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ljprevo
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You are most welcome, I will have you and your wife in my prayers.
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rick43235
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After struggling with this situation for a few weeks and giving it several hours of prayerful consideration, I finally went to our priest to discuss this. Although I could sense that he thought I was “pulling a fast one,” in the end he said, “Well, if you come back with a document signed by a Cardinal that says you have a valid marriage, who am I to question it?”My wife is from a country where the Church exerts a powerful political influence. Also, my wife is from a political family, so she is acquainted with some high ranking Church officials. Finally, she spent several years working for a religious community and teaching in a university where many seminarians take classes. Consequently, she is very good friends with many former students who have become priests. Recently, my wife was in contact with one of her former students who works on the staff of the archbishop (who also happens to be a family friend, and who probably owes the family a “political favor” or two). Anyway, long story short, the archbishop said that, if we return to her native country, he would authorize a convalidation of our marriage and issue all the paperwork required to make our marriage “valid.”
So, I’m shopping for airline tickets.
B
bilop
Guest
Wait, aren’t you pulling a fast one? Basically, you are using a political favor to circumvent the Church’s annulment process.After struggling with this situation for a few weeks and giving it several hours of prayerful consideration, I finally went to our priest to discuss this. Although I could sense that he thought I was “pulling a fast one,” in the end he said, “Well, if you come back with a document signed by a Cardinal that says you have a valid marriage, who am I to question it?”
So, I’m shopping for airline tickets.
Do you want to explain that one to Christ on judgement day? You are also imperilling the souls of the Priests you ask to be complicit in this. I’d pray some more.
God Bless
T
Twelve
Guest
Hello Rick43235! From the sounds of things your wife is very true to her Catholic religion. How does she feel about this decision to buy airline tickets and not go through the annulment process “officially”?
R
rick43235
Guest
Wait, aren’t you pulling a fast one? Basically, you are using a political favor to circumvent the Church’s annulment process.
Yes, that’s exactly what I’m doing. And while they might not admit it, I bet most people who find themselves in the position of having to go through the annulment process would do the same thing if they could.
Do you want to explain that one to Christ on judgement day?
While Christ may have established some principles regarding marriage and divorce, He didn’t set up the annulment process. Consequently, I’m not too worried.
R
rick43235
Guest
To be honest, this is the one thing that might have persuaded me to suffer through the annulment process. My wife, however, has assured me that she is perfectly comfortable with going home and having our marriage convalidated by the archbishop there. As she explained it to me, she is very confident in her faith, and she tries to the best Christian and Catholic that she can. But, as several of her former colleagues and students (who are priests) have told her, the Church in the United States is much more conservative and “hung up on rules” than it is in other parts of the world. The attitude of the archbishop in her hometown is that it is better to make the Sacraments of the Church more easily obtainable than it is to erect artificial barriers. That is the attitude she was exposed to her whole life, and that is the attitude she maintains. If that’s good enough for her, and if it’s good enough for her hometown archbishop, then it’s good enough for me.Hello Rick43235! From the sounds of things your wife is very true to her Catholic religion. How does she feel about this decision to buy airline tickets and not go through the annulment process “officially”?
T
Twelve
Guest
I might get slammed for this, I hope not. To me, the annulment process was important so that I might freely receive Communion at Mass. The process did not grant me peace, closure or any other “peace of mind”. God knew, and I knew, why I married and why I divorced. What DID grant me peace, closure and peace of mind, and still does to this day, is was walking to the altar for the Eucharist
The way I see it, what is important here is your wife’s conscience and how she feels about this method and receiving the Eucharist. And, for you too, should you decide to become Catholic. I think it shows your love for her, and respect for her faith, that you were willing to go to whatever length it took so that she could be fully engaged in her faith.
Just my thoughts…
The way I see it, what is important here is your wife’s conscience and how she feels about this method and receiving the Eucharist. And, for you too, should you decide to become Catholic. I think it shows your love for her, and respect for her faith, that you were willing to go to whatever length it took so that she could be fully engaged in her faith.
Just my thoughts…
R
rick43235
Guest
The way I see it, what is important here is your wife’s conscience and how she feels about this method and receiving the Eucharist.
My wife WAS receiving the Eucharist until one evening, when she accompanied me to RCIA and the subject of marriage and divorce came up, and the priest said that anyone living in an “invalid” marriage should not be going to communion. From that point forward, she stopped going. I was concerned about this because I assumed it was very important to her. When I asked her about it, she said that she stopped going not because she believed that it was a sin, but because she didn’t want to put the priest in the position of giving her communion while feeling that he shouldn’t. Anyway, she has assured me that once our marriage is convalidated, she will start going to communion again. I plan to talk to Father about it again, and if he is uncomfortable about the method we used to secure the convalidation, then I guess we’ll start going to another parish. My wife, however, assures me that her conscience is clear.
And, for you too, should you decide to become Catholic. I think it shows your love for her, and respect for her faith, that you were willing to go to whatever length it took so that she could be fully engaged in her faith.
Well, as I mentioned before, I was going to RCIA, but with the clear understanding that I would not be entering the Church at Easter due to my “irregular” marriage situation. Even so, I found it to be informative and instructive, and I was enjoying the class. Then, as I became more familiar with what the annulment process entailed, my enthusiasm began to wane just a bit. Then, I found this forum, and it just about killed any desire I have to become Catholic. The convalidation process I am doing just for my wife.
Just my thoughts…
Your thoughts are appreciated.
T
Twelve
Guest
I’m stuck over here, looking for the right words. I keep writing, deleting and re-writing the same thing.Guess I’ll quit trying to be eloquent and just say this. Please, don’t let this forum be the reason you stop considering Catholicism.
We are a group of fallen people here at this forum. The Church, on the other hand is true, and beautiful and the Mass is the perfect prayer.
I cannot know what is in your wife’s heart, or what it might mean to her, but I can tell you that it would mean the world to me if my husband were in front of, or behind me, in line for Communion at Mass. If he were by my side in prayer and love of the Lord.
That is not to say you should become Catholic only for your wife’s sake. But surely considering it for the sake of worshiping together is bettter than not considering it because of words you may disagree with here.
We are a group of fallen people here at this forum. The Church, on the other hand is true, and beautiful and the Mass is the perfect prayer.
I cannot know what is in your wife’s heart, or what it might mean to her, but I can tell you that it would mean the world to me if my husband were in front of, or behind me, in line for Communion at Mass. If he were by my side in prayer and love of the Lord.
That is not to say you should become Catholic only for your wife’s sake. But surely considering it for the sake of worshiping together is bettter than not considering it because of words you may disagree with here.
O
otjm
Guest
A couple of random thoughts.
The Catholic Church professes that it is the one true Church of Christ; that it can and does trace its roots right back to the Apostles; that Christ gave the Church 7 Sacraments as means of obtaining grace directly and specifically (that is, they are not simply ordinances).
Two of those Sacraments are Baptism and Marriage.
Baptism in the Catholic Church is done ordinarily by one who is ordained; however, the Church recognizes as valid any baptism done in another church which is in accord with how the Church does it- that is, the Trinitarian formula (I baptize you in the name of the Father…) and with water - by pouring, sprinkling or submersion.
So your baptism, assuming you did not have a pastor or someone do something out of the ordinary (e.g. use some substance other than water, or a formula such as "I baptize you in the name of the Creator…) is valid in the eyes of the Church. If you joined the Catholic Church you would not be baptized again. In short, you are a member in part, in the Church, but not in the whole.
Having been validly baptized, the Church holds that you, too can have a marriage that is recognized as a Sacrament. In the Catholic Church, the couple adminster the Sacrament to each other (the priest is the official witness; but he does not “marry” you). In a non-Catholic wedding, you would administer the Sacrament to your spouse (and she to you), and the priest as official witness is not required (well, you’re not Catholic, so Catholic rules don’t apply).
The basis of the permanence of Marriage is firmly rooted in the New Testament; both the Gospels and St. Paul speak rather forcefully about Marriage and its permanence. So even from the earliest Church permanence was recognized as an element of a Sacrament of Marriage.
Why does the Church concern itself about your prior marriage because you were not Catholic? Read the above; you were validly baptized; so the question then becomes, since you were then capable of confecting the Sacrament of Marriage, did you do so?
The whole issue of the tribunal is this: was there the necessary consent to marry as the Church understands the Sacrament? Did both you and your wife intend a permanent relationship, in Christ, to the exclusion of all others, and open to new life?
Another way of looking at it (glass half empty/full) is: was there any impediment at the time of the ceremony, that would prevent the parties from confecting the Sacrament?
There are several books (small, closer to booklets) availabvle about annulments, which discuss the various impediments, if you are interested; most Catholic bookstores should have a copy.
The Catholic Church takes Marriage quite seriously. You are right that getting into the documentation concerning your prior marriage can be quite lengthy, and some find it quite painful to reopen old wounds. I would hope, for the sake of both of you, that you would consider going through the process. If nothing else, I would hope that it would deepen your committment to Christ, and to what marriage is about. The process is difficult. It is also a fact that not all who seek an annulment receive one. And the seminarians are correct, at least in part, that Americans tend to look at Church law with a more Germanic understanding than a Mediterranean understanding.
Perhaps one of the harder aspects is that the Church does not put determination of Truth - Revelation, or the Gospel - solely into the hands of each individual to determine the rightness or wrongness or meaning of it. Protestants do, and that can cause a good deal of grief, hesitancy and misunderstanding where one comes somewhat intimately in contact with the Church, as you are now with your Catholic wife.
I would suspect, that if you take the route of a Catholic official out of country, and you later decide to convert to the Catholic Church, that this issue may cause some future disquiet in you. We all would like simple solutions, particularly when we find ourselves in a pickle due to prior choices. But what appear to be simple solutions are not always later seen as simple, nor necessarily as solutions. I would urge you to stick with the pastor here and pursue the issue.
The Catholic Church professes that it is the one true Church of Christ; that it can and does trace its roots right back to the Apostles; that Christ gave the Church 7 Sacraments as means of obtaining grace directly and specifically (that is, they are not simply ordinances).
Two of those Sacraments are Baptism and Marriage.
Baptism in the Catholic Church is done ordinarily by one who is ordained; however, the Church recognizes as valid any baptism done in another church which is in accord with how the Church does it- that is, the Trinitarian formula (I baptize you in the name of the Father…) and with water - by pouring, sprinkling or submersion.
So your baptism, assuming you did not have a pastor or someone do something out of the ordinary (e.g. use some substance other than water, or a formula such as "I baptize you in the name of the Creator…) is valid in the eyes of the Church. If you joined the Catholic Church you would not be baptized again. In short, you are a member in part, in the Church, but not in the whole.
Having been validly baptized, the Church holds that you, too can have a marriage that is recognized as a Sacrament. In the Catholic Church, the couple adminster the Sacrament to each other (the priest is the official witness; but he does not “marry” you). In a non-Catholic wedding, you would administer the Sacrament to your spouse (and she to you), and the priest as official witness is not required (well, you’re not Catholic, so Catholic rules don’t apply).
The basis of the permanence of Marriage is firmly rooted in the New Testament; both the Gospels and St. Paul speak rather forcefully about Marriage and its permanence. So even from the earliest Church permanence was recognized as an element of a Sacrament of Marriage.
Why does the Church concern itself about your prior marriage because you were not Catholic? Read the above; you were validly baptized; so the question then becomes, since you were then capable of confecting the Sacrament of Marriage, did you do so?
The whole issue of the tribunal is this: was there the necessary consent to marry as the Church understands the Sacrament? Did both you and your wife intend a permanent relationship, in Christ, to the exclusion of all others, and open to new life?
Another way of looking at it (glass half empty/full) is: was there any impediment at the time of the ceremony, that would prevent the parties from confecting the Sacrament?
There are several books (small, closer to booklets) availabvle about annulments, which discuss the various impediments, if you are interested; most Catholic bookstores should have a copy.
The Catholic Church takes Marriage quite seriously. You are right that getting into the documentation concerning your prior marriage can be quite lengthy, and some find it quite painful to reopen old wounds. I would hope, for the sake of both of you, that you would consider going through the process. If nothing else, I would hope that it would deepen your committment to Christ, and to what marriage is about. The process is difficult. It is also a fact that not all who seek an annulment receive one. And the seminarians are correct, at least in part, that Americans tend to look at Church law with a more Germanic understanding than a Mediterranean understanding.
Perhaps one of the harder aspects is that the Church does not put determination of Truth - Revelation, or the Gospel - solely into the hands of each individual to determine the rightness or wrongness or meaning of it. Protestants do, and that can cause a good deal of grief, hesitancy and misunderstanding where one comes somewhat intimately in contact with the Church, as you are now with your Catholic wife.
I would suspect, that if you take the route of a Catholic official out of country, and you later decide to convert to the Catholic Church, that this issue may cause some future disquiet in you. We all would like simple solutions, particularly when we find ourselves in a pickle due to prior choices. But what appear to be simple solutions are not always later seen as simple, nor necessarily as solutions. I would urge you to stick with the pastor here and pursue the issue.
J
jbebeau
Guest
Rick,
Just as a civil divorce can be a messy and hurtful process, so can an annulment (properly speaking a decree of nullity), since it involves a very personal relationship between two people that is now broken.
The details of Church Law regarding Marriage are complex, because the Church’s understanding of Marriage as a Sacrament is very encompassing. It can be very difficult for someone who is not a Canonist to tackle it properly. In the seminary we had a course on Canon Law in general, and then one who course on just Marriage Issues and Canon Law. As part of that course I had to do a book review and the one I was assigned was: Annulments and the Catholic Church by Edward Peters, J.C., J.C.D. It is done in a Q&A format with questions sent in by people. A question is really close to your situation so instead of my trying to answer them, I’ll let the gentleman with a doctorate in canon law answer them. I hope this is of help. There will be additional information in the answers, if something doesn’t make sense, please ask.
Question 27: Please explain one thing for me. Long before I as Catholic, I was married and divorced, and then I remarried and have been blessed with many years of happiness ever since. I am planning to enter the Church, but there is all this concern about my first marriage. I understand that Catholics are not allowed to divorce, and I will not get divorced as a Catholic. But why should that first marriage from my non-Catholic days be of such concern? It was over years ago. I feel as if I’m now being held to rules that didn’t apply to me then.
**Another, if perhaps blunter, way of putting your question would be to ask whether the Church accepts the validity of non-Catholic marriages. Good, heavens, I hope it does, and in fact the Church does presume the validity of non-Catholic Marriages.
At the risk of some oversimplification, anything that more or less looks like a marriage among non-Catholics is going to be presumed by the Church to have been a marriage and hence worthy of the respect due marriage. What you are being held to is not so much the Church’s law on marriage but what the Church considers to be God’s law on marriage. In most cases this implies permanence (lasting till death) and exclusivity (having only on spouse) on marriage (reflected in, but not derived from, 1983 CIC 1056).
But maybe you still do not see the difference? Try this: Canonical form, for example, is a creation of ecclesiastical law and applies only to Catholics. You are not being held to canonical form–meaning, by the way that you cannot use canonical form issues to impugn your non-Catholic wedding, although the Church generally expects some type of religious or civil wedding ceremony between non-Catholics. On the other hand, basic matrimonial capacity and consent issues, based at least in part on divine and natural law, could bind even non-Catholics and hence could be used as the basis for challenging a non-Catholic marriage.
Thus, whatever kind of first marriage you went through seems to meet the very minimum requirements for a presumably valid, albeit non-Catholic marriage, and hence, for as long as your former spouse is alive, the Church will consider you bound by that first marriage unless and until its nullity is proven in accord with canon law.
**
On other point, unless you are the Pope (who is the supreme legislator), it doesn’t matter how high you are in the Church. The archbishop in her home country does not have any jurisdiction in the matters, and thus any action he attempts may in fact be invalid. It is a delicate situation.
Just as a civil divorce can be a messy and hurtful process, so can an annulment (properly speaking a decree of nullity), since it involves a very personal relationship between two people that is now broken.
The details of Church Law regarding Marriage are complex, because the Church’s understanding of Marriage as a Sacrament is very encompassing. It can be very difficult for someone who is not a Canonist to tackle it properly. In the seminary we had a course on Canon Law in general, and then one who course on just Marriage Issues and Canon Law. As part of that course I had to do a book review and the one I was assigned was: Annulments and the Catholic Church by Edward Peters, J.C., J.C.D. It is done in a Q&A format with questions sent in by people. A question is really close to your situation so instead of my trying to answer them, I’ll let the gentleman with a doctorate in canon law answer them. I hope this is of help. There will be additional information in the answers, if something doesn’t make sense, please ask.
Question 27: Please explain one thing for me. Long before I as Catholic, I was married and divorced, and then I remarried and have been blessed with many years of happiness ever since. I am planning to enter the Church, but there is all this concern about my first marriage. I understand that Catholics are not allowed to divorce, and I will not get divorced as a Catholic. But why should that first marriage from my non-Catholic days be of such concern? It was over years ago. I feel as if I’m now being held to rules that didn’t apply to me then.
**Another, if perhaps blunter, way of putting your question would be to ask whether the Church accepts the validity of non-Catholic marriages. Good, heavens, I hope it does, and in fact the Church does presume the validity of non-Catholic Marriages.
At the risk of some oversimplification, anything that more or less looks like a marriage among non-Catholics is going to be presumed by the Church to have been a marriage and hence worthy of the respect due marriage. What you are being held to is not so much the Church’s law on marriage but what the Church considers to be God’s law on marriage. In most cases this implies permanence (lasting till death) and exclusivity (having only on spouse) on marriage (reflected in, but not derived from, 1983 CIC 1056).
But maybe you still do not see the difference? Try this: Canonical form, for example, is a creation of ecclesiastical law and applies only to Catholics. You are not being held to canonical form–meaning, by the way that you cannot use canonical form issues to impugn your non-Catholic wedding, although the Church generally expects some type of religious or civil wedding ceremony between non-Catholics. On the other hand, basic matrimonial capacity and consent issues, based at least in part on divine and natural law, could bind even non-Catholics and hence could be used as the basis for challenging a non-Catholic marriage.
Thus, whatever kind of first marriage you went through seems to meet the very minimum requirements for a presumably valid, albeit non-Catholic marriage, and hence, for as long as your former spouse is alive, the Church will consider you bound by that first marriage unless and until its nullity is proven in accord with canon law.
**
On other point, unless you are the Pope (who is the supreme legislator), it doesn’t matter how high you are in the Church. The archbishop in her home country does not have any jurisdiction in the matters, and thus any action he attempts may in fact be invalid. It is a delicate situation.
R
rick43235
Guest
otjm & jbebeau,
Thank you for the information regarding Canon Law and the Church’s position on marriage and divorce. It was helpful in that it reinforced my previous understanding of the subject.
Your writing, deleting and re-writing efforts are most appreciated. Your words have caused me to re-examine my thoughts on conversion. Thank you.
Thank you for the information regarding Canon Law and the Church’s position on marriage and divorce. It was helpful in that it reinforced my previous understanding of the subject.
Twelve,I’m stuck over here, looking for the right words. I keep writing, deleting and re-writing the same thing.Guess I’ll quit trying to be eloquent and just say this. Please, don’t let this forum be the reason you stop considering Catholicism.
I cannot know what is in your wife’s heart, or what it might mean to her, but I can tell you that it would mean the world to me if my husband were in front of, or behind me, in line for Communion at Mass. If he were by my side in prayer and love of the Lord.
Your writing, deleting and re-writing efforts are most appreciated. Your words have caused me to re-examine my thoughts on conversion. Thank you.
R
rinnie
Guest
BUT IS IT GOOD ENOUGH FOR GOD? I know that the church isnt perfect and Priests are human too. But they do their best. How can they know if someone lies to them or tells the truth. But here is how i see it and it may be silly. Okay say someone deserves an annulment and thru lies does not get one. Dont you think God knows that. Now the next person gets one thru the same thing, dont you think God knows that? I mean the bottom line if you know in your heart you should not have one by the church but you pulled a FAST ONE what good did it do you? Who is going to get into heaven first the one who was punished unfairly and didnt get to receive the sacrament. Or the one who pulled a fast one and did? Thats is what my Religion is about God knows a heart. Who cares about anything else? Just a thought.To be honest, this is the one thing that might have persuaded me to suffer through the annulment process. My wife, however, has assured me that she is perfectly comfortable with going home and having our marriage convalidated by the archbishop there. As she explained it to me, she is very confident in her faith, and she tries to the best Christian and Catholic that she can. But, as several of her former colleagues and students (who are priests) have told her, the Church in the United States is much more conservative and “hung up on rules” than it is in other parts of the world. The attitude of the archbishop in her hometown is that it is better to make the Sacraments of the Church more easily obtainable than it is to erect artificial barriers. That is the attitude she was exposed to her whole life, and that is the attitude she maintains. If that’s good enough for her, and if it’s good enough for her hometown archbishop, then it’s good enough for me.
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