Marriage question

  • Thread starter Thread starter snowblossom
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
S

snowblossom

Guest
My husband and I were married in a civil ceremony about ten years ago. I expressed interest in the past few years in resuming life as a Catholic. Knowing that a non-sacramental marriage was an impediment, I went to talk to our deacon. He really wants us to have a convalidation ceremony. My husband flat-out refuses. He has no interest in being Catholic and doesn’t want anything to do with a convalidation on moral principle. He’s insulted that anyone would question our marriage’s legitimacy. I believe we may have grounds for a radical sanation, because I believe we fulfill the criteria, but when I tentatively raised the issue to the deacon, he basically said to just get my husband to do the convalidation no matter what. So I’m kind of stuck at the moment… Should I seek a second opinion?

To further complicate things, my husband was always under the assumption that he was baptized in the Catholic church as an infant. He attended a Catholic school briefly and received First Communion and thereafter received it quite a few times before he stopped attending church as a teenager. However, when I went looking, I was unable to track down a baptism certificate for him (I don’t know how they didn’t confirm it first before allowing him to do F.C.) - the school said it was missing from his file. I had him ask his mother about it, and she said something vague about him being baptized in a “Christian ceremony” - but she doesn’t remember what church it was, if it exists anymore, no other family members remember it… It sounds shady at best. So apparently he was never baptized? But he took Communion thinking he was… There are records and photos of him at his First Communion. It sounds very complicated. :confused:

Could someone please help sort out for me how I might proceed sorting this mess out… :confused:
 
snowblossom said:
My husband and I were married in a civil ceremony about ten years ago. I expressed interest in the past few years in resuming life as a Catholic. Knowing that a non-sacramental marriage was an impediment, I went to talk to our deacon. He really wants us to have a convalidation ceremony. My husband flat-out refuses. He has no interest in being Catholic and doesn’t want anything to do with a convalidation on moral principle. He’s insulted that anyone would question our marriage’s legitimacy. I believe we may have grounds for a radical sanation, because I believe we fulfill the criteria, but when I tentatively raised the issue to the deacon, he basically said to just get my husband to do the convalidation no matter what. So I’m kind of stuck at the moment… Should I seek a second opinion?

To further complicate things, my husband was always under the assumption that he was baptized in the Catholic church as an infant. He attended a Catholic school briefly and received First Communion and thereafter received it quite a few times before he stopped attending church as a teenager. However, when I went looking, I was unable to track down a baptism certificate for him (I don’t know how they didn’t confirm it first before allowing him to do F.C.) - the school said it was missing from his file. I had him ask his mother about it, and she said something vague about him being baptized in a “Christian ceremony” - but she doesn’t remember what church it was, if it exists anymore, no other family members remember it… It sounds shady at best. So apparently he was never baptized? But he took Communion thinking he was… There are records and photos of him at his First Communion. It sounds very complicated. :confused:

Could someone please help sort out for me how I might proceed sorting this mess out… :confused:
Click to expand...
I would repost in the liturgy and sacraments forum if I were you–you’ll get more expert advice on the technical aspects.

Although the family forum is probably a good bet on handling the interpersonal side of this.

My best suggestion is to wait until you have a big occasion (your birthday, anniversary, Christmas) and if he asks you what you want, tell him that you want a convalidation as your gift. And then ask for the same thing every single time until he does it.
 
I was told this topic might be a better fit for this forum…

**

My husband and I were married in a civil ceremony about ten years ago. I expressed interest in the past few years in resuming life as a Catholic. Knowing that a non-sacramental marriage was an impediment, I went to talk to our deacon. He really wants us to have a convalidation ceremony. My husband flat-out refuses. He has no interest in being Catholic and doesn’t want anything to do with a convalidation on moral principle. He’s insulted that anyone would question our marriage’s legitimacy. I believe we may have grounds for a radical sanation, because I believe we fulfill the criteria, but when I tentatively raised the issue to the deacon, he basically said to just get my husband to do the convalidation no matter what. So I’m kind of stuck at the moment… Should I seek a second opinion?

To further complicate things, my husband was always under the assumption that he was baptized in the Catholic church as an infant. He attended a Catholic school briefly and received First Communion and thereafter received it quite a few times before he stopped attending church as a teenager. However, when I went looking, I was unable to track down a baptism certificate for him (I don’t know how they didn’t confirm it first before allowing him to do F.C.) - the school said it was missing from his file. I had him ask his mother about it, and she said something vague about him being baptized in a “Christian ceremony” - but she doesn’t remember what church it was, if it exists anymore, no other family members remember it… It sounds shady at best. So apparently he was never baptized? But he took Communion thinking he was… There are records and photos of him at his First Communion. It sounds very complicated.

Could someone please help sort out for me how I might proceed sorting this mess out…
 
snowblossom said:
He’s insulted that anyone would question our marriage’s legitimacy. I believe we may have grounds for a radical sanation, because I believe we fulfill the criteria, but when I tentatively raised the issue to the deacon, he basically said to just get my husband to do the convalidation no matter what. So I’m kind of stuck at the moment… Should I seek a second opinion?
Click to expand...
Make an appointment with your PASTOR to discuss radical sanation. Yes, you may be a candidate, and yes you have a right to explore that. Your deacon may be unfamiliar with sanation. If you do not receive help at the parish level, then call the judicial vicar of the diocese and make an appointment to talk to him.
snowblossom said:
Could someone please help sort out for me how I might proceed sorting this mess out…
Click to expand...
First pastor and then judicial vicar, and if you aren’t getting the help you need, contact these folks:
stjosephcanonlaw.com/

Deacons are great, but this is a case for your pastor to assist you with (unless the deacon is a canon lawyer, in which case I don’t know why he’d be steering you away from sanation as it does appear to be an option for you… but I don’t have all the facts).

Yes, your situation sounds a little complex, particularly with the maybe-I-was and maybe-I-wasn’t baptismal state of your husband. But, he can always be treated as unbaptized for paperwork (disparity of cult dispensation) for the sanation. If he is in fact baptized but cannot prove it, nothing is harmed by having done the disparity of cult paperwork.

*** also assuming there are no prior marriages lurking out there for either of you.***
 
I can tell how conflicted you are, and I’m sorry you’re facing this. However, I would advise that you try and see from your husband’s perspective.

From his point of view, you’ve been married just fine for ten years. He doesn’t see anything wrong with this. Obviously, according to your faith and his childhood faith, your marriage needs to be convalidated. That being said, I suggest you be as charitable and gentle with him as you can. Talk to your Priest on how best to discuss it with him, and try to make him see how much it would mean to you. Have you talked to him about Catholicism other than getting your marriage convalidated?

Lou

Edit - I’ve just read this over and I don’t sound very charitable myself, more patronising 😊 I don’t mean to sound as though I know more about your husband than you, or that you don’t know how he feels. I can see how difficult this must be for you, and I hope you can resume your faith, with your marriage recognised.
 
I answered on the liturgy forum. Yes, sanation should be possible (granted, the priest has to do investigation first).
 
Thank you! I’m not sure why they keep steering us towards him. Whenever I try to talk to someone else in the parish, I’m always defaulted to the deacon. :confused:

Is the process different if a marriage is to a non-baptized person or baptized person? I mean, it’s clearly different heading into a new one, but for these retroactive validations…

And no, we have no prior marriages.
 
snowblossom said:
Thank you! I’m not sure why they keep steering us towards him. Whenever I try to talk to someone else in the parish, I’m always defaulted to the deacon. :confused:

Is the process different if a marriage is to a non-baptized person or baptized person? I mean, it’s clearly different heading into a new one, but for these retroactive validations…

And no, we have no prior marriages.
Click to expand...
It’s not different, just additional paperwork for marrying a non-baptized or non-Catholic. This can all be handled in the sanation process.

No prior marriages = excellent

I suggest you insist on a meeting appointment with the pastor and secretaries do NOT get to know what it is about or defer you to anyone else. Stalk him after mass if you must, although calling to make an appointment is ideally best. Just tell the appointment-setter you need 30 minutes with Father and the matter is private.
 
snowblossom said:
I was told this topic might be a better fit for this forum…

**

My husband and I were married in a civil ceremony about ten years ago. I expressed interest in the past few years in resuming life as a Catholic. Knowing that a non-sacramental marriage was an impediment, I went to talk to our deacon. He really wants us to have a convalidation ceremony. My husband flat-out refuses. He has no interest in being Catholic and doesn’t want anything to do with a convalidation on moral principle. He’s insulted that anyone would question our marriage’s legitimacy.
Click to expand...
No one is questioning your civil marriage’s “legitimacy” - you are civilly married. However, the Catholic church does not recognize the marriage because one or more of the parties to the marriage is a baptized Catholic, and so required to be married according to the law of the Church and that didn’t happen. It also has nothing to do with your husband’s lack of interest in becoming Catholic. This is one of those situations where your husband’s “moral principle” is completely opposite of the Church’s moral teaching.
snowblossom said:
I believe we may have grounds for a radical sanation, because I believe we fulfill the criteria, but when I tentatively raised the issue to the deacon, he basically said to just get my husband to do the convalidation no matter what. So I’m kind of stuck at the moment… Should I seek a second opinion?
Click to expand...
You may have grounds for radical sanation. It really depends on your bishop’s opinion on the matter. I suspect the deacon is steering you toward a simple convalidation because the preparation and paperwork is at least the same and possible greater for sanation plus it has to get on the bishop’s schedule (or his appointed delegate).
snowblossom said:
To further complicate things, my husband was always under the assumption that he was baptized in the Catholic church as an infant. He attended a Catholic school briefly and received First Communion and thereafter received it quite a few times before he stopped attending church as a teenager. However, when I went looking, I was unable to track down a baptism certificate for him (I don’t know how they didn’t confirm it first before allowing him to do F.C.) - the school said it was missing from his file. I had him ask his mother about it, and she said something vague about him being baptized in a “Christian ceremony” - but she doesn’t remember what church it was, if it exists anymore, no other family members remember it… It sounds shady at best. So apparently he was never baptized? But he took Communion thinking he was… There are records and photos of him at his First Communion. It sounds very complicated.

Could someone please help sort out for me how I might proceed sorting this mess out…
Click to expand...
Your husband may have been baptised in a Christian community that has valid baptism recognized by the Catholic Church. He would then have been eligible for Catholic religious education as a child and First Communion with the expectation he would eventually be confirmed and make a profession of faith at that time.

You probably should follow up with your pastor. Depending on the size of your parish it might take a while to be able to get an appointment, but as a parishioner you have the right to meet with him.

Good luck, & Peace,

Deacon Patrick
 
If your pastor does not seem helpful or particularly knowledgeable about a radical sanction, ask to be directed to a priest with the marriage tribune.

I spoke to the priest with whom I had a good relationship and he had never heard of it. Then the pastor knew little if anything about it so finally I was directed to the tribune. It took over a year but finally, I got a certificate of matrimony, written in latin, on Vatican letterhead, “healing” my marriage at the root.

It is well worth the paperwork and the time spent.
 
snowblossom said:
My husband and I were married in a civil ceremony about ten years ago. I expressed interest in the past few years in resuming life as a Catholic. Knowing that a non-sacramental marriage was an impediment, I went to talk to our deacon. He really wants us to have a convalidation ceremony. My husband flat-out refuses. He has no interest in being Catholic and doesn’t want anything to do with a convalidation on moral principle. He’s insulted that anyone would question our marriage’s legitimacy. I believe we may have grounds for a radical sanation, because I believe we fulfill the criteria, but when I tentatively raised the issue to the deacon, he basically said to just get my husband to do the convalidation no matter what. So I’m kind of stuck at the moment… Should I seek a second opinion?

To further complicate things, my husband was always under the assumption that he was baptized in the Catholic church as an infant. He attended a Catholic school briefly and received First Communion and thereafter received it quite a few times before he stopped attending church as a teenager. However, when I went looking, I was unable to track down a baptism certificate for him (I don’t know how they didn’t confirm it first before allowing him to do F.C.) - the school said it was missing from his file. I had him ask his mother about it, and she said something vague about him being baptized in a “Christian ceremony” - but she doesn’t remember what church it was, if it exists anymore, no other family members remember it… It sounds shady at best. So apparently he was never baptized? But he took Communion thinking he was… There are records and photos of him at his First Communion. It sounds very complicated. :confused:

Could someone please help sort out for me how I might proceed sorting this mess out… :confused:
Click to expand...
As a priest, there are several reasons that come to mind as to why a cleric may not choose the path of a sanatio in radice. But, of course, I do not know you, your husband, or the details to arrive at any sort of informed determination. Nor can anyone else via the Internet. It is a decision, ultimately, that rests with the discretion of His Excellency, your bishop, or the Holy See.

I am concerned that the deacon could be advising you simply based on what is easiest from his perspective and the perspective of procedure…which is a renewal of consent that he can canonically witness. On the other hand, he is actually aware of the case and the circumstances and I am not. He may have plausibly determined that the resolution of this matter is only possible with a witnessed renewal of consent of both parties.

Perhaps the matter is always referred to the deacon in your parish because the pastor has delegated him to handle all marriage and marriage preparation issues…such was the case in one of my parishes.

By all means, you should seek to take this matter to someone else beyond the response that you have received…and especially to one who is fully informed and who responds based on deliberation and a careful weighing of the entirety of the matter in the light of the law and in the light of your circumstances.

If your pastor cannot or will not meet with you, you may request an appointment with the diocese’s judicial vicar to discuss the case and what options are feasible.
 
Regardless of whether or not you “qualify” for a radical sanation, your husband doesn’t want anything to do with this and both parties need to agree. You aren’t going to change his mind. So now, you need to decide f this is something you can live with…him not wanting the marriage validated by the Church.
 
JillyAnn said:
Regardless of whether or not you “qualify” for a radical sanation, your husband doesn’t want anything to do with this and both parties need to agree. You aren’t going to change his mind. So now, you need to decide f this is something you can live with…him not wanting the marriage validated by the Church.
Click to expand...
No, the husband doesn’t need to agree to a radical sanation. In fact, in some circumstances, a radical sanation can be done without either party even knowing.
 
JillyAnn said:
Regardless of whether or not you “qualify” for a radical sanation, your husband doesn’t want anything to do with this and both parties need to agree. You aren’t going to change his mind. So now, you need to decide f this is something you can live with…him not wanting the marriage validated by the Church.
Click to expand...
Could you please explain your statement? I don’t think the text of Canon 1161 could actually more clearly state the opposite.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top