Married 3 times - living in perpetual mortal sin?

[tigerlillies]

I know of someone who is on her 3rd marriage. I believe that these divorces and marriages occured BEFORE she became a Christian. She is now an evangelical non-denominational Christian - and appears to be very close to Jesus. Is she living in mortal sin? I know that if it was me, being Catholic, I would be… Because she doesn’t believe she is, does that make it ok? Aren’t all of God’s laws for ALL PEOPLE? Don’t they apply to all?

I just find it very confusing… If we are living in mortal sin, I was under the impression that we were without the Grace of God that the sin separates us from God. Wouldn’t that mean that those outside the Catholic Church are also in this predicament if they are with mortal sin?

Suggestions are appreciated.

Happy Thanksgiving to all (it’s Thanksgiving in Canada today, not sure if it’s the same for the USA).

God bless.

 

[ljprevo]

Yes she is living in sin.

 

[Charitychick]

remember the three conditions:

1. grave matter–yes, it is grave matter.
2. Full consent–yes, she chose to remarry.
3. Full knowledge–probably not–I’m sure she doesn’t know that remarriage is wrong. Most Protestant churches don’t get it or teach it.

You can pray to the Holy Spirit to enlighten her.

 

[jmcrae]

It is certainly grave matter.

Mortal sin has three requirements:

Grave matter. Remarriage after a divorce is definitely grave matter - it goes directly against the sixth commandment, and Jesus speaks clearly against it in the Sermon on the Mount.

Full knowledge. Does she actually know that it is wrong to be married again after a divorce? On the one hand, this seems to be part of the natural law - a “no brainer” if you will. How could somebody not know that it’s wrong, we ask ourselves? Especially if she reads the Bible. On the other hand, many people’s natural consciences have been deadened, and she may be in an environment where although the plain word of the Scriptures is available to her, for some reason she is not accessing them, or they have been reinterpreted to her in such a way that she doesn’t see how they apply to her situation. (She may have been given a load of donkey poo about some kind of a “biblical divorce” that somehow makes it okay to remarry.)

Full consent of the will. - She may have experienced overwhelming pressure to become remarried due to a financial situation, or out of a sense of obligation to her children to provide them with the emotional support of a father figure, or even from family members and friends who convinced her that she “deserved” to be married. If her knowledge was weak to begin with, these pressures could have swayed her to become remarried even if something in her conscience was telling her not to do this.

If the second two criteria don’t apply to her, then she is not in a state of mortal sin - however, the natural consequences of this action will continue to apply to her, and there will also be consequences in Purgatory that she will experience, as well.

 

[tigerlillies]

remember the three conditions:

1. Full knowledge–probably not–I’m sure she doesn’t know that remarriage is wrong. Most Protestant churches don’t get it or teach it.

Ok, about the #3 - full knowledge - I agree that most people outside the CC don’t get it BUT the Bible tells us! Jesus and others teach that divorce and remarriage is wrong and sinful. Again I can’t help but see that some pick and chose how they “interpret” the Bible. It’s obvious from scripture that it’s wrong - it’s one of the 10 commandments! Isn’t it amazing…?!

 

[YADA]

Really, instead of worrying about the perpetual sin of anothr person, I worry about the state of my own soul…

And as others have posted a person cannot sin ‘accidentally or unknowingly’

By your own post you said her marriages occurred before she bacame a Christian…you want to hold a non-christian to the standards established for a christian [sacramental - three to get married [quoting Bishop Sheen]] - God and the couple?

Also, many non-catholic faith traditions allow for divorce and re-marriage - a follower of the teachings provided [followed in good faith as they are taught] have less culpability [and remember unless you can adhere perfectly being sin free - you are not in a position to judge], they are christians and living that life as they understand it.

I am so thankful that I have the church to guide me in my Christian faith. I am so thankful that I have the Church to facilitate my reconcilliation to God and my community [faith, family and secular] when I sin. And I am so thankful that it is God who will judge my life [not the Church, not you not any person or institution]. God alone judges the ‘perpetual’, the “venial”, the 'mortal" sins of man. God alone seperates the sheep from the goats…I would not want you [or any person] to be that judge because I am counting upon true mercy…

 

[tigerlillies]

Really, instead of worrying about the perpetual sin of anothr person, I worry about the state of my own soul…

And as others have posted a person cannot sin ‘accidentally or unknowingly’

By your own post you said her marriages occurred before she bacame a Christian…you want to hold a non-christian to the standards established for a christian [sacramental - three to get married [quoting Bishop Sheen]] - God and the couple?

Also, many non-catholic faith traditions allow for divorce and re-marriage - a follower of the teachings provided [followed in good faith as they are taught] have less culpability [and remember unless you can adhere perfectly being sin free - you are not in a position to judge], they are christians and living that life as they understand it.

I am so thankful that I have the church to guide me in my Christian faith. I am so thankful that I have the Church to facilitate my reconcilliation to God and my community [faith, family and secular] when I sin. And I am so thankful that it is God who will judge my life [not the Church, not you not any person or institution]. God alone judges the ‘perpetual’, the “venial”, the 'mortal" sins of man. God alone seperates the sheep from the goats…I would not want you [or any person] to be that judge because I am counting upon true mercy…

YADA - you obviously did not read my post very well and in response YOU judged me - funny how you accused me of judging when you are the one judging… I am not judging this person at all. I was just wondering/curious whether others are held as accountable as we are and was asking for the opinions of others. It may be in this person’s best interest that someone (maybe myself) point out to her that she is living in sin - to help her - NOT TO CONDEMN or judge. I love this person and I pray for her…

You YADA, should really watch how you JUDGE others! It’s offensive to be so critical when a person is just asking for help. May God touch your heart and fill it with love…

 

[jmcrae]

YADA - you obviously did not read my post very well and in response YOU judged me - funny how you accused me of judging when you are the one judging… I am not judging this person at all. I was just wondering/curious whether others are held as accountable as we are and was asking for the opinions of others. It may be in this person’s best interest that someone (maybe myself) point out to her that she is living in sin - to help her - NOT TO CONDEMN or judge. I love this person and I pray for her.

Keep on praying for her.

I don’t know that it would do any good to point out that she is in an ongoing state of sin, unless she comes into a position to be able to do something about it. (For example, if she is thinking about becoming a Catholic, thus becoming eligible to receive a Declaration of Nullity for her previous marriages.)

 

[DanteAlighieri]

Ok, about the #3 - full knowledge - I agree that most people outside the CC don’t get it BUT **the Bible tells us! Jesus and others teach that divorce and remarriage is wrong and sinful. **Again I can’t help but see that some pick and chose how they “interpret” the Bible. It’s obvious from scripture that it’s wrong - it’s one of the 10 commandments! Isn’t it amazing…?!

You have to remember, too, that many Protestant translations contain vastly different renderings from those of the Catholic translations. Example:

First, the good ol’ DRV:

Douay-Rheims Bible
But I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, excepting for the cause of fornication, maketh her to commit adultery: and he that shall marry her that is put away, committeth adultery.

GOD’S WORD® Translation (©1995)
But I can guarantee that any man who divorces his wife for any reason other than unfaithfulness makes her look as though she has committed adultery. Whoever marries a woman divorced in this way makes himself look as though he has committed adultery.

Makes her/himself look as though they’ve committed adultery? Wow…

Bible in Basic English
But I say to you that everyone who puts away his wife for any other cause but the loss of her virtue, makes her false to her husband; and whoever takes her as his wife after she is put away, is** no true husband to her**.

Young’s Literal Translation
but I – I say to you, that whoever may put away his wife, save for the matter of whoredom, doth make her to commit adultery; and whoever may marry her who hath been put away doth commit adultery.

So, as long as she’s not a whore, I can’t divorce her?

So, as you can see, it’s easy enough for a Protestant to be indoctrinated by poor translations of Scripture, especially when they’re told from an early age that Catholic translations are unreliable.

Peace,
Dante

 

[tigerlillies]

You have to remember, too, that many Protestant translations contain vastly different renderings from those of the Catholic translations. Example:

First, the good ol’ DRV:

Makes her/himself look as though they’ve committed adultery? Wow…



So, as long as she’s not a whore, I can’t divorce her?

So, as you can see, it’s easy enough for a Protestant to be indoctrinated by poor translations of Scripture, especially when they’re told from an early age that Catholic translations are unreliable.

Peace,
Dante

Pretty sad state of affairs when “people” change the word of God! Like the Bible itself tells us - some will twist the words to their own destruction (or something like that)!
Thanks for the information!

 

[YADA]

YADA - you obviously did not read my post very well and in response YOU judged me - funny how you accused me of judging when you are the one judging… I am not judging this person at all. I was just wondering/curious whether others are held as accountable as we are and was asking for the opinions of others. It may be in this person’s best interest that someone (maybe myself) point out to her that she is living in sin - to help her - NOT TO CONDEMN or judge. I love this person and I pray for her…

You YADA, should really watch how you JUDGE others! It’s offensive to be so critical when a person is just asking for help. May God touch your heart and fill it with love…

But you want to hold her to “your” standards…even your response to me implies that is is certain she is in sin and you want to help her [in her best interest].

If these marriages and divorces occurred before she became a chirstian then you are presuming that her baptism [becoming a christian] did not cleanse her of sin [original and personal] So how can she remain in a state of mortal sin, that you must caution her of?

The very set up of the post and your question implies a guilt of sin on this person. And divorce is not de facto a sin, re-marriage [after civil divorce - while a sacramental marriage bond still exists would be sinful] as the church teaches. The church makes the presumption that all civil and protestant marriages are valis until the opposite is proven…but I would never presume to tell a person that they entered into a valid sacramental marriage [in a Christian context] - especially if they were not even Christian. A catholic may divorce and still receive the sacraments of Eucharist and Reconcilliation - they would be prevented from contracting a marriage unless and until they received a decree of nullity for the first marriage…

Pray for them, if they are married currently, a discussion about the sacramentallity of the marriage bond would be prudent and beneficial going forward for her chirstian life…otherwise any personal sin committed prior to her baptism should be presumed to have been washed away…three marriages and divorces [past tense and pre-christian are not for anyone to judge].

 

[jmcrae]

But you want to hold her to “your” standards…even your response to me implies that is is certain she is in sin and you want to help her [in her best interest].

If these marriages and divorces occurred before she became a chirstian then you are presuming that her baptism [becoming a christian] did not cleanse her of sin [original and personal] So how can she remain in a state of mortal sin, that you must caution her of?

Because she continues to remain in an adulterous situation - a marriage subsequent to a divorce. Every time she lies with her current “husband” she is committing adultery against her true husband, which is the first one that she married, for better or for worse until death us do part, as she herself said in her vows.

 

[tigerlillies]

But you want to hold her to “your” standards…even your response to me implies that is is certain she is in sin and you want to help her [in her best interest].

If these marriages and divorces occurred before she became a chirstian then you are presuming that her baptism [becoming a christian] did not cleanse her of sin [original and personal] So how can she remain in a state of mortal sin, that you must caution her of?

The very set up of the post and your question implies a guilt of sin on this person. And divorce is not de facto a sin, re-marriage [after civil divorce - while a sacramental marriage bond still exists would be sinful] as the church teaches. The church makes the presumption that all civil and protestant marriages are valis until the opposite is proven…but I would never presume to tell a person that they entered into a valid sacramental marriage [in a Christian context] - especially if they were not even Christian. A catholic may divorce and still receive the sacraments of Eucharist and Reconcilliation - they would be prevented from contracting a marriage unless and until they received a decree of nullity for the first marriage…

Pray for them, if they are married currently, a discussion about the sacramentallity of the marriage bond would be prudent and beneficial going forward for her chirstian life…otherwise any personal sin committed prior to her baptism should be presumed to have been washed away…three marriages and divorces [past tense and pre-christian are not for anyone to judge].

YADA YADA YADA…
No, I am not holding her to my standards - it’s God’s standards, given to us in the form of sacred scripture and sacred tradition- not mine!

What it sounds like you are saying - YADA - is that those who are not Christian are not required to obey God’s laws? So if I were an atheist, it would be “ok” for me to marry and divorce as many times as I wanted and I would not be sinning because I don’t believe in sin? Is this how you understanding it? (PLEASE DON’T BOTHER ANSWERING AS I AM NOT INTERESTED IN YOUR OPINIONS). My understanding (and I may be wrong) is that we are ALL judged by God. Some may be held more accountable because they “know” more but it still does not take away the responsiblity that a person has in following the commandments and such???

You don’t have to tell me what the Church teaches as far as divorce goes either - I know (as was mentioned in my post) that divorce in and or itself is not necessarily a “sin”.

YADA, you know what would be in your best interest and the best interest of others? Keep your “negative opinions” to yourself. As you may have noticed, the others in this thread were “decent” and helpful while all you have done is been critical and judgemental. No one appreciates that kind of help. And I definitely will not be taking any of your advice, not now and not ever!

May God give you peace.

 

[jrabs]

YADA, you know what would be in your best interest and the best interest of others? Keep your “negative opinions” to yourself. As you may have noticed, the others in this thread were “decent” and helpful while all you have done is been critical and judgemental. No one appreciates that kind of help. And I definitely will not be taking any of your advice, not now and not ever!

May God give you peace.

Interesting post.

I did not find YADA’s post negative or insulting. But find your strong reaction to YADA very abrasive. Lighten up on YADA.

YADA’s post was something you did not want to hear. Thing is, you posted a question on a discussion forum. You’re gonna get opinions and comments and some dissenting from your opinion.

Get your thick skin on. This is a discussion forum. But name calling and the like is just not full of grace.

 

[jmcrae]

Some may be held more accountable because they “know” more but it still does not take away the responsiblity that a person has in following the commandments and such???

Absolutely - and they will be held to account for their sins, to the degree that they were accountable for them, either in this life or the next.

When I converted, I didn’t get a “free pass” for my pre-conversion sins. I had to go to Confession and confess them all, in kind and number, before I could be admitted to the Sacraments of Confirmation and First Holy Communion.

It was hard to make that First Confession, but I think about how much harder Purgatory would have been if I had died in that state, and I thank God for the Church, and for the grace of my conversion.

 

[gardenswithkids]

I know of someone who is on her 3rd marriage. I believe that these divorces and marriages occured BEFORE she became a Christian. She is now an evangelical non-denominational Christian - and appears to be very close to Jesus. Is she living in mortal sin? I know that if it was me, being Catholic, I would be… Because she doesn’t believe she is, does that make it ok? Aren’t all of God’s laws for ALL PEOPLE? Don’t they apply to all?

I just find it very confusing… If we are living in mortal sin, I was under the impression that we were without the Grace of God that the sin separates us from God. Wouldn’t that mean that those outside the Catholic Church are also in this predicament if they are with mortal sin?

Suggestions are appreciated…

Suggestion: reflect on the story of the Samaritan woman at the well who encountered Jesus recorded in John 4: 4-42. She didn’t have just three husband–she had five, and she was living with a man who wasn’t even her husband. Yet she still encountered Jesus.

The part that’s confusing is grace. If your friend is now close with Jesus, it is because He reaches out to sinners and offers His grace.

Objectively speaking, re-marriage following divorce while the first spouse still lives is serious sin–that doesn’t change. I doubt that she thinks too highly of her previous life as she has now converted to Christianity. From the standpoint of Catholic marriage law, if the previous marriages took place before the woman was a baptized Christian, then they probably weren’t sacramental marriages. That doesn’t make divorce and remarriage okay, but it means that she might be able to obtain annulments. Those are technicalities. If she one day wanted to become Catholic, she might be able to straighten out her marriage status in the eyes of the Church. Her current marriage situation is rather messy, but just as Jesus encountered the Samaritan woman with five husbands who was living in sin, He still can offer His grace to whomever He wishes.

 

[puzzleannie]

I know of someone who is on her 3rd marriage. I believe that these divorces and marriages occured BEFORE she became a Christian. She is now an evangelical non-denominational Christian - and appears to be very close to Jesus. Is she living in mortal sin? I .

I don’t know and neither does anyone else except God. In any case none of our business. It is extremely destructive to one’s own spiritual health to speculate about the condition of another person’s soul. It is simply not possible, either, to make any judgement about the validity of another person’s marriage without knowing all the facts, which none of us are privy to, so also a worthless speculation. If she asks your advice, you can explain Catholic teaching on marriage and divorce, but if you are not her priest you are not in a position to comment on her state.

 

[Charitychick]

I’d like to add that Protestant pastors often don’t chastise for remarriage. I know a lady who has been married and divorced twice. Her pastor counselled her to wait a year before dating again.

I think the average Christian really depends on their spiritual leaders for guidance. We are very fortunate to have an authoritative Church to guide us.

Even when people should know better, the world, other Christians, even their pastors are telling them that remarriage is okay. So, it’s understandable that they are confused. Their culpability is reduced.

However, Catholics who remarry without an annulment have a deeper culpability…they have the clear and universal teaching of the Church on divorce and remarriage.

 

[pyropam]

I am a new Catholic. I just became Catholic at Easter. I just wanted to give some of you a correct answer.

I have been married several times.

I have been divorced several times.

I am now married to a non-practicing Catholic man.

I was un-baptised until Easter 2007.

My ex-husbands were un-baptised (except for one of them maybe)

No Annulment was required.

Most protestant churches not only don’t tell you that divorce and re-marriage are wrong, they allow you to be re-married in the church. I was! Remember, that was the big “break-away” from the Catholic church to begin with, the King of England wanted to Divorce his wife and the Church wouldn’t let him…so he killed her and then started the “Church of England”.

Evidently, we are not held accountable if we are un-baptised. We held true to our faith and teachings at the time.

A very good friend of mine joined the Church with me at Easter. She has been married several times as well. Her first husband died last year of cancer… and since the Church only recognized her first marriage as valid, now she is a widow… even though she has several other ex-husbands. So she is now free to marry again.

You asked if your friend is living in sin, has she be baptised? Have any of her husbands? Was she married in a church? See, only God knows her heart and her life.

 

[mesquite_magic]

Because she continues to remain in an adulterous situation - a marriage subsequent to a divorce. Every time she lies with her current “husband” she is committing adultery against her true husband, which is the first one that she married, for better or for worse until death us do part, as she herself said in her vows.

But was it a Christian marriage?

I’m on my second marriage, but because my first marriage was in-valid in the eyes of the Church, I’m better off divorced and remarried.

Kim