Marriage Question

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rick43235

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First off, I’m sure to catch a bunch of grief from some members of this forum, but please believe me when I say that I am not posting this just to stir up trouble. I would really appreciate honest opinions.

Some background in as few words as possible: I grew up in the Lutheran church but haven’t really practiced any religion since I graduated high school. Got married in another protestant church at age 23 and divorced eight years later. No children. Now, many years later, I am married to someone who has been a Catholic her whole life. She is from another part of the world, and due to immigration requirements, we had to get married within 90 days of her arrival in the U.S. Consequently, we had a civil ceremony with the idea that we would get married in the Catholic Church at a later date. After attending Mass with my wife every Sunday for over two years, we have finally decided that it was time to get the ball rolling on having our marriage convalidated. I began attending RCIA classes last fall, and this past January had an appointment with our parish priest regarding our marriage situation. It was at that time that I was made aware of the requirement for - yes, that’s right - an annulment. The way the priest described it, the process didn’t seem too bad. But, when I got home and read the application, I found it to be rather upsetting. I understood that the Church would want to inquire into the circumstances of my previous marriage, but I had no idea that it would be such a thorough examination. I’ve had root canals and prostrate exams that were more fun than what the annulment process is going to be. Anyway, I put the application in a drawer and have spent the past two months just trying to wrap my brain around the whole concept of why I should have to go through this. Also, having spent some time reading this forum and getting a better idea of what the Catholic Church teaches (at least what the Church teaches according to forum members), I have reconsidered my plans to convert. Still, for my wife’s benefit, I would like to regularize our marriage so that she can again be in full communion with the Church.

Sorry so long-winded, but this brings me to my real question. My wife is from a country where the Church exerts a powerful political influence. Also, my wife is from a political family, so she is acquainted with some high ranking Church officials. Finally, she spent several years working for a religious community and teaching in a university where many seminarians take classes. Consequently, she is very good friends with many former students who have become priests. Recently, my wife was in contact with one of her former students who works on the staff of the archbishop (who also happens to be a family friend, and who probably owes the family a “political favor” or two). Anyway, long story short, the archbishop said that, if we return to her native country, he would authorize a convalidation of our marriage and issue all the paperwork required to make our marriage “valid.”

Now, I recognize that technically, we would be taking a shortcut around Canon Law, and our priest most likely would not be too happy about the fact that we side-stepped him. Still, we would have the approval of a high ranking Church official and the documents to prove it. So FINALLY, my question is, do you think we would run into any problems with having our marriage recognized as valid in our local diocese?
 
rick43235 said:
First off, I’m sure to catch a bunch of grief from some members of this forum, but please believe me when I say that I am not posting this just to stir up trouble. I would really appreciate honest opinions.

Some background in as few words as possible: I grew up in the Lutheran church but haven’t really practiced any religion since I graduated high school. Got married in another protestant church at age 23 and divorced eight years later. No children. Now, many years later, I am married to someone who has been a Catholic her whole life. She is from another part of the world, and due to immigration requirements, we had to get married within 90 days of her arrival in the U.S. Consequently, we had a civil ceremony with the idea that we would get married in the Catholic Church at a later date. After attending Mass with my wife every Sunday for over two years, we have finally decided that it was time to get the ball rolling on having our marriage convalidated. I began attending RCIA classes last fall, and this past January had an appointment with our parish priest regarding our marriage situation. It was at that time that I was made aware of the requirement for - yes, that’s right - an annulment. The way the priest described it, the process didn’t seem too bad. But, when I got home and read the application, I found it to be rather upsetting. I understood that the Church would want to inquire into the circumstances of my previous marriage, but I had no idea that it would be such a thorough examination. I’ve had root canals and prostrate exams that were more fun than what the annulment process is going to be. Anyway, I put the application in a drawer and have spent the past two months just trying to wrap my brain around the whole concept of why I should have to go through this. Also, having spent some time reading this forum and getting a better idea of what the Catholic Church teaches (at least what the Church teaches according to forum members), I have reconsidered my plans to convert. Still, for my wife’s benefit, I would like to regularize our marriage so that she can again be in full communion with the Church.

Sorry so long-winded, but this brings me to my real question. My wife is from a country where the Church exerts a powerful political influence. Also, my wife is from a political family, so she is acquainted with some high ranking Church officials. Finally, she spent several years working for a religious community and teaching in a university where many seminarians take classes. Consequently, she is very good friends with many former students who have become priests. Recently, my wife was in contact with one of her former students who works on the staff of the archbishop (who also happens to be a family friend, and who probably owes the family a “political favor” or two). Anyway, long story short, the archbishop said that, if we return to her native country, he would authorize a convalidation of our marriage and issue all the paperwork required to make our marriage “valid.”

Now, I recognize that technically, we would be taking a shortcut around Canon Law, and our priest most likely would not be too happy about the fact that we side-stepped him. Still, we would have the approval of a high ranking Church official and the documents to prove it. So FINALLY, my question is, do you think we would run into any problems with having our marriage recognized as valid in our local diocese?
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My initial reaction is “shame on that archbishop”. It is my understanding that a marriage between two baptized persons must always be presumed to be valid until the annulment process has been completed, but I’m no canon lawyer or tribunal member. I’d just apply to your local tribunal and get on with it, whether you plan to convert or not, as anything else sounds dishonest to me.
 
bottom line, your first marriage is considered valid until proven otherwise. If you feel it was not valid, that is that conditions necessary for a valid contract were not present at its inception, you must ask the canon law tribunal of the Church to investigate and make a judgement before you are free to marry a Catholic. If you feel that in fact the marriage was invalid, you should welcome the opportunity to state your case in full. most people coming from divorce find this process to be a healing one. I hope it proves so for you.

you are asking two questions. the first is about you, and is answered thus: you are still married unless and until your first marriage is ruled null, and are not free to remarry.

the second question is about your wife’s situation. The bishop where she now makes her permanent home is her pastor, and no other bishop has jurisdiction over her (unless she is a member of another ritual church, in which case the ordinary who has charge of members of her rite in this country is her bishop).
 
rick43235 said:
First off, I’m sure to catch a bunch of grief from some members of this forum, but please believe me when I say that I am not posting this just to stir up trouble. I would really appreciate honest opinions.

Some background in as few words as possible: I grew up in the Lutheran church but haven’t really practiced any religion since I graduated high school. Got married in another protestant church at age 23 and divorced eight years later. No children. Now, many years later, I am married to someone who has been a Catholic her whole life. She is from another part of the world, and due to immigration requirements, we had to get married within 90 days of her arrival in the U.S. Consequently, we had a civil ceremony with the idea that we would get married in the Catholic Church at a later date. After attending Mass with my wife every Sunday for over two years, we have finally decided that it was time to get the ball rolling on having our marriage convalidated. I began attending RCIA classes last fall, and this past January had an appointment with our parish priest regarding our marriage situation. It was at that time that I was made aware of the requirement for - yes, that’s right - an annulment. The way the priest described it, the process didn’t seem too bad. But, when I got home and read the application, I found it to be rather upsetting. I understood that the Church would want to inquire into the circumstances of my previous marriage, but I had no idea that it would be such a thorough examination. I’ve had root canals and prostrate exams that were more fun than what the annulment process is going to be. Anyway, I put the application in a drawer and have spent the past two months just trying to wrap my brain around the whole concept of why I should have to go through this. Also, having spent some time reading this forum and getting a better idea of what the Catholic Church teaches (at least what the Church teaches according to forum members), I have reconsidered my plans to convert. Still, for my wife’s benefit, I would like to regularize our marriage so that she can again be in full communion with the Church.

Sorry so long-winded, but this brings me to my real question. My wife is from a country where the Church exerts a powerful political influence. Also, my wife is from a political family, so she is acquainted with some high ranking Church officials. Finally, she spent several years working for a religious community and teaching in a university where many seminarians take classes. Consequently, she is very good friends with many former students who have become priests. Recently, my wife was in contact with one of her former students who works on the staff of the archbishop (who also happens to be a family friend, and who probably owes the family a “political favor” or two). Anyway, long story short, the archbishop said that, if we return to her native country, he would authorize a convalidation of our marriage and issue all the paperwork required to make our marriage “valid.”

Now, I recognize that technically, we would be taking a shortcut around Canon Law, and our priest most likely would not be too happy about the fact that we side-stepped him. Still, we would have the approval of a high ranking Church official and the documents to prove it. So FINALLY, my question is, do you think we would run into any problems with having our marriage recognized as valid in our local diocese?
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Yes, you would because the Annulment would not be documented anywhere.

It’s no different then knowing the local sheriff and having him tell you it’s ok to shoot your neighbor, because he bugs you. If called he would not investigate very hard and rule it accidential. Do you REALLY have permission to shoot your neighbor?
 
If I were you, I would ask a canon lawyer for your diocese. You should be able to contact one by e-mail from the web site for your diocese. Don’t accept as final any answer you get from a post on this web site; likewise with the teachings of the Church. Don’t accept what you find on these posts as the last word in Church doctrine. Go to trustworthy sources: Catechism of the Catholic Church, good orthodox priests and good canon lawyers, etc.

But even good priests can be mistaken. The priest and DRE of a local parish both told me my marriage needs to be convalidated in the Catholic Church, so I contacted a canon lawyer for the diocese, who told me it is not required in my particular (somewhat unusual) case. It’s probably required in your case, but I wouldn’t assume that the person your wife knows would necessarily be breaking Church law. He very possibly intends to follow Church law, but just speed up the annulment process a little, based on his knowledge of the system. I don’t know enough about the workings of the Church to say this is impossible.

I commend you for trying to do the right thing. May God bless you.
 
The annulment process is an earthly investigation of a spiritual reality. God will hold you to that spiritual reality… Why on earth would you not want to find out the truth in an honest upright way?

The reality exists, whether you “short cut” canon law or not. God will know if you tried to short cut it. What if your first marriage really was valid, but you short cut the process and had it declared null anyway? (assumming this is really what would happen…I kind of doubt it). Your “marriage” now would not be sacramental, and therefore you would be living without the grace from the sacrament. Sure, you can tell yourself that the higher ups told you things were ok, but if it was done illicitly, it really isn’t.

Find out if your first marriage was valid…then stick by your vows if it was.
 
puzzleannie said:
bottom line, your first marriage is considered valid until proven otherwise. If you feel it was not valid, that is that conditions necessary for a valid contract were not present at its inception, you must ask the canon law tribunal of the Church to investigate and make a judgement before you are free to marry a Catholic. If you feel that in fact the marriage was invalid, you should welcome the opportunity to state your case in full. most people coming from divorce find this process to be a healing one. I hope it proves so for you.

While I am FAR from being an expert in Canon Law, my feeble attempts at online study lead me to believe that my former marriage could easily be ruled invalid according to the Church. Nevertheless, in my heart, I have no doubt that my first marriage was a valid one. A sad mistake maybe, but certainly not invalid by any measure other than Canon Law. Regarding the annulment process, I’m glad that others find it to be healing. As for myself, I doubt that I would bring anything positive away from the experience - except a possible annulment. But, I thank you for your well-wishes.

you are asking two questions. the first is about you, and is answered thus: you are still married unless and until your first marriage is ruled null, and are not free to remarry.

***While I understand that this is your belief and the position of the Church, personally, I consider myself to be just as married as anyone else. Further, other than how it affects my wife, I find that my concern over Church law grows less and less with each passing day. ***

the second question is about your wife’s situation. The bishop where she now makes her permanent home is her pastor, and no other bishop has jurisdiction over her (unless she is a member of another ritual church, in which case the ordinary who has charge of members of her rite in this country is her bishop).

***Yes, this is where I anticipated that a problem might arise. We are members of record at the parish where we have been going to Mass. ***

I appreciate your feedback.
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Cathy said:
…I wouldn’t assume that the person your wife knows would necessarily be breaking Church law. He very possibly intends to follow Church law, but just speed up the annulment process a little, based on his knowledge of the system.

Yes, this might very possibly be the case.

I commend you for trying to do the right thing. May God bless you.

Thank you for your kind thoughts. May God bless you too.
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agapewolf said:
The annulment process is an earthly investigation of a spiritual reality.

***While I respect the right of the Church to make rules for it’s members, I was married in a non-Catholic church with a non-Catholic’s understanding of marriage. Add to that the fact that this took place many, many years ago, and I have a hard time believing that anything the Tribunal says about my first marriage is relevant, other than how it affects my wife. ***

Find out if your first marriage was valid…then stick by your vows if it was.

***Just for the sake of this discussion, let’s assume that the Tribunal ruled that my first marriage was valid. Are you suggesting that I divorce my current wife in order to “stick by my vows” from my first marriage? *** :eek:
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Cathy said:
If I were you, I would ask a canon lawyer for your diocese. You should be able to contact one by e-mail from the web site for your diocese. Don’t accept as final any answer you get from a post on this web site; likewise with the teachings of the Church. Don’t accept what you find on these posts as the last word in Church doctrine. Go to trustworthy sources: Catechism of the Catholic Church, good orthodox priests and good canon lawyers, etc.

But even good priests can be mistaken. The priest and DRE of a local parish both told me my marriage needs to be convalidated in the Catholic Church, so I contacted a canon lawyer for the diocese, who told me it is not required in my particular (somewhat unusual) case. It’s probably required in your case, but I wouldn’t assume that the person your wife knows would necessarily be breaking Church law. He very possibly intends to follow Church law, but just speed up the annulment process a little, based on his knowledge of the system. I don’t know enough about the workings of the Church to say this is impossible.

I commend you for trying to do the right thing. May God bless you.
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We should all go home, What we say here is not trustworthy?
 
Rick said:
*While I respect the right of the Church to make rules for it’s members, I was married in a non-Catholic church with a non-Catholic’s understanding of marriage. Add to that the fact that this took place many, many years ago, and I have a hard time believing that anything the Tribunal says about my first marriage is relevant, other than how it affects my wife. *

*Just for the sake of this discussion, let’s assume that the Tribunal ruled that my first marriage was valid. Are you suggesting that I divorce my current wife in order to “stick by my vows” from my first marriage? *

The questions I am going to ask or not things I’m expecting you to answer here, or to me. These are rhetorical questions based on the things you’ve shared.

To the first point…What is meant by “non-Catholic understanding of marrage”? Did you not mean the vows you took when you said all the days of your life? Are you saying that only Catholic marriages are bound to the vows? This statement is basically saying that only Catholic marriages are ones that should be held to the standard of staying together. How long ago has nothing to do with it. The church isn’t “making rules” for its members arbitrarily. Again, its an earthly process that is looking at a spiritual reality. The church expects people to honor their vows. When an investigation is made, it is looking at whether it was sacramental…if there was grace or not.

To the 2nd point, I did not say divorce your wife, but you have to seriously ask yourself…if you took vows FOR LIFE…why aren’t you honoring them? You just said yourself that in your heart you know your first marriage was vaild? You made vows, and you think it was valid, why did you civilly marry someone else? It is very possible that it wasn’t a sacrament, and the tribunal can investigate that. That would mean there would be no grace received, in which would make sense that things didn’t work out.

What I am suggesting by honoring your original marriage vows, if it were to come to that, is that you can no longer have marital relations with your civil wife, because you are not validly married. and before you react, you should know that there are plenty of folks who do that, for the sake of their own souls. Remeber, this is about your civil wife’s soul also, not just yours. Your actions could be putting her soul into jeopardy.
 
agapewolf said:
The questions I am going to ask or not things I’m expecting you to answer here, or to me. These are rhetorical questions based on the things you’ve shared.

Even though you framed your questions as being rhetorical, since you seem to have asked them in a spirit of goodwill and concern, I am going to attempt to answer them.

To the first point…What is meant by “non-Catholic understanding of marrage”? Did you not mean the vows you took when you said all the days of your life? Are you saying that only Catholic marriages are bound to the vows? This statement is basically saying that only Catholic marriages are ones that should be held to the standard of staying together. How long ago has nothing to do with it. The church isn’t “making rules” for its members arbitrarily. Again, its an earthly process that is looking at a spiritual reality. The church expects people to honor their vows. When an investigation is made, it is looking at whether it was sacramental…if there was grace or not.

**When I took my original wedding vows I sincerely meant it when I said, “…'til death do we part.” Sadly, we simply weren’t compatible. We were crazy in love, but not compatible. We honesty tried for eight years to make it work, but the fact is that we were unhappy together. I can’t believe that a loving God would insist that two people who make each other miserable should stay together for the rest of their lives based on a foolish mistake made at such a young age. As I mentioned earlier, I believe that if a Tribunal examined my first marriage, grounds for an annulment would be found. I guess I’m just having a hard time accepting that a Catholic tribunal should have anything to say about my non-Catholic marriage. **

What I am suggesting by honoring your original marriage vows, if it were to come to that, is that you can no longer have marital relations with your civil wife, because you are not validly married. and before you react, you should know that there are plenty of folks who do that, for the sake of their own souls.

**In my reading of this forum I have been exposed to some very interesting concepts. Among them are “living as brother and sister,” “foregoing the marital embrace,” and “no longer having marital relations.” You assert that “there are plenty of folks who do that for the sake of their own souls.” Respectfully, I have to suggest that while some people may claim to live this way, I doubt very seriously that many actually do - no matter what they might tell their priest. Honesty, this makes no sense to me. While this might be getting a bit off topic, one of the reasons I am having second thoughts about completing the conversion process is what I perceive as being an almost pathological attitude about sexuality in the Church. I sometimes hear people express the opinion that the Catholic Church is a cult - a notion that I have always flatly rejected. In fact, I still reject it. That said, even I have to concede that an organization that tries to regulate who it’s members can and cannot marry, and in what manner they can express their sexuality, is displaying cult-like attributes. **

Despite our disagreement, I sincerely appreciate your well-meaning thoughts.
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Please read “Good news about sex and marriage” by Christopher West.

And the reason that the Catholic church has something to say about non- Catholic marriages is because it actually honors other faiths, and believes that they can be valid as well.

If you think that they shouldn’t have “Something to say” regarding a non- Catholic marriage, then you think the Catholic church should be MORE “cultish”…that is, they shouldn’t recognize other faith marriages. You can’t have it both ways.
 
You know what, I went through an annulment and I agree it is very, very in depth process. However honestly that is not one that should be shunned at all. Yes it gives the tribunal FULL insight as to wether the marriage is valid or not. Also, if you fully engulf yourself into the process it helps your own self see what the problem was and it is a healing process.

There there is a lot of personal info trust me, it is not made public.

I recommend that if you love your wife that you go through the process, for you, for her, for God.
 
puzzleannie pointed out that the archbishop currently has no canonical jusitiction over your wife. Please don’t take shortcuts. You think God doesn’t know? Does the archbishop think God doesn’t know?:mad:

I have been through the process of nullity. 🙂 Yes, it is in-depth. It is also very cleansing, and very healing for the first putative marriage. Put in the time and do it right, please. If you don’t think you are being treated fairly (and you might not be) consult a canon lawyer or the St.Joseph Foundation. But no cut-corners.:tsktsk:
 
agapewolf said:
If you think that they shouldn’t have “Something to say” regarding a non- Catholic marriage, then you think the Catholic church should be MORE “cultish”…that is, they shouldn’t recognize other faith marriages. You can’t have it both ways.
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I’m not saying that the marriages of other faiths should not be recognized by the Church. Quite the opposite. What I am having a hard time accepting, however, is the assumption that a Catholic tribunal can examine the circumstances of individual non-Catholic marriages and then make a ruling regarding the validity of those marriages based on Catholic principles. I guess I see it as kind of a jurisdictional issue.
 
ljprevo said:
I recommend that if you love your wife that you go through the process, for you, for her, for God.
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As attractive as the option mentioned in my original post is, I will probably end up going through the annumlent process.

Your kind thoughts are appreciated.
 
OutinChgoburbs said:
puzzleannie pointed out that the archbishop currently has no canonical jusitiction over your wife. Please don’t take shortcuts. You think God doesn’t know? Does the archbishop think God doesn’t know?:mad:

**As I mentioned in an earlier post, I suspected that this might be a stumbling block. Still, if one bishop says it’s OK, and another one says it’s not, I have to wonder if God really cares about canonical jurisdiction. **

I have been through the process of nullity. 🙂 Yes, it is in-depth. It is also very cleansing, and very healing for the first putative marriage. Put in the time and do it right, please. If you don’t think you are being treated fairly (and you might not be) consult a canon lawyer or the St.Joseph Foundation. But no cut-corners.:tsktsk:

**My first marriage ended many years ago. I have long since come to terms with what happened and I am at peace with the situation. I doubt very seriously that I would find the annumlent process to be cleansing or healing. Further, given that my first wife remarried long ago, I suspect that she would find the process to be very intrusive.

To the Church’s credit, other than the fact that I am being subjected to it in the first place, I have found nothing unfair in the procedures of the annulment process. **
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