marriage

[Reuben_J]

The Bible was written by men (people) and men (people) are fallible. Inspired or not. We’d do a lot better as Catholics, I feel, if we’d spend less time on Paul and more time on some of the others.

This discussion isn’t going to lead anywhere productive.

I disagree but I won’t argue over it if it is for the sake of argument. People I dialogue with who discredit Paul are mainly the Muslims. You are giving bad counsel if you ask Catholics not to listen to Paul who accounts for 13 books (out of 27) of the NT.

 

[on_the_hill]

Yes, you’ve found me out. I’m secretly a Muslim who is subverting the Vatican by not following a literal interpretation of Paul’s writing from 2,000 years ago.

I do this by attending Mass every Sunday and on Holy Days of Obligation, by practicing the Rite of Reconciliation, by raising my children in the Catholic faith, by reciting and believing every word of the Nicene Creed, by praying the Rosary, by reading the CCC…It is my hope, as a Muslim, that in this way one day we’ll have conquered the world and forced it back into the stone age, as we’ve done in Afghanistan.

 

[R1ch4rd]

I as a women of 28 years of age,would not and will never do hard manual work.My husband does all of that.And i think my husband should look after me.And in return i look after the house and do my Godly duties i am suppose to do.I just think men shouls be real men and not try to confuse things becasue then if i was a bad person i could use that to my advantage.Then again each to there own.Culture can really mess with peoples minds and warp there ways of acting good and thinking.

Nice if ya can do it in this economy. My best friend’s son is 38 and was an extremely good and compassionate 1st grade teacher. His wife is a surgical nurse and made twice the salary he did. He stays home and takes care of the kids and is much better at it then his wife and I look at this young man as the epitome of a “real man” and his kids are going to turn out better than most. I don’t think any family should be stereotyped in this ever changing world and each should be willing to share the other’s duties.
What would happen if your husband were unexpectedly unable to “look after” you?

On The Hill: Frankly, if my wife were submissive to me, and I were the undisputed head of my household, we’d be living in a cardboard box.

As would we, and that cardboard box better have a smaller one attached because if I forced my wife to live by Paul’s 2000 year old model, that’s the one I’d be in!

My wife and I have made it forty two years, each doing what one does best. I hope we haven’t displeased Paul too badly

 

[on_the_hill]

Here’s something else–and I really don’t mean to antagonize. This for me, as for everyone, revolves around deeply held convictions. So I want to offer my disagreement in the spirit of community.

But here’s something else–my brother-in-law is a firm believer in Paul’s writings about the marriage roles. My sister basically goes along with him in this.

My brother-in-law is also a Presbyterian. Their first child was baptized in the Church. He insisted their second child be baptized as a Presbyterian. I argued with him about it but he had the final word. (I spoke with our priest about it and he said any Christian baptism is valid, and we should be supportive lest we risk a family split and we should pray for a reconciliation).

My sister and the children attend Presbyterian services every Sunday. They used to go to Mass, but her husband insisted that they also attend services at his church. It became too much for her to have two young children at both, so she eventually dropped Mass. It was what her husband wanted.

We live several hours, by car, from them.

When we are visiting them, she and the children do come to Mass with us but that’s the only time they do. Also, my nephew (our Godson) is 11 years old and has yet to receive any Sacraments since Baptism.

So what’s better? That she defy her husband and struggle with the consequences? Or that she follow Ephesians and maintain marital unity? There are realities of life here on Earth that we need to consider, realities that perhaps didn’t exist at the time of Paul.

 

[R1ch4rd]

Paul outlines these roles very clearly in Ephsians 5.

24 As the church is subordinate to Christ, so wives should be** subordinate to their husbands in* everything***.
.

This was more relevant 2000 years ago then it is today . Then again, if Jesus had waited 2000 years to become man, he would have been put to death by lethal injection instead of being crucified.

 

[on_the_hill]

This was more relevant 2000 years ago then it is today . Then again, if Jesus had waited 2000 years to become man, he would have been put to death by lethal injection instead of being crucified.

Saul would have been tried for crimes against humanity. As it is, he’s one of the best examples we have of the power of reconciliation, and we have to keep that in mind. And maybe I’d agree with him more if he had been interpreted and translated differently over those 2,000 years.

 

[on_the_hill]

Or, more likely, blown off the road to Damascus by an unmanned drone.

 

[catholicsaint]

on_the_hill,

I watched a film about the life of Saint Paul after the cruxification of jesus.I was wondering do you think there was anything going on with rubins wife and paul? She looked very much close to Paul and lied to her husband Rubin about were Paul was in damascus!
Rubin’s wife said she did not love him,and she had a close attatchment with Paul!
What you think??

 

[catholicsaint]

Saint Paul was a Jewish preist then right?

and

Rubin was a Jewish preist also.They were freinds.

Rubin did make remark in film that Paul wanted her as his wife!

But Jewish preist’s were allowed to marry so i suppose no harm.

 

[on_the_hill]

catholicsaint,

I have no idea. Didn’t see the film, don’t know the story.

 

[Reuben_J]

"Reuben J:

Paul outlines these roles very clearly in Ephsians 5.

24 As the church is subordinate to Christ, so wives should be subordinate to their husbands in everything.

This was more relevant 2000 years ago then it is today . Then again, if Jesus had waited 2000 years to become man, he would have been put to death by lethal injection instead of being crucified.

I can understand how you feel about this but I have explained to you what Eph 5 means in context. Verse 24 must be read and understood with verses 22, 23, 25, 26 and 27, and not to be taken in isolation.

The subordination of the wife to the husband in everything is insofar the husband loves her as Jesus loves the Church. When the husband becomes like Christ in her life, the subordination is mutual. They would be subjected to each other out of respect. Thus Paul likens it to the Church’s relationship with Jesus. We subordinate to Jesus in that he wants us to because His law is upright, truth and love.

Obviously a wife cannot be submissive or obey the husband in everything. If the husband asks her to murder, for example, which lead to mortal sin, a wife cannot be submissive to that because that is not how Jesus loves the Church.

The important principle in this relationship is to put God as the Lord of our marriage.

I have to disagree with you again, that St. Paul as in Eph 5 is obsolete. The word of God is everlasting and for all ages. That piece of advice still rings true today.

 

[Reuben_J]

Basically the role of a husband as is taught in Eph 5 is for the husband to serve (the wife) as Jesus does to His Church - ‘The greatest among you is a servant to all’. He also loves the wife and is willing to lay his life for her. He will love his wife’s body as his own and who would not take care of your own body? He will be her leader and nurture her spiritually so that when he presents her to the Church to himself,*** she would be glorious, with no speck or wrinkle or anything like that, but holy and spotless*** (5:27). That’s how a husband’s love for his wife should be.

In return a wife is to be submissive to him in all things that are taught and approved by Christ. There is no lording of the husband over the wife. That is from secular mentality and culture.

 

[Reuben_J]

… We’d do a lot better as Catholics, I feel, if we’d spend less time on Paul and more time on some of the others.

We as Church is also apostolic. We are built on the teachings of the apostles and are exhorted to listen to them. If our fore-parents in the faith were anything to go by, our practice today is not much different.

Acts 2:42 -They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer

 

[R1ch4rd]

I can understand how you feel about this but I have explained to you what Eph 5 means in context. Verse 24 must be read and understood with verses 22, 23, 25, 26 and 27, and not to be taken in isolation.

The subordination of the wife to the husband in everything is insofar the husband loves her as Jesus loves the Church. When the husband becomes like Christ in her life, the subordination is mutual. They would be subjected to each other out of respect. Thus Paul likens it to the Church’s relationship with Jesus. We subordinate to Jesus in that he wants us to because His law is upright, truth and love.

Obviously a wife cannot be submissive or obey the husband in everything. If the husband asks her to murder, for example, which lead to mortal sin, a wife cannot be submissive to that because that is not how Jesus loves the Church.

The important principle in this relationship is to put God as the Lord of our marriage.

I have to disagree with you again, that** St. Paul as in Eph 5 is obsolete.** The word of God is everlasting and for all ages. That piece of advice still rings true today.

I did not say obsolete, I said less relevant as are the following:
“Happy those who seize your children and smash them against a rock.” (Psalm 137:9)
“Slaves, be subject to your masters with all reverence, not only to those who are good and equitable but also to those who are perverse.” (1 Peter 2:18)
“I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man. She must be quiet.” (1 Timothy 2:12)

 

[on_the_hill]

We as Church is also apostolic. We are built on the teachings of the apostles and are exhorted to listen to them. If our fore-parents in the faith were anything to go by, our practice today is not much different.

Acts 2:42 -They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer

Why the heavy reliance on Paul, though? Why not use the writings/teachings of the others? (I want to hear from the apostles I might agree with! )

 

[on_the_hill]

“I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man. She must be quiet.” (1 Timothy 2:12)

During a recent homily, a priest praised a woman who had been ordained (or nearly ordained) in a Protestant faith and she subsequently converted to Catholicism. She is now a professor at a Catholic seminary. Things that make you go, “Hmmm…”

 

[catholicsaint]

On the hill…

That is just messed up??

She wants one thing but yet seeks another!!

There is catholic preist’s that have different opinons about these things. But with falling numbers of people going to mass it is a catch 22 situation. Think of the damage he could of done by saying that and think of damage he might not have done. More people might come to mass for his opnion and more people might not becasue of his opnion. I remember hearing a statment once someone said like this: just because majority of people think something is right does not make it right.

With all truth and honesty i think priest’s in general should not give secular cultural opinons that can, 1.Stop there advancement in there job, 2.divide the church in 2 for the sake of arugment.

Some people could think why should i go to the catholic church if iam to hear this because after all i go for spirtual strength and my loyalty to Jesus and the church.

Catholic preist’s should be warriors of God and not let there opinons take control.
Like in any job you do what you are told.
If i had a job and i was told to do something and i did not do it, most def i would be fired.

 

[R1ch4rd]

On the hill…

That is just messed up??

She wants one thing but yet seeks another!!

There is catholic preist’s that have different opinons about these things. But with falling numbers of people going to mass it is a catch 22 situation. Think of the damage he could of done by saying that and think of damage he might not have done. More people might come to mass for his opnion and more people might not becasue of his opnion. I remember hearing a statment once someone said like this: just because majority of people think something is right does not make it right.

With all truth and honesty i think priest’s in general should not give secular cultural opinons that can, 1.Stop there advancement in there job, 2.divide the church in 2 for the sake of arugment.

Some people could think why should i go to the catholic church if iam to hear this because after all i go for spirtual strength and my loyalty to Jesus and the church.

Catholic preist’s should be warriors of God and not let there opinons take control.
Like in any job you do what you are told.
If i had a job and i was told to do something and i did not do it, most def i would be fired.

During a recent homily, a priest praised a woman who had been ordained (or nearly ordained) in a Protestant faith and she subsequently converted to Catholicism. She is now a professor at a Catholic seminary. Things that make you go, “Hmmm…”

I may be missing something here, but I don’t see anything in the homily that could be viewed as controversial. I’m going on a limb and assuming that “Things that make you go, Hmmm” was inserted by** on the hill** and not part of the homily. There is no mention of her as a priest. Sounds like a priest, praising a Protestant who converted to Catholicism and is now teaching at a Catholic seminary. Do you read more in the post?

 

[catholicsaint]

Maybe i got it wrong. Its not too clear for me to understand. Anyway if iam wrong iam wrong sorry.

Maybe my bad!!!

 

[Reuben_J]

I did not say obsolete, I said less relevant as are the following:
“Happy those who seize your children and smash them against a rock.” (Psalm 137:9)
“Slaves, be subject to your masters with all reverence, not only to those who are good and equitable but also to those who are perverse.” (1 Peter 2:18)
“I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man. She must be quiet.” (1 Timothy 2:12)

Fair enough. I agree they were less relevant now certainly. I would not go over the verses quoted in detail, but surely the message from these are still relevant though today. Yes, we do not have any slavery, but those days slavery was a system quite close to a contract and an employer/employee relationship. A good slave obeyed his master and his master should be fair to him. In fact the master could even treat him like a relative, a part of the household (ref. letter to Philemon). Of course this is all from Christian’s perspective.

About prohibiting women to teach is probably more controversial and I will not touch on that. A thing to note though, very often this verse is being used against Catholicism.

What I want to say is the Bible is to be looked at for the message it brings. You are right in that people’s activities then may be different than now but the message, the value, are not. What amazed me all the time, the ancient wisdom in the Bible is still very much applied today and how people behaved then still very much what people behave today though in a different practical situation.

God bless.