Marriage: Submission & Headship

[LookingHigher]

I am a Catholic convert. My wife and I converted to Catholicism from an Evangelical Non-Denominational church. I was lead to understand/believe certain things about scripture from that church (and it’s members) that my wife believes do not conform with Catholic teaching on these scriptures.

My wife and I are now currently separated. She’s asserting that I am controlling and verbally/emotionally abusive to her. I am now seeking secular counseling at her request to help identify any issues I may have in that area. I spoke with my Priest also who advised we obviously needed professional counseling.

However, I’m hoping for some help/clarity on what the Catholic Church REALLY believes and teaches on the roles of Husband and Wife in Marriage. I truly believe that when properly married that God creates a permanent bond that legal divorce does not separate.

Here’s where my questions begin:

**1 Corinthians 11 **
But I want you to know that Christ is the head of every man, and a husband the head of his wife, and God the head of Christ. Any man who prays or prophesies with his head covered brings shame upon his head. But any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled brings shame upon her head, for it is one and the same thing as if she had had her head shaved. For if a woman does not have her head veiled, she may as well have her hair cut off. But if it is shameful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should wear a veil. (Excerpt from USCCB.org Bible)

Prior to joining the Catholic Church my wife became convicted that she was to wear a veil or other head covering to Mass. She has since discontinued this practice entirely. What’s interesting to me is that traditionally women always practiced this up until recent history. Scripture appears to say this is an outward sign of man’s headship and oddly claims the angels themselves as a reason women must wear the covering.

Ephesians 5:21-25
Be subordinate to one another out of reverence for Christ.
Wives should be subordinate to their husbands as to the Lord.
For the husband is head of his wife just as Christ is head of the church, he himself the savior of the body.
As the church is subordinate to Christ, so wives should be subordinate to their husbands in everything.
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ loved the church and handed himself over for her (Excerpt from USCCB.org Bible)

Christians must all submit to one another through Love. But it’s unique to me that husbands and wives are ultimately called out separately here. Now I’m not hoping to have someone tell me I can bark orders all day as a husband. But I want to understand what my role is supposed to be. In what way are wives supposed to “subordinate” themselves? It just seems to me that all this scripture would be wasted if there wasn’t an actual point to be made. All scripture is good; all scripture serves to teach us how to live our lives.

So what is the headship of man/husband?

What is the subordination of a woman/wife?

 

[TrueLight]

I am a Catholic convert. My wife and I converted to Catholicism from an Evangelical Non-Denominational church. I was lead to understand/believe certain things about scripture from that church (and it’s members) that my wife believes do not conform with Catholic teaching on these scriptures.

My wife and I are now currently separated. She’s asserting that I am controlling and verbally/emotionally abusive to her. I am now seeking secular counseling at her request to help identify any issues I may have in that area. I spoke with my Priest also who advised we obviously needed professional counseling.

However, I’m hoping for some help/clarity on what the Catholic Church REALLY believes and teaches on the roles of Husband and Wife in Marriage. I truly believe that when properly married that God creates a permanent bond that legal divorce does not separate.

Here’s where my questions begin:

**1 Corinthians 11 **
But I want you to know that Christ is the head of every man, and a husband the head of his wife, and God the head of Christ. Any man who prays or prophesies with his head covered brings shame upon his head. But any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled brings shame upon her head, for it is one and the same thing as if she had had her head shaved. For if a woman does not have her head veiled, she may as well have her hair cut off. But if it is shameful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should wear a veil. (Excerpt from USCCB.org Bible)

Prior to joining the Catholic Church my wife became convicted that she was to wear a veil or other head covering to Mass. She has since discontinued this practice entirely. What’s interesting to me is that traditionally women always practiced this up until recent history. Scripture appears to say this is an outward sign of man’s headship and oddly claims the angels themselves as a reason women must wear the covering.

Ephesians 5:21-25
Be subordinate to one another out of reverence for Christ.
Wives should be subordinate to their husbands as to the Lord.
For the husband is head of his wife just as Christ is head of the church, he himself the savior of the body.
As the church is subordinate to Christ, so wives should be subordinate to their husbands in everything.
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ loved the church and handed himself over for her (Excerpt from USCCB.org Bible)

Christians must all submit to one another through Love. But it’s unique to me that husbands and wives are ultimately called out separately here. Now I’m not hoping to have someone tell me I can bark orders all day as a husband. But I want to understand what my role is supposed to be. In what way are wives supposed to “subordinate” themselves? It just seems to me that all this scripture would be wasted if there wasn’t an actual point to be made. All scripture is good; all scripture serves to teach us how to live our lives.

So what is the headship of man/husband?

What is the subordination of a woman/wife?

I am a convert too. From what I’ve seen and heard, it appears to me that Catholics except, for maybe the ultra-trads, do not have the same viewpoint regarding the husband being the head of the home as some Evangelicals. Maybe someone will correct me.

 

[joanofarc2008]

Here’s the deal. A husband and a wife should be both be working to do the will of each other. Not just one for the other. Ephesians 5:24-26 is a metaphor for Christ and the Church and marriage not permission for a husband to “boss” his wife around with out giving. Yes this means that she should love and submit to him as the Church loves and submits to Christ but he also must love her as Christ loves the Church and show her that love. That is why the Church is the bride of Christ.

That being said - your wife if your behavior puts her physically or her soul in danger can seek to remedy this through separation or divorce with permission. She cannot remarry without decree of nullity. I would recommend taking a look at this statement by the USCCB which covers both emotional and physical abuse. I am not accusing you of physical it is just that the statement covers both so I am offering it to you because you have asked for the information.

When I Call For Help

I would strongly recommend marriage counseling. God bless you and I wish you luck as I do feel that you are looking to better your marriage and yourself.

 

[LookingHigher]

I would strongly recommend marriage counseling. God bless you and I wish you luck as I do feel that you are looking to better your marriage and yourself.

I’ve been asking her to do joint marital counseling for a long time. Where we stand now however, is that she’s forced me out of the home and insists I get “abuse counseling” and will not entertain marital counseling until my perceived issues are resolved. I won’t get into the details because our history is long and double sided.

Of course there can be no healing until we actually get into real marital counseling. I’m really hoping we can somehow attend a Retrouvaille event in our state in March. However, having 3 children under 5 (one of which is 5 months) may very well prevent us from being able to do so. Which is very disheartening to say the least.

 

[Luna_Lovecraft]

To copy the repy from CAF apologist Michelle Arnold, who addressed this topic last week:

*…If there is some idea that a husband commands and a wife salutes and says “Yes, sir,” then that is not the definition of marital submission the Church teaches. A wife is not the inferior, “subject,” employee, servant, or minor dependent of her husband. She is his partner or, to put it traditionally, his “help mate,” who forms him in sanctity and assists him along the road to heaven. A husband is to love his wife “as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her” (Eph. 5:25). And how did Christ demonstrate his love and self-sacrifice for the Church? By washing her feet and dying on the cross (cf. John 13:3-5, 19:32-34).

With this as background, it should be clear that this is the sacramental relationship between a husband and wife, and made possible by the sacrament of matrimony. The relationship appropriate between a husband and wife is not intended to be a template for all male/female relationships; even less so are women to be considered “subjects” of men merely because they are female.*

I hope I’ve not violated CAF rules posting thusly. I’m on a handheld and can’t manage links.

Luna

 

[joanofarc2008]

I’ve been asking her to do joint marital counseling for a long time. Where we stand now however, is that she’s forced me out of the home and insists I get “abuse counseling” and will not entertain marital counseling until my perceived issues are resolved. I won’t get into the details because our history is long and double sided.

Of course there can be no healing until we actually get into real marital counseling. I’m really hoping we can somehow attend a Retrouvaille event in our state in March. However, having 3 children under 5 (one of which is 5 months) may very well prevent us from being able to do so. Which is very disheartening to say the least.

At this point I think after reading the Bishops statement the best thing you can do is look at humility and go to counseling. If you cannot see the behavior let her know that you will need her (name removed by moderator)ut with the counselor. If she is not willing to engage in maritial counseling there is nothing your can do to make her. I think part of true humility is sitting back and instead of saying perceived problem saying that there may be a problem and being willing to listen and find out if there is.

 

[w_s_s]

From Moral Theology, by Fr. Heribert Jone:

201. – III. Mutual Obligations of Husband and Wife.

1. Duties in Common. Husband and wife must love and help each other; they must grant the marriage right, observe marital fidelity and common life.

It is a grave sin for one of them to be absent for a long time against the will of the other, unless an important reason excuses. For more particulars confer 747. On the suspension of common life confer 764.

1. The duties of the husband are principally these: the government of the household and family, providing of food, clothing and shelter.

The husband sins by not making it possible for his wife to live according to her social standing, or by imposing work upon her that is not done by women of her state or condition.

1. The duties of the wife arise principally from her position as man’s helpmate; she must manage the household affairs with proper subordination to her husband.

She sins by neglecting her domestic duties, by spending, against the will of her husband, larger sums from the common fund than is customary by women of her condition (Cf. also 253). – She may manage the household independently of her husband if he takes no interest in household affairs or if he is incapable of doing his duty in this regard.

Now, that very brief summary aside, the degree of subordination that constitutes “proper subordination” is dependent on various factors including cultural and personal factors.

In any case, subordination of the wife is never something that can be imposed or demanded by the husband against the will of the wife. In the case of a wife who refuses to be subordinate, then a wise husband will accomodate his wife for the sake of the marriage. Even if she sins in her refusal to acknowledge the headship of the husband, if the husband, in his demands for her subordination irreparably damages the marriage, he sins gravely.

In short, I strongly suggest you continue your counseling with the objective of learning how to accomodate your wife for the sake of your marriage. Your job is to help your wife save her soul, and pushing her into divorce by demanding her subordination, even to the extent (whatever it is) to which she is morally obliged, is not going to help her go to Heaven.

 

[LookingHigher]

Humility is a difficult thing. Especially when you’re trying to replace feelings of betrayal, bitterness, resentment, anger, etc. She claims she’s been abused verbally/emotionally, but it’s hard for me to see it. Especially when I see her as the domineering one.

Ultimately, I’m not afraid of going to counseling and discovering I have faults (or am at fault). There’s a lot more to the story though, which I’m trying hard not to put into this forum as I know my wife has read this forum before. And it’s not my intention in this thread to focus blame.

 

[LookingHigher]

From Moral Theology, by Fr. Heribert Jone:

201. – III. Mutual Obligations of Husband and Wife.

1. Duties in Common. Husband and wife must love and help each other; they must grant the marriage right, observe marital fidelity and common life.

There’s a big one. This breeds much anger, bitterness, etc. There are no (and maybe never were) “marriage rights” involved. And we most certainly do not “help each other”. It’s all finger pointing and blame.

All I want is healing. And I also recognize I need a better understanding of each of our marital roles.

 

[bmullins]

This is my understanding of it from my own blog.

Ephesians 5 22-24 Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

This is a very unpopular verse. Mostly because it has been used in the past to make women subservient to their husband, with only he allowed to make decisions. That was not the intent of this passage at all. I will get to that later. First I want to talk bout how the husband is supposed to act.

Ephesians 25-32 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— for we are members of his body. “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church.

Take a moment and let that sink in. There are a few characteristics that we can look at immediately about how we are to treat our wives. Mainly, we can look at how Christ lived his life for the church. Christ came into this world with one goal, to redeem his people to God. To bring his church into himself. We are after all the body of Christ. Christ LIVED literally for the church. He gave his life, his precious blood, for us. He suffered and died, just for the church.

Well husbands, we’ve got some serious shoes to fill, don’t we. We are to love our wife, even when she doesn’t deserve it! Not just when she loves us back, but period! Christ didn’t come down for the saints, he came for the sinners! The people who turned their back on him! We have to love our wives, even when we don’t particularly like her! I believe every couple has that moment as well. The moment when they are definitely not happy with their spouse. Be it when someone spent a great deal of money, without even consulting the other. Or someone hid something from the other. That doesn’t excuse us! We still have to love her!

So what does the first verse tell us then? The one about wives submitting to their husbands? Well it doesn’t seem to make sense if you think of marriage as a union, in which you just dissolve it when you don’t agree anymore. It’s not! Marriage is not something that we just leave when we have a disagreement. Someone has to have the deciding vote. Many people will tell you it’s just the man, but it’s not. It’s God! The man should be approaching God with the problem and saying Father, help me to solve this in your will! Then he should be going to his wife, and saying “You mean more than my own life, what is your opinion in this matter?” Then out of love and trust in the Lord, he should decide. Even if the two members do not agree, they should abide by that decision. Because it was approached with ultimate love for one another, and love for God.

Women love your husbands! Respect them! Help edify them, lord knows we men need our wives support. Men love your wives, more than yourself. No man who loves his wife more than his own life will hold it over her head that he is put in charge of the final vote. He would instead cast that final vote in love for her! Or even step aside and say I love you so much, that we are going to do what you want to to do, even if it’s not what I want to do, as long as it’s God’s will.

Remember Christ came as a servant, he served the church even though he was it’s King. You are to be your wives servant, even if you are the head. That’s what it means to be spiritually the head, that you have went above your own wants and needs and are looking for hers. Because she is being obedient to God by submitting to you, you must be obedient to God and submit to her!

 

[LightBound]

This is my understanding of it from my own blog.

Ephesians 5 22-24 Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

This is a very unpopular verse. Mostly because it has been used in the past to make women subservient to their husband, with only he allowed to make decisions. That was not the intent of this passage at all. I will get to that later. First I want to talk bout how the husband is supposed to act.

Ephesians 25-32 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— for we are members of his body. “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church.

Take a moment and let that sink in. There are a few characteristics that we can look at immediately about how we are to treat our wives. Mainly, we can look at how Christ lived his life for the church. Christ came into this world with one goal, to redeem his people to God. To bring his church into himself. We are after all the body of Christ. Christ LIVED literally for the church. He gave his life, his precious blood, for us. He suffered and died, just for the church.

Well husbands, we’ve got some serious shoes to fill, don’t we. We are to love our wife, even when she doesn’t deserve it! Not just when she loves us back, but period! Christ didn’t come down for the saints, he came for the sinners! The people who turned their back on him! We have to love our wives, even when we don’t particularly like her! I believe every couple has that moment as well. The moment when they are definitely not happy with their spouse. Be it when someone spent a great deal of money, without even consulting the other. Or someone hid something from the other. That doesn’t excuse us! We still have to love her!

So what does the first verse tell us then? The one about wives submitting to their husbands? Well it doesn’t seem to make sense if you think of marriage as a union, in which you just dissolve it when you don’t agree anymore. It’s not! Marriage is not something that we just leave when we have a disagreement. Someone has to have the deciding vote. Many people will tell you it’s just the man, but it’s not. It’s God! The man should be approaching God with the problem and saying Father, help me to solve this in your will! Then he should be going to his wife, and saying “You mean more than my own life, what is your opinion in this matter?” Then out of love and trust in the Lord, he should decide. Even if the two members do not agree, they should abide by that decision. Because it was approached with ultimate love for one another, and love for God.

Women love your husbands! Respect them! Help edify them, lord knows we men need our wives support. Men love your wives, more than yourself. No man who loves his wife more than his own life will hold it over her head that he is put in charge of the final vote. He would instead cast that final vote in love for her! Or even step aside and say I love you so much, that we are going to do what you want to to do, even if it’s not what I want to do, as long as it’s God’s will.

Remember Christ came as a servant, he served the church even though he was it’s King. You are to be your wives servant, even if you are the head. That’s what it means to be spiritually the head, that you have went above your own wants and needs and are looking for hers. Because she is being obedient to God by submitting to you, you must be obedient to God and submit to her!

Outstanding explanation of the roles in marriage!

 

[Leegal]

I’ve been asking her to do joint marital counseling for a long time. Where we stand now however, is that she’s forced me out of the home and insists I get “abuse counseling” and will not entertain marital counseling until my perceived issues are resolved. I won’t get into the details because our history is long and double sided.

Of course there can be no healing until we actually get into real marital counseling. I’m really hoping we can somehow attend a Retrouvaille event in our state in March. However, having 3 children under 5 (one of which is 5 months) may very well prevent us from being able to do so. Which is very disheartening to say the least.

I think she’s right in asking you to do this. It would appear that you need counseling of your own. If you do that she has said she will then consider entering joint counseling. If you go, she will eventually follow you into counseling. I suspect she wants you to gain some personal insight about whatever it was that caused her to force you out before she will work on the marriage with you.

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

Ultimately the submission of the wife has a two-fold foundation: 1) the mutual submission of the spouses to one another as mentioned first by St. Paul, 2) the ultimate self-sacrificing love of the husband. If either of these breaks down, then so too does the submission of the wife. In other words, the wife is not bound by submissiveness to the husband when he is not submitting himself to his wife and/or loving as Christ loved (as describe in the later verses by St. Paul).

When this passage is read carefully it become apparent that the husbands truly have the more difficult task, as one of my Scripture professors pointed out to us (and he wrote his dissertation on this very topic). The husband must be constantly thinking of the good of the wife and sacrificing himself, literally laying down his life, for her good. For the wife’s part, who wouldn’t want to submit completely to someone who was willing to sacrifice anything/everything for their own happiness?

Obviously, this does not mean that the husband has the authority to order his wife around. The husband ought not to be a tyrant. He is a lover, as Christ loves the Church and lays his life down for her. The only explicit command that Christ left us (at least that comes to mind) was, “Love one another as I have loved you.” Our love is shown in our actions.

 

[LookingHigher]

I think she’s right in asking you to do this. It would appear that you need counseling of your own. If you do that she has said she will then consider entering joint counseling. If you go, she will eventually follow you into counseling. I suspect she wants you to gain some personal insight about whatever it was that caused her to force you out before she will work on the marriage with you.

I know you’re right. Where I’m having a hard time honestly is I’m not so sure she really wants to reconcile. I am having a very difficult time in trusting her. I honestly feel betrayed by her through what’s going on. Perhaps that’s an unhealthy response. Perhaps that’s natural.

Up until this happening, she’s NEVER agreed to any type of joint/marital counseling. Family was involved in this. So I’m suspicious as to whether she’s agreeing to marital counseling only because of that. We went from living together one day, to not communicating at all the next. All our communication is now by text message (no phone, no in person). So I’m having a very hard time with that. Text messages are extremely, extremely impersonal in my view.

Anyhow, I’ve seen a counselor as an initial visit. They are requesting to talk to my wife’s counselor so they can determine what it is my wife says I do that’s abusive. So the ball is kind of out of my hands right now as the counselor says we can’t really begin until she knows what I need to deal with.

Pray for us if you would. It’s been over two weeks since we separated. I know my kids have already been affected.

 

[Leegal]

I know you’re right. Where I’m having a hard time honestly is I’m not so sure she really wants to reconcile. I am having a very difficult time in trusting her. I honestly feel betrayed by her through what’s going on. Perhaps that’s an unhealthy response. Perhaps that’s natural.

Up until this happening, she’s NEVER agreed to any type of joint/marital counseling. Family was involved in this. So I’m suspicious as to whether she’s agreeing to marital counseling only because of that. We went from living together one day, to not communicating at all the next. All our communication is now by text message (no phone, no in person). So I’m having a very hard time with that. Text messages are extremely, extremely impersonal in my view.

Anyhow, I’ve seen a counselor as an initial visit. They are requesting to talk to my wife’s counselor so they can determine what it is my wife says I do that’s abusive. So the ball is kind of out of my hands right now as the counselor says we can’t really begin until she knows what I need to deal with.

Pray for us if you would. It’s been over two weeks since we separated. I know my kids have already been affected.

Your wife is Catholic; she has more reason to reconcile than to divorce. I will pray. If she is in therapy, and the two therapists are working together, take it as a sign of hope. Love is patient.

**Dearest God,

I ask that You and the angels help me heal my love life.

I am willing to release any unforgiveness I may beharbouring toward myself and my partner, and I ask that the angels cleanse me of all anger or resentment now.

Please help me see each other through the eyes of love. I ask that all effects of our mistakes be undone in all directions of time.

Please work with my partner so that we may have harmony, romance, friendship, respect, honesty and great love for one another.

Please renew our love. Thank You.

Amen **

God Bless.

 

[couponfit]

I am a Catholic convert. My wife and I converted to Catholicism from an Evangelical Non-Denominational church. I was lead to understand/believe certain things about scripture from that church (and it’s members) that my wife believes do not conform with Catholic teaching on these scriptures.

My wife and I are now currently separated. She’s asserting that I am controlling and verbally/emotionally abusive to her. I am now seeking secular counseling at her request to help identify any issues I may have in that area. I spoke with my Priest also who advised we obviously needed professional counseling.

However, I’m hoping for some help/clarity on what the Catholic Church REALLY believes and teaches on the roles of Husband and Wife in Marriage. I truly believe that when properly married that God creates a permanent bond that legal divorce does not separate.

Here’s where my questions begin:

**1 Corinthians 11 **
But I want you to know that Christ is the head of every man, and a husband the head of his wife, and God the head of Christ. Any man who prays or prophesies with his head covered brings shame upon his head. But any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled brings shame upon her head, for it is one and the same thing as if she had had her head shaved. For if a woman does not have her head veiled, she may as well have her hair cut off. But if it is shameful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should wear a veil. (Excerpt from USCCB.org Bible)

Prior to joining the Catholic Church my wife became convicted that she was to wear a veil or other head covering to Mass. She has since discontinued this practice entirely. What’s interesting to me is that traditionally women always practiced this up until recent history. Scripture appears to say this is an outward sign of man’s headship and oddly claims the angels themselves as a reason women must wear the covering.

Ephesians 5:21-25
Be subordinate to one another out of reverence for Christ.
Wives should be subordinate to their husbands as to the Lord.
For the husband is head of his wife just as Christ is head of the church, he himself the savior of the body.
As the church is subordinate to Christ, so wives should be subordinate to their husbands in everything.
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ loved the church and handed himself over for her (Excerpt from USCCB.org Bible)

Christians must all submit to one another through Love. But it’s unique to me that husbands and wives are ultimately called out separately here. Now I’m not hoping to have someone tell me I can bark orders all day as a husband. But I want to understand what my role is supposed to be. In what way are wives supposed to “subordinate” themselves? It just seems to me that all this scripture would be wasted if there wasn’t an actual point to be made. All scripture is good; all scripture serves to teach us how to live our lives.

So what is the headship of man/husband?

What is the subordination of a woman/wife?

Well it’s like dancing. The man leads, the man makes small gestures and movements. It’s most beautiful when there is a good cooperation and trust. The man must also do the following: Know the moves and understand how to relay and communicate his intentions; be physically and mentally focused on the dance; aim to dance for the sake of enjoyment together; dance regularly. The woman also must be willing to take the cues and go wherever the lead takes her; she must know her own role with each move.

But in the dance like in marriage, there is much that must be put aside. Ignoring your wife, abusing her, making her a slave, and degrading her. In order to be a good husband you must consider that you should honor your wife and seek her betterment. Here in CAF we see a decent number of converts who suddenly don’t understand why their wife is complaining about their decision to convert the family. 1st conversion is a big deal and requires more than simply participating in mass. 2nd conversion truly requires all to individually convert. the husband cannot dictate the wifes free will on what she believes. they can agree on how to handle differences in faith. which faith formation the child will attend, who will provide the lead role, etc.

i think you need to respect your wife and honor her in your own lead. do not expect her to dance where she cannot find her rhythm. take the time to learn new dances together and be understanding of her own feelings.

the relationship and love in catholic teaching between husband and wife is best described as filial.

 

[carn]

Ephesians 5:21-25
Be subordinate to one another out of reverence for Christ.
Wives should be subordinate to their husbands as to the Lord.
For the husband is head of his wife just as Christ is head of the church, he himself the savior of the body.
As the church is subordinate to Christ, so wives should be subordinate to their husbands in everything.
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ loved the church and handed himself over for her (Excerpt from USCCB.org Bible)

Christians must all submit to one another through Love. But it’s unique to me that husbands and wives are ultimately called out separately here. Now I’m not hoping to have someone tell me I can bark orders all day as a husband. But I want to understand what my role is supposed to be. In what way are wives supposed to “subordinate” themselves? It just seems to me that all this scripture would be wasted if there wasn’t an actual point to be made. All scripture is good; all scripture serves to teach us how to live our lives.

So what is the headship of man/husband?

What is the subordination of a woman/wife?

My personal take on this if a literal interpretation is sought:

Wives should submit to husband as the church submits to Christ. The question arises, when does that mean, that the wife must jump when the husband says “Jump!”?

This can be answered by thinking about, when the church has to “jump”, when Christ says “Jump!”. One might be inclined to say “Always!”. But when does Christ actually command the church to “jump”?

When checking out what Christ’s commands are about, one sees the obvious pattern, that Christ’s commands are only about matters of spiritual importance. He does not require anything else of the church. And therefore the church has a lot of freedom regarding things with little or no spiritual importance, because Christ did not command anything regarding these. In these matters no submission is possible and submission would even be wrong if Christ would have commanded the church to do something not of spiritual importance, because then He would have burdened the church with unimportant tasks. So submission of the church is only required regarding things that lie at the core of the “aim” of their “relationship” (that “saving souls” buisiness).

Looking at the husband/wife situation this means that the wife is not required to submit to all his commands, but only those of importance regarding their marriage. This would still leave room for lot of commands, but the difference is, that a wife is capable of judging a husbands mind and therefore can not only determine, whether some command is important regarding their marriage, but also whether the husband has given the command out of respect and in desire to protect and further the marriage. Commands ignoring this would be an abuse of his position, just as it would be abuse of Christ’s position if He had commanded “All have to cut off their left hand.”, if cutting off the left hand has no positive impact regarding once standing with God.

That means that a lot of everyday “commands” (aka polite requests) could be flatly ignored by the wife, because they are not “commands” regarding important things (though maybe she should still follow them, if he remebers to say “Please”). And a lot of commands regarding things important for marriage could also be ignored, if the husband obviously has not the good of the marriage and the familiy in mind (E.g. “Lets have sex now, i do not care whether you get pregnant and whether we can handle another child.”).
Considering it is often complex what is good for marriage and for the family, there are very few situations, where the submission is required.
In my opinion only those in which it is undeniable obvious that the husband is acting only with the good of his family in mind and in which his actions obviously are not detrimetal regarding the goal.

To answer the intial question:
The question arises, when does that mean, that the wife must jump when the husband says “Jump!”?

When he turns to face the murderous thugs trying to bash in the door to buy her time to bring the children to safety.

 

[severus68]

I am a convert too. From what I’ve seen and heard, it appears to me that Catholics except, for maybe the ultra-trads, do not have the same viewpoint regarding the husband being the head of the home as some Evangelicals. Maybe someone will correct me.

That is correct. Perhaps the OP would read John Paul II’s Mulieris Dignitatem?

A paragragh from there:

“The author of the Letter to the Ephesians sees no contradiction between an exhortation formulated in this way and the words: “Wives, be subject to your husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife” (5:22-23). The author knows that this way of speaking, so profoundly rooted in the customs and religious tradition of the time, is to be understood and carried out in a new way: as a “mutual subjection out of reverence for Christ” (cf. Eph 5:21). This is especially true because the husband is called the “head” of the wife as Christ is the head of the Church; he is so in order to give “himself up for her” (Eph 5:25), and giving himself up for her means giving up even his own life. However, whereas in the relationship between Christ and the Church the subjection is only on the part of the Church, in the relationship between husband and wife the “subjection” is not one-sided but mutual.”