand the ramifications. I will “report back” and let you know how they fare with the priest.

Thanks for all your perspectives! I’m new to this forum and website.

Welcome Nina.
In general all Non Catholics are not bound by the "rules " for getting married in the same way that Catholics are. So any non Catholic can get married in a variety of ways that are going to be considered Valid by the Church. She is going to have to file papers with the tribunal to have it sorted out as long as the marriage was registered civilly somewhere. Catholics do believe in the permanence of marriage once it is validly attempted. So there is no guarantee that she is free to marry.

 

[Seatuck]

Yes, there is something you do not understand about it. Catholic marriages are not governed soley by ‘law’, and are not simple ‘contracts’. Rather they are sacramental in form and governed by the church. And in most cases a priest should not marry a couple who are cohabiting, since they are not in communion with the church’s teaching. In otherwords, they are in mortal sin and are not eligible for the sacrament of marriage. And a priest should definitely refuse a couple in that state for the sake of their marriage and their souls.

In many places Priests who truly care about souls will take the time to teach such couples. They will ask one to leave the house or at least move to another bedroom. They will teach the couple of the necessity of a good confession. Otherwise the couple will not get the benefit of the grace from a Sacramental marriage. It will only look good on paper. You cannot recieve the grace from any sacrament with mortal sin on the soul and in fact we know from the Sacrament of Communion that it in fact is a sacrilege to attempt to procure it.

 

[tee_eff_em]

Yes, there is something you do not understand about it. Catholic marriages are not governed soley by ‘law’, and are not simple ‘contracts’. Rather they are sacramental in form and governed by the church. And in most cases a priest should not marry a couple who are cohabiting, since they are not in communion with the church’s teaching. In otherwords, they are in mortal sin and are not eligible for the sacrament of marriage. And a priest should definitely refuse a couple in that state for the sake of their marriage and their souls.

*Mea culpa *that I have expressed myself badly. When I said “Unless there is something I do not understand about it” the it I referred to was not the sacrament of marriage, but [user]THurifer2[/user]'s parish.

My final sentence was a trick-quote from part of the Church’s governance over the form of that sacrament, Canon Law, viz: "Can. 1058 All persons who are not prohibited by law can contract marriage."

While cohabitation *may be *a reason to pastorally delay marriage, and while the intention of the non-Catholic party to a mixed marriage against bringing up children in the faith would seem to be indicative of hardship to come, neither condition is, to my knowledge, an impediment to marriage, which is what [user]THurifer2[/user] had said and what [post=3439635]I had objected to[/post] (in my no doubt clumsy way).

Finally, while approaching the sacrament of marriage while in a state of mortal sin may be to commit a sacrilege, and while that may deny or delay the graces of the sacrament to the sinner, I, for one, am grateful that being a sinner is also not an impediment to marriage.

tee
still not a canon lawyer, but without doubt a sinner

 

[bpbasilphx]

Unless there is something I do not understand about it, if your parish turns away such non-conforming couples, it is doing an injustice. All persons who are not prohibited by law can contract marriage.

**True, but a person can’t get married just by himself. There seems to be reason to question whether the woman in this case is indeed free to contract marriage in the Catholic Church.

Could this be what you don’t understand about it?**

 

[THurifer2]

it is doing an injustice. :twocents:
tee
who is NOT a canon lawyer

Why is it doing the an injustice?

Wouldn’t you want your Doctor telling you that you have cancer that can be easily cured?

The priest doesn’t simply say…YOU CAN"T BE MARRIED HERE…His inquiry of the couple includes pastoral instruction which includes the stipulation the couple not be living together as if they were married. he gives them a chance to see the grave sinfulness of the situation and correct it. A priest has the authority to delay this sacrament…in this case the delay rests in the hands of the couple seeking marriage.

However I am sure this type of moral instruction doesn’t reside in parishes throughout the world (especially here in the US).

In my parish it isn’t uncommon for couples who were married on a Saturday afternoon to show up at Sunday Morning Mass the next day…when this happens the priest always intruduces the new couple (this is after mass of course) to the congregation…One of the few times I agree with applause in church (however this is usulally after the deacon says Mass has ended). they almost always go downstairs for coffee and rolls…

 

[1ke]

Thurifer and Tee-- You’ve hijacked Nina’s thread. Her thread is not a debate on cohabitation and whether couples should be allowed to be married. Maybe you should start another thread if you want to debate this topic.

The OPs question is about a previously married non-Catholic who now wants to marry a Catholic.

To the OP:

Non-Catholics are not bound by Catholic form. They are only bound by form if their OWN denomination requires it (for example Orthodox require specific form while Methodists don’t). So, since she is “generic Christian” I doubt that her denomination required any specific form for validity and therefore getting married on the boat by the “generic” Reverend doesn’t automatically render this marriage invalid in any way.

Remember, the Catholic Church teaches that the COUPLE administer the Sacrament to each other-- the officiant is the witness, not the minister of the Sacrament.

Therefore, this marriage will require investigation.