Marriage Questions and mini-Crisis

[proudcatholic33]

Hello. I am in a troubling situation. and want to do the right thing to please God and not offend the Church.
To make a long story short, I am a life-long Catholic since birth, and strictly adhere to the faith. I’ve been dating this beautiful young woman for some time now. She is not Catholic, and has been a on-again-off-again Baptist for the better part of her life, but has recently heard God’s calling to join the Catholic faith and is looking into taking RCIA classes for an eventual conversion - awesome!

Recently we discussed the possibility of getting married and we are both on the same page about it. as we are madly in love with one another. However, there is one glaring problem.

Years ago, when she was 17, she (stupidly and regretfully) got married in a civil marriage, non-religious. The marriage was somewhat pushed onto her by her parents and peers, but this is no excuse for her poor and immature decision. After marraige, her husband soon showed his true self as he regularly abused alcohol and other recreational drugs. In addition to this, he would frequently hurt and abuse her. After a number of years, she finally had enough of the pain and suffering and got a divorce, which is all said and done in the courts. She filed a restraining order against him at one point as well, and has moved away to ensure he does not come after her.

Now, years later, I am in the picture and thinking about marrying her and she is preparing to take the classes to join the Church. She has told me numerous times that she felt her marriage was un-holy, especialyl in light of her recent calling to the Faith. I have prayed about it endlessly, and I want to be with this woman for the rest of my life, but I’m not so sure of what I need to do to try and make this happen.

So let me ask the folks here:
What exactly do we have to do to get married? Does the Church recognize her non-religious marriage? (Neither she nor her ex-husband were Catholic at the time, and I think he’s actually an atheist, if that plays into it). Does she need to file for an annulment even though it was a non-religious union? If so, generally speaking, does she have grounds for one? How would we go about doing that, since she is not Catholic (yet)? I’m wondering if her case is helped by the fact that she was too immature to make that fateful decision, coupled with the fact that he once married, he regularly abused her. ALSO, combine that with the fact that she has felt a calling to the faith, after a long period of consideration and prayer.

And lastly…am I or she comitting adultery by dating each other and since she was not married in the Catholic Church and has no annulment yet? (And I mean DATING, not having sexual relations.)

For the record, I have never been married before. This will be my first and only, if it comes to be.

Thanks for your help.

 

[1ke]

What exactly do we have to do to get married?

Regardless of whether or not she decided to become a Catholic, she must be declared free to marry before you can marry her. This involves an investigation of her first marriage and a petition for nullity.

She needs to sit down and have a discussion with the pastor of your parish and get a nullity petition started.

Does the Church recognize her non-religious marriage?

Yes.

Does she need to file for an annulment even though it was a non-religious union?

Yes. When two non-Catholics marry, they do so validly in a civil ceremony. Whether she pursues a decree of nullity or possibly a petition for a dissolution of the bond will depend upon the baptismal status of her ex and is something she should discuss with the priest.

If so, generally speaking, does she have grounds for one?

We cannot tell you that, as we do not know and cannot know the specific details. This is something she needs to talk to the priest about.

How would we go about doing that, since she is not Catholic (yet)?

She will make an appointment with the priest and discuss her situation. She does not have to be a Catholic to petition for a decree of nullity. You will not really be involved in the process.

I’m wondering if her case is helped by the fact that she was too immature to make that fateful decision, coupled with the fact that he once married, he regularly abused her. ALSO, combine that with the fact that she has felt a calling to the faith, after a long period of consideration and prayer.

Maybe. Again, it is not useful to speculate.

And lastly…am I or she comitting adultery by dating each other and since she was not married in the Catholic Church and has no annulment yet? (And I mean DATING, not having sexual relations.)

It isn’t prudent to date someone who is not free to marry. You are already “madly in love”. So, you must ask yourself what happens if the tribunal finds that her marriage is valid and she is not free to marry. The more emotionally attached you become and the more you’ve “planned” a future together the harder it will be to let her go if it becomes necessary to do so.

Be cautious and guard your heart and hers until you know you are both free to make a commitment. Talk to your priest for guidance.

I do recommend you get the book Annulment: The Wedding That Was by Michael Smith Foster and you and she read it in detail.

 

[TheMc]

Regardless of whether or not she decided to become a Catholic, she must be declared free to marry before you can marry her. This involves an investigation of her first marriage and a petition for nullity.

Even with just a civil marriage?

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Even with just a civil marriage?

Yes, as all marrige are considered vailid unless proven invalid.

 

[TheMc]

1ke, he mentioned she was partially pressured into it. While it still has to go through the tribunal, that can be grounds for nullity, right?

 

[1ke]

Even with just a civil marriage?

Yes.

When non-Catholics marry, they are marrying civilly whether they marry before a civil official or clergy. The clergy, if they choose a religious ceremony of some kind, are merely civil witnesses to the marriage, they are not confecting the sacrament.

 

[FromTheAshes777]

speculating here a little bit but…do you know when she was Baptized or if she was? was the man that she married ever baptized that you know of? These are things that the tribunal will look at. Best wishes.

 

[1ke]

1ke, he mentioned she was partially pressured into it. While it still has to go through the tribunal, that can be grounds for nullity, right?

It could. A lack of freedom can impede valid consent. It would be something to discuss with the priest. It requires more than the petitioner saying “I was pressured.” There would have to be reliable witness testimony to such pressure.

 

[proudcatholic33]

Thanks for your answers.

Regardless of whether or not she decided to become a Catholic, she must be declared free to marry before you can marry her. This involves an investigation of her first marriage and a petition for nullity.

Ok, i figured this.

Yes. When two non-Catholics marry, they do so validly in a civil ceremony. Whether she pursues a decree of nullity or possibly a petition for a dissolution of the bond will depend upon the baptismal status of her ex and is something she should discuss with the priest

.
How doe his baptismal status play into it? I do not believe he was baptized at the time or marriage.

She will make an appointment with the priest and discuss her situation. She does not have to be a Catholic to petition for a decree of nullity. You will not really be involved in the process.

Ok good information.

Maybe. Again, it is not useful to speculate

.

I realize this…I suppose I am anxious about the whole situation.

It isn’t prudent to date someone who is not free to marry. You are already “madly in love”. So, you must ask yourself what happens if the tribunal finds that her marriage is valid and she is not free to marry. The more emotionally attached you become and the more you’ve “planned” a future together the harder it will be to let her go if it becomes necessary to do so.

Be cautious and guard your heart and hers until you know you are both free to make a commitment. Talk to your priest for guidance.

Thank you for your advice. I appreciate it, and I am coming to grips with the fact that it may not work out.

I do recommend you get the book Annulment: The Wedding That Was by Michael Smith Foster and you and she read it in detail.

I will order it now from Amazon!

Even with just a civil marriage?

I was wondering the same thing!

 

[proudcatholic33]

It could. A lack of freedom can impede valid consent. It would be something to discuss with the priest. It requires more than the petitioner saying “I was pressured.” There would have to be reliable witness testimony to such pressure.

Her parents are willing to testify and admit they pushed her into it…

speculating here a little bit but…do you know when she was Baptized or if she was? was the man that she married ever baptized that you know of? These are things that the tribunal will look at. Best wishes.

She was baptized, yes, I do not believe he was. How would this affect the situation?

Sorry for double post, the responses are great!

 

[revert_jen]

Wow, there are a lot of questions in there! I’ll probably just pick a few. And I’m not a canon lawyer, so this is just a rough idea of the kinds of issues involved. What you want to do is to talk about this with your pastor, because he can give you better information than anyone on any forum.

First of all, welcome to the forum!

From 30,000 feet, there are two big questions about annulments and your girlfriend.

1. Does your girlfriend need an annulment?
2. If yes, is she likely to be able to get one?

The answer to question 1, as far as I can tell, is Yes.

If either she or her husband were Catholics, then the answer would be No, they could get a “declaration of lack of form” (which is a lot easier than “declaration of nullity” =annulment) from not being married according to the requirements of the Catholic faith.

But since they were not Catholic, a civil ceremony can result in a valid marriage.

The only other thing that could make the answer be No is if either your girlfriend or her husband had not been baptized prior to their marriage (because you cannot, AFAIK, have a sacramental marriage with a non-Christian), or of course if her husband had already been married and divorced before.

Question 2 is of course a bit trickier. Nobody but the marriage tribunal can say for sure what the answer to that is, and nobody but a canon lawyer can say even with a reasonable degree of confidence. It sounds like there are certainly some reasons to hope. Her age, the emotional pressure placed on her, and her husband’s drug use (especially if it was going on before the marriage and she didn’t know about it) are in her favor.

Bur even so, it can be a very long process. I had a friend whose annulment procedure went on for almost five years.

You don’t have to be Catholic to apply for an annulment, AFAIK, but you should ask your pastor or someone in the tribunal office for your diocese.

You can’t commit adultery without having sex. But you are, as 1ke says, being imprudent. You are setting yourselves up for possible adultery later. Because, the thing is, you could wait two or three years for her to get an annulment, and then she doesn’t get it. Here you are, you have been through all of this turmoil and all of this time together, only to find that you can never marry. There are two serious dangers here. The first is that you will just get married outside the Church and live in a state of mortal sin. The second is that the process (which is not the most spiritually uplifting part of the Church) will, after its ultimate failure, make you so mad that you just leave the Church altogether.

These may be risks that you are willing to take on for yourself, although you would be extremely unwise to do so. But if you love this woman, you cannot be willing to risk HER immortal soul for earthly happiness.

The only thing you can do if you really desire the best for her (which is what love means) is to stop dating her. You can be friends, as long as you never (out loud for sure, but even in your heads as far as you are able) make any plans for more until you find out whether those plans could doom both of your souls to Hell if carried out. I know that sounds melodramatic, but in fact, if you plan for the future with this woman, you are setting yourself up emotionally for the decision later where you say to God, “I don’t care what you want. I’m going to marry her.”

And no, you can’t still just date without getting engaged, because that is just storing up more potential hurt for her and for yourself.

I pray that this works out for you in the way that God wants!

–Jen

 

[1ke]

.
How doe his baptismal status play into it? I do not believe he was baptized at the time or marriage.

If one or both of them is unbaptized, in addition to petitioning for a *declaration of nullity *she may be able to petition for a dissolution of the bond under the Pauline or Petrine Privilege.

Her priest would guide her on this. Basically, if an unbaptized person is involved there are some additional avenues open.

 

[FromTheAshes777]

Her parents are willing to testify and admit they pushed her into it…

She was baptized, yes, I do not believe he was. How would this affect the situation?

Sorry for double post, the responses are great!

no problem

the situation with the parents may help things

as for the baptismal situation see 1ke’s post #12

 

[1ke]

The only other thing that could make the answer be No is if either your girlfriend or her husband had not been baptized prior to their marriage (because you cannot, AFAIK, have a sacramental marriage with a non-Christian), or of course if her husband had already been married and divorced before.

Validity and sacramentality are two different things. Marriages between unbaptized people or between a baptized/unbaptized couple are valid.

A person validly married to an unbaptized person would still need to be declared free to marry. They can petition for a decree of nullity if they think their marriage is invalid. If the marriage is valid, they still might have an option for a petition for a dissolution of a natural bond.

 

[proudcatholic33]

So since she IS baptized, and he is not, only the Pope could dissolve such a marriage, under Pertine Privilege, right? Pauline would not apply here?

 

[revert_jen]

A person validly married to an unbaptized person would still need to be declared free to marry. They can petition for a decree of nullity if they think their marriage is invalid. If the marriage is valid, they still might have an option for a petition for a dissolution of a natural bond.

Fair enough. Since it asked the question on my form for “defect of form” I thought it made a difference. But maybe that only related to the question of whether I had gotten proper dispensation to marry a non-Christian (which would apply to me, since I was Catholic, but not to the OP’s situation). I never went into that much, since the-man-with-whom-I-had-gone-through-a-form-of-marriage (known civilly as my ex-husband) was baptized, and anyway we were never married in the Church, which was the grounds for the petition.

Thanks for the info! It’s always nice to learn something new.

–Jen

 

[1ke]

So since she IS baptized, and he is not, only the Pope could dissolve such a marriage, under Pertine Privilege, right? Pauline would not apply here?

Correct.

The first avenue will likely be to petition for a decree of nullity. On the surface, she appears to have some valid grounds.

It’s really difficult to speculate though. Things can change as the process proceeds based on availability of witnesses, paperwork, etc.

The best advice I can give is that she make an appointment with the priest and take things one step at a time.

 

[proudcatholic33]

Ok. Thanks 1ke for all your information, and everyone else too. I sincerely appreciate it!

 

[proudcatholic33]

I suppose I don’t understand WHY the Church recognizes a non-religious marriage. Isn’t the entire point of marriage to make a union in a spiritual bond and pro-create?

 

[proudcatholic33]

Sorry for a THIRD post…but an update and I can’t seem to edit an older post. So it turns out she was never “officially” Baptized. There is no baptismal certificate. She was at a river one day when a random person dunked her in a river and said she was baptized, in typical southern fashion. So, would he Pauline Privelage apply since this was not a 'legitimate" baptism and there is no official record? I always thought I was such an expert Catholic until I stumbled on these boards