marriage question

[CB_Catholic]

I would look at it as a very great achievement is for non-practicing Catholics to come back to the Church. Getting them to get married in the church is one of them.

They could refuse and there is nothing we can do. But if they do, like in most parishes, they have to go through a pre-marriage course. Great things often happen in all these procedures, where they would feel the love of God as it is explained to them, and it is during these kind of process that cause the turnaround for some people.

The first hurdle is to get them to go through the process, and the rest we trust the mercy and grace of God to work on them.

Reuben, I have experienced in my family that what you have said is true. A close family member was living with her fiancé and not really practicing her religion. Her fiance was a non-Catholic, but baptized. They went to an engaged encounter weekend and the young lady repented of her living situation, moved out of his house and back home and came back to the Church. They were married and a year later her husband became Catholic, and now many years later they have children whom are being raised in the faith, and she actually works for her parish, and her husband is active also. God’s grace reached them on that pre-marriage course.

 

[Reuben_J]

Reuben, I have experienced in my family that what you have said is true. A close family member was living with her fiancé and not really practicing her religion. Her fiance was a non-Catholic, but baptized. They went to an engaged encounter weekend and the young lady repented of her living situation, moved out of his house and back home and came back to the Church. They were married and a year later her husband became Catholic, and now many years later they have children whom are being raised in the faith, and she actually works for her parish, and her husband is active also. God’s grace reached them on that pre-marriage course.

Praise God. Thank you for sharing, my friend.

 

[1ke]

I see what you all are saying… I’m not sure what to think in this case because if they get married outside the Church it wouldn’t even be valid… But I see the problems with giving a Sacrament to someone not in a state of grace. Its very confusing… Maybe I’ll ask a priest… This isn’t about me personally but someone else.

Monica, encourage them to talk to their pastor. This will, in the end, be a pastoral decision on his part.

 

[oliver927]

I have nothing to add. I’m simply posting to subscribe because I know a couple in almost the exact situation and am interested to see the responses.

 

[His_helpmeet]

Copied from our archdiocesan manual:

No couple is to be refused marriage because of a lack of faith. There may
be circumstances, however, when the priest together with the couple
decide that it is best to defer the Sacrament of Marriage until that time
when marriage in the Church is more consistent with the couple’s faith.

In the case of couples whose faith and/or practice is weak or nonexistent,
it is necessary to enter into a dialogue with them about their request to
marry in the Church. With the pastor the couple needs to discern the
wisdom of a Church wedding at this time. The dialogue which is initiated
on this topic provides the opportunity to bring about a rediscovery of faith,
to nourish and lead it to maturity. The pastor should invite the couple to
actively participate in the life of the parish community.

The couple must never believe that the door of the Church has been closed
on them permanently. If possible, contact should be maintained with the
couple and the community’s concern for their well-being communicated to
them.

 

[Monica4316]

While I do think you understand the essence of Confession, I think that maybe the other priests who did absolve you might have been applying the “law of gradualness”. It is the idea that we can’t make a complete change overnight but that change takes place in small steps. Steps that lead to Holiness. My pastor used again in the Joy of Love document talk at out church.

I don’t think this reasoning causes someone to be in a state of grace though. It may only mean that the person is on the way to eventually coming into a state of grace. That’s not enough for absolution because a valid absolution must include resolution to sin no more.

Making small steps means just that - small steps. Repentance is a total change from sin and if a person is holding on to a mortal sin, absolution is invalid… That’s my understanding of the matter.

 

[Monica4316]

Yes, it means more than simple not practicing. St. Pope John Paul II provides the key in Familaris Consortio:

1. … However, when in spite of all efforts, engaged couples show that they reject explicitly and formally what the Church intends to do when the marriage of baptized persons is celebrated, the pastor of souls cannot admit them to the celebration of marriage. In spite of his reluctance to do so, he has the duty to take note of the situation and to make it clear to those concerned that, in these circumstances, it is not the Church that is placing an obstacle in the way of the celebration that they are asking for, but themselves.

What would be an example of this?

What if the couple is not practising but not atheist, they do not intend to divorce, but have lived together before and intend to keep using contraception?

 

[1ke]

What would be an example of this?

What if the couple is not practising but not atheist, they do not intend to divorce, but have lived together before and intend to keep using contraception?

Monica, this is for the pastor to determine through conversation. Direct them to their pastor. No need to tell them anything else.

Also-Confession is encouraged, but not required, for the sacrament of marriage.

 

[Graceful_Lamb]

I see what you all are saying… I’m not sure what to think in this case because if they get married outside the Church it wouldn’t even be valid… But I see the problems with giving a Sacrament to someone not in a state of grace. Its very confusing… Maybe I’ll ask a priest… This isn’t about me personally but someone else.

Usually, a Catholic needs to go to Confession before the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony in the Church. Therefore, they would both be in a state of grace (hopefully) when the marriage takes place in the Church.

 

[Monica4316]

Usually, a Catholic needs to go to Confession before the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony in the Church. Therefore, they would both be in a state of grace (hopefully) when the marriage takes place in the Church.

That is only if the couple intends to go to Sunday Mass, reject contraception, etc… That would need a conversion first…

 

[Monica4316]

Monica, this is for the pastor to determine through conversation. Direct them to their pastor. No need to tell them anything else.

Also-Confession is encouraged, but not required, for the sacrament of marriage.

I’m not asking in order to tell them the information, just to know for myself. Of course they would need to speak to their pastor eventually…

If a couple didn’t go to Confession, would they just have a liturgy of the Word? I mean I’m trying to just find out what is the standard practice.

 

[Reuben_J]

I don’t think this reasoning causes someone to be in a state of grace though. It may only mean that the person is on the way to eventually coming into a state of grace. That’s not enough for absolution because a valid absolution must include resolution to sin no more.

Making small steps means just that - small steps. Repentance is a total change from sin and if a person is holding on to a mortal sin, absolution is invalid… That’s my understanding of the matter.

In the brief encounter at the Confessional, an absolution is given if one is contrite and give disclosure (confess) the sin.

Making firm amendment is an act of contrition and it has some varied versions. In the British Commonwealth countries ‘… by your grace I will try not to sin again’ ( in some. I promise) is still being used.

Remember that the sacrament of Confession consist of basically three components - contrition (remorse), confession of sins and satisfaction which include penance and if needs be, restitution.

While we try not to commit the sin again, in practice Confession is about contrition and disclosure of the sin which is enough for absolution. I have not encountered where the priest gave me conditional absolution like he only absolved if I don’t commit the sin again.

That can be problematic especially for habitual sin. We can stop sinning for a while but may commit the sin again which needs to be confessed again.

Some couples who use birth control do stop using it but may revert after some point in time, sin which needs to be confessed again.

 

[Graceful_Lamb]

That is only if the couple intends to go to Sunday Mass, reject contraception, etc… That would need a conversion first…

I agree.

 

[Monica4316]

In the brief encounter at the Confessional, an absolution is given if one is contrite and give disclosure (confess) the sin.

Making firm amendment is an act of contrition and it has some varied versions. In the British Commonwealth countries ‘… by your grace I will try not to sin again’ ( in some. I promise) is still being used.

Remember that the sacrament of Confession consist of basically three components - contrition (remorse), confession of sins and satisfaction which include penance and if needs be, restitution.

While we try not to commit the sin again, in practice Confession is about contrition and disclosure of the sin which is enough for absolution. I have not encountered where the priest gave me conditional absolution like he only absolved if I don’t commit the sin again.

That can be problematic especially for habitual sin. We can stop sinning for a while but may commit the sin again which needs to be confessed again.

Some couples who use birth control do stop using it but may revert after some point in time, sin which needs to be confessed again.

Well what I’m worried about is a couple who - for example - has no intent at all to stop birth control. If there is no plan to stop or contrition. The only reason a Church wedding is being planned is because family wants one… So.I’m just not sure what the Church does in those cases.

 

[Reuben_J]

Well what I’m worried about is a couple who - for example - has no intent at all to stop birth control. If there is no plan to stop or contrition. The only reason a Church wedding is being planned is because family wants one… So.I’m just not sure what the Church does in those cases.

Fair enough. It is a good thing you bring this up though.

From the Church point of view, we should not give up and whatever it is, they are still Catholics.

If they should agree to get married in the church, they would go into pre-nuptial scrutiny. The priest will interview them, who from that will assess them as he thinks necessary as to what step need to be taken before an approval of marriage take place.

My guess is that they will have to follow the necessary procedure for couples wanting to get married in the Catholic Church.

Of course, even though the family wants a church wedding, the priest would ensure that it is still done rightly.

At this stage they may have no intention to stop birth control or being contrite, but the Church has a way to deal with this kind of things. More importantly is for them to present themselves to the Church.

For example, the Church has an approved method of family planning in NFP which is not against Church doctrine on the sanctity of life. That can be as good as the artificial birth control to plan the family.

 

[Vico]

What would be an example of this?

What if the couple is not practising but not atheist, they do not intend to divorce, but have lived together before and intend to keep using contraception?

The Church intends, for the baptized man and woman capable of assuming the essential obligations of matrimony, without impediments, to freely and without deception, establish lifelong exclusive union for the purpose of creating and raising children in the Catholic faith. The couple does not have to be fertile, but the will must not be against fruitfulness: every marriage must remain open to new life.

 

[Ubenedictus]

On the other hand, a priest might use the opportunity to evangelize them, get them to go to confession, and try to get them to reconsider their position.

It wouldn’t be the first time that “love of family” led to “return to the practice of the faith” …

True and true, a priest may help them reconsider their stance on practicing the catholic faith and that should solve the problem.

 

[Ubenedictus]

If a practicing Catholic marries someone who has “notoriously” rejected the Catholic faith the CCCB’s Complementary norms on the Code of Canon Law has this to say
Now, can two people who are simply non-practicing be said to have “notoriously rejected the Catholic faith”? They consider themselves Catholic enough to ask for marriage.

It happens a lot in my parish. Folks we’ve rarely, if ever, seen in church suddenly turn up to get married, or to have their child baptized, not usually in that order. While I’ve never been privy to what is said in the priest’s office, I’m confident that no priest has ever refused a couple the sacrament of marriage because that would have been proclaimed far and wide in our small town with the priest made to look like the bad guy. I do know that many such couples marry within a Liturgy of the Word rather than a Nuptial Mass.

As the op suggested people may decide to may a catholic marriage to please others even when they dont believe in its effects. Sacraments are recieved unworthily and sometimes with grave consequence when the parties involved do it believe. That will be treating a holy thing in a common way, that by definition profanes the holy thing.

 

[carefullytread]

As the op suggested people may decide to may a catholic marriage to please others even when they dont believe in its effects. Sacraments are recieved unworthily and sometimes with grave consequence when the parties involved do it believe. That will be treating a holy thing in a common way, that by definition profanes the holy thing.

Is this what the Church teaches? That’s a genuine question, not me being snarky! I know that you can commit sacrilege by receiving communion unworthily, but is it sacrilege to get married in the Church if you don’t believe?

As I understand it (please correct me if I’m wrong), it is possible to validly marry without being in a state of grace. The graces of marriage don’t occur until that a state of grace is entered, but the marriage can still be valid. There are psychological states that can make a marriage invalid, such as not wanting to have children, but I didn’t think that lack of belief was one of them. And even if it does make the marriage invalid, does it rise to the level of sacrilege?

 

[Ubenedictus]

I will not answer that question because it is pretty much hypothetical.

But let’s just just say this. The Sacrament of Reconciliation is efficacious for the absolution of past sins if it is done accordingly. The greatest gift of this Sacrament is the forgiveness of sins, and there are no sins that God does not forgive. Scripturally the exception is the sin against the Holy Spirit.

Thus, going for Confession for non-practicing Catholics is sufficient for them to be in a state of grace and to return/reconcile with God.

Other than that, the question you asked. That may be considered as bad insincere Confession, if it is done deliberately. I cannot imagine a situation that people do this.

What often happen is that a penitent falls into the same sin again after Confession, in fact some times, again and again, whereby there may be other root cause for it but the sins being confessed nevertheless are forgiven, assuming he/she follows the usual procedure of Confession.

As I mentioned, it is a great opportunity for non-practicing Catholics to come back to the Church by getting married in the church. The future is for them and they have a family and children to think about other than themselves. The grace of the Sacrament often does wonder that can amaze us.

This Sunday, the Gospel reading was about the Prodigal Son. Similarly, the Church/God would always give opportunity for us to come back to him. She has made it possible for astray Catholics to come back and the Sacraments are some of those facilitating graces.

God bless.

The usual procedure of confession includes a firm purpose of amendment without it no absolution is efficacious