Marriage sacramental but not legal?

[Princess18]

Does anyone know if the Church will perform a sacramental wedding ceremony without the legal union component? As in, the couple says vows but no civil marriage certificate is signed or filed.

Thanks!

 

[Claire_from_DE]

I’ve heard some retired people would like this because if they marry legally it affects social security benefits but I don’t think priests will do it.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

I believe they go hand and hand in the US.

 

[Phemie]

It would be very unusual for the Church to perform a marriage that is not legal. In the countries where a civil marriage MUST be celebrated first, the Church will usually not perform the ceremony without a copy of the civil marriage certificate.

In countries where the Church wedding is also a legal wedding, the Church won’t marry someone without the proper licenses.

But, for good reason, the Church will perform a secret marriage, one that is not recorded in the usual registers and which remains secret until the couple decides otherwise. Defrauding the government of social security money doesn’t qualify as a good reason. One of the valid reasons given is when the laws of the country prevent the legal marriage but those laws are contrary to God’s law (the example given was the marriage of an interracial couple when the State forbids such a marriage).

 

[bpbasilphx]

Defrauding the government of social security money doesn’t qualify as a good reason.

And yet, if they are married legally and honorably, THEY are being defrauded of SS benfits by the governmnet. Hardly just.

 

[Phemie]

Defrauding the government of social security money doesn’t qualify as a good reason.

And yet, if they are married legally and honorably, THEY are being defrauded of SS benefits by the government. Hardly just.

While we may not like it, I don’t think the government is perpetrating a fraud on the couple.

Sorry, this is off-topic, but I live in Canada. I don’t like the idea that my husband’s military pension will be clawed back when he qualifies for Canada Pension, a plan that, by the time he starts to collect, he will have paid into for 45 years. But, when the system was put in place that’s how things were set up and members of the military weren’t given the option to do it another way. While he may feel ‘defrauded’, he certainly isn’t.

 

[THurifer2]

Does anyone know if the Church will perform a sacramental wedding ceremony without the legal union component? As in, the couple says vows but no civil marriage certificate is signed or filed.

Thanks!

It is a very stupid thing to do…Health Insurance, LIfe insurance, automobile insurance, retirement funds, property rights, DIsability issues, Social Security issues, spousal indemnity issues. can come into play.

 

[Seatuck]

It is a very stupid thing to do…Health Insurance, LIfe insurance, automobile insurance, retirement funds, property rights, DIsability issues, Social Security issues, spousal indemnity issues. can come into play.

Those are man’s things of this life. There are spiritual reasons to have such a marriage that transcend the value of those man made things. They are rare to be sure.

 

[Spirithound]

Does anyone know if the Church will perform a sacramental wedding ceremony without the legal union component? As in, the couple says vows but no civil marriage certificate is signed or filed.

Thanks!

A PP mentioned Europe, where the civil and religious components are separate (though this is probably the government’s choice, not giving priests the authority to officiate at weddings.). I can see it coming to this in Canada now where SS"M" is now legal.
But since you’re asking about whether the Church “will” do it, meaning if they have a choice, I think another PP has given a better answer.

 

[Cristiano]

Does anyone know if the Church will perform a sacramental wedding ceremony without the legal union component? As in, the couple says vows but no civil marriage certificate is signed or filed.

Thanks!

It would be very unusual for the Church to perform a marriage that is not legal. In the countries where a civil marriage MUST be celebrated first, the Church will usually not perform the ceremony without a copy of the civil marriage certificate.

In countries where the Church wedding is also a legal wedding, the Church won’t marry someone without the proper licenses.

But, for good reason, the Church will perform a secret marriage, one that is not recorded in the usual registers and which remains secret until the couple decides otherwise. Defrauding the government of social security money doesn’t qualify as a good reason. One of the valid reasons given is when the laws of the country prevent the legal marriage but those laws are contrary to God’s law (the example given was the marriage of an interracial couple when the State forbids such a marriage).

That is possible here in the States too; however, the celebrant needs to seek explicit permission by the Bishop otherwise he is not allowed to do so. One caveat is that the officiant might loose his privilege to celebrate marriages recognized and accepted by the civil government.

While the Church respects and accepts just civil law and Her members are bound to it, She is not constrained by it when it comes to the administration of the sacraments including marriage. It is a just choice of the Church and not something imposed on her.

 

[Princess18]

It is a very stupid thing to do…Health Insurance, LIfe insurance, automobile insurance, retirement funds, property rights, DIsability issues, Social Security issues, spousal indemnity issues. can come into play.

Stupid is relative. In this case there is a legal financial issue not yet resolved (which originated long before he even came along) and marriage would put the husband’s assets in danger. Putting his house, savings, and retirement at risk for health insurance is not a wise choice. Nor would it be forever, a year or two perhaps.

 

[Phemie]

A PP mentioned Europe, where the civil and religious components are separate (though this is probably the government’s choice, not giving priests the authority to officiate at weddings.). I can see it coming to this in Canada now where SS"M" is now legal.
But since you’re asking about whether the Church “will” do it, meaning if they have a choice, I think another PP has given a better answer.

The bishops have already threatened it. I would be applauding if they decided to go that route. If nothing else it would likely keep those who couldn’t care less about a church wedding from using the Church for less than stellar reasons.

 

[Seatuck]

Stupid is relative. In this case there is a legal financial issue not yet resolved (which originated long before he even came along) and marriage would put the husband’s assets in danger. Putting his house, savings, and retirement at risk for health insurance is not a wise choice. Nor would it be forever, a year or two perhaps.

I’d say in this case postponement of the marriage is in order. Marriage is for better or for worse. Spouses should be prepared to make sacrifices. In this case there is obviously a limit on how much to sacrifice.

In any event I bet there is something legal that could be done to protect his assets.

 

[brigid12]

I know of elderly couples who live together instead, if they got married they would need to live on the street. This is Just?

 

[otjm]

Defrauding the government of social security money doesn’t qualify as a good reason.

And yet, if they are married legally and honorably, THEY are being defrauded of SS benfits by the governmnet. Hardly just.

They are not defrauded by the governement; that would indicate that a governement benefit was above government law - in other words, an oxymoron.

You may not understand why the laws concerning Social Security are the way they are, but they are not something that is completely arbitrary. To say that a couple who marries, and has an adjustment to their Social Security is defrauded by the government is a statement without intelligible content.

 

[otjm]

I know of elderly couples who live together instead, if they got married they would need to live on the street. This is Just?

why do you presume that Social Security laws are based on your concept of justice?

 

[brigid12]

why do you presume that Social Security laws are based on your concept of justice?

touché

 

[Spirithound]

The bishops have already threatened it. I would be applauding if they decided to go that route. If nothing else it would likely keep those who couldn’t care less about a church wedding from using the Church for less than stellar reasons.

Wow, I hadn’t heard that. I figured they would wait until the Supreme Court finally said that ALL marriage officials had to be willing to do SS"M"'s. But I agree with your analysis

 

[brigid12]

Wow, I hadn’t heard that. I figured they would wait until the Supreme Court finally said that ALL marriage officials had to be willing to do SS"M"'s. But I agree with your analysis

I would think that that will be the final straw for our Holy Father and will mean that the laws are not of Christ.

 

[Brendan]

My wife and I had one.

She’s Canadian and I am American. We got married in her parish in Ontario.

But by the time the wedding rolled around, the INS paperwork to bring a wife into the US hadn’t arrived. If we were legally married, that would change her standing from just being a normal Canadian who can cross the boarder at anytime, to a spouse of a US citizen who needed a specific type of Visa.

So the priest witnessed our Sacramental union, but we did not sign or file the marriage license (then).

The INS paperwork arrived while we were off on our honeymoon and , we did a JoP with two friends and filed the paperwork.