Married and celebate

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Also, small pedantry point: “celibate” means “unmarried.” So you can’t be married and celibate, but you can be married and sexually continent.
 
Bottom line, it’s up to God. If we are physically able to do or not do something.
 
KevinK said:
Is it possible to be married by a priest and the marriage be invalid?
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Of course…but impotence is notoriously hard to establish for sure until you’ve tried.
Therefore a wise priest will give the benefit of the doubt - especially as there are so many medical interventions available now.

But hey, if you get married and 12 months later confirm for sure you are impotent by all means stop sleeping with your beloved, self accuse yourself and get an annulment 🙂.

Cannot say I have ever heard of anyone foolish enough to do that in their 70s after finding love again. Not sure what the sin would be for not doing so - it certainly cannot be adultery 🤣.
 
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Ceilbacy is a state of life, if one is married they are not celibate.

Two people must be able to complete the marital act in order to enter into a valid marriage.
 
At the risk of TMI, there are morally acceptable ways to determine whether or not intercourse is possible. Men have a surge of testosterone first thing in the morning and usually wake up with a spontaneous erection. (It goes away by itself.) If they’re not getting that it can be a sign of impotence. Women should be getting annual exams. If the provider can’t insert a speculum without them having too much pain, it’s a fairly good indication they can’t have intercourse.
 
The Catholic Church teaches that you must be able to have sexual intercourse in order to be married…the couple doesn’t have to have sex… just has to be able to (Jospehite Marriage)

Canon Law section 1084:
§1. Antecedent and perpetual impotence to have intercourse, whether on the part of the man or the woman, whether absolute or relative, nullifies marriage by its very nature.

My opinion, this is a stupid rule… but one that the Church is pretty clear on.
 
I thought a “Josephite marriage” is allowed, but only as long as both spouses agreed to it. The couple is supposed to be guided by a spiritual director throughout their marriage, and if one spouse desires a “traditional marriage” at some point, they are supposed to move towards that. So even with a Josephite marriage, both spouses would need to have the physical ability to consummate the marriage.

I believe I read that Sts. Zelie and Louis Martin started with a Josephite marriage.
 
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You do not seem to be talking about a Josephite marriage.
Can you reference your source?
 
13pollitos said:
I thought a “Josephine marriage” is allowed, but only as long as both spouses agreed to it. with a Josephine marriage, both spouses would need to have the physical ability to consummate the marriage.

I believe I read that Sts. Zelie and Louis Martin started with a Josephine marriage.
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Not wanting to be pedantic, but for the sake of others trying to find this term in google etc…

The correct term is ‘Josephite’ i.e. like St. Joseph. not 'Josephine; which is a girl’s name. I think you’ll find this was pointed out much earlier in this discussion.
 
KevinK said:
Are you saying this is a local decision up to the parish priest and there is no official universal Church doctrine on this subject?
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There is an official teaching. The parish priest is responsible for interpretting and applying it to the particular situation. Priests may occasionally disagree, but one could always ask for a second opinion.

The reason one should approach a priest, rather than the internet, is that a priest is better trained to ask the relevant questions to better give an informed opinion. He would ask, for example, about the couple’s health about and intended living arrangements to determine if a proper marriage were possible.

Advise on the internet is too easily confusing and contradictory, because different authors have different assumptions that may not apply. You’ll note complex topics about “Josephite marriages” or “impotence” are mentioned in the first few replies. Someone unfamiliar with church law may easily get lost. The parish priest is responsible for helping a couple navigate these issues.
 
Sophie111 said:
You do not seem to be talking about a Josephite marriage.
Can you reference your source?
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https://www.osv.com/Article/TabId/4.../In-marriage-models-of-love-and-devotion.aspx

“Louis initially offered Zélie a “Josephite” (that is, celibate) marriage, revealing a spiritual understanding of marriage that was far removed from the domineering relationships in which so many new brides found themselves. Likewise, Zélie’s somewhat reluctant acceptance of the offer also shows a religious attitude that made her a natural match for this quiet man. However, their spiritual adviser quickly put an end to this arrangement, and Zélie eventually gave birth to nine children, five of whom survived to adulthood.”


“After their wedding in Alençon, France, on July 13, 1858, Louis Martin and Zélie Guérin refrained from sex for 10 months. The impetus for that arrangement, known as a “Josephite marriage” (after the celibate relationship between St. Joseph and his wife, Mary), came from Louis, who had earlier hoped to enter a monastery. Eventually, a frustrated Zélie escorted her husband to a local priest, who assured them that raising children was a sacred activity…“
paperwight said:
Not wanting to be pedantic, but for the sake of others trying to find this term in google etc…
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Yes you are correct. My phone auto corrected it and I did not catch it until you pointed it out. Thank you!
 
13pollitos said:
if one spouse desires a “traditional marriage” at some point, they are supposed to move towards that.
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Thanks for that.
The ambiguous (and mistaken) point you seemed to make was:

“if one spouse desires a “traditional marriage” at some point, they are supposed to move towards that…”

You appeared to be saying they could cohabit chastely before marriage.

By the way there is no need to have a spiritual director. It is clear the wife in your example appeared not to have agreed and dragged her misguided husband to a priest simply to tell him the duties of married life!
 
If it is due to unwillingness I don’t see why they would be getting married to start with. Paul says to only withhold for a short period for prayer and fasting.
 
Actually she did agree originally to a Josephite marriage. It was later on that she was overcome with the desire to have children. I am SO glad she did. The world needed her beautiful family!

I will look for the article I originally read about them in. I believe it was in an article in National Catholic Register. If I find it, I will post a link.

It may have been in a book about them instead. I’ll see what I can find.
 
I haven’t been able to find the original article, but this is a very well know part of their married lives. The spouses had both wanted to enter into religious orders but were unable. St. Louis Martin’s mother acted as a matchmaker for them as she saw they were both very compatible. St. Zelie immediately knew St. Louis was the man God had in mind for her spouse (After both being rejected from religious orders, they passed each other on a bridge where Zélie heard a voice say, “This is he whom I have prepared for you.”)

When they married, they intended live as brother and sister and to serve God first, but at the urging of their spiritual director (this illustrates the need for a spiritual director in these circumstances), decided to have as many children as possible in order “that he and she should found a family of saints in accordance with his own desire.” Spiritual directors keep the couple pointing towards God and helps them discern His will. It is easy to fall into pride or other sins. I am sure there are many more reasons a spiritual director is necessary.

Here are just a handful of the many sources of information available on the marriage of these great saints. They will serve as true role models for all spouses and families during our times and in the future. They fully lived their vocation and reached their goal of placing God first and raising a household of saints by living for their children.





 
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The discussions have been interesting, but they all assume that the primary function of marriage it to form a family and produce children—to procreate—all of which is appropriate and good for those of child-bearing age. But what about older people well beyond their childbearing years, those widowers and widows who already have children of their own, children who are grown and have families of their own? The question really addresses such older couples who desire intimacy and companionship with someone they love and who oftentimes are physically unable to have intercourse. True, they may undergo hormone therapy or other medical procedures, but such options are accompanied inevitably by a variety of health risks, some of which are quite serious. God calls us to embrace and honor every phase of life, not to try “turning back the clock” artificially for our own selfish desires, trying to drive a square peg into a round hole, as it were (ha, ha, ha!).

The question applies to a whole segment of God’s family (our parents and grandparents, for example) many of whom have served God faithfully in marriage and family for decades. Now, with spouses deceased and 20 or 30 years still in front of them, they desire an intimate, loving relationship, blessed by God. If the Church doesn’t allow them to remarry and they can’t live together, what are they to do?

It seems like such folks “fall through the cracks” in our theology and pastoral care. It would be interesting to hear from priests or bishops who actively minister to such older people.
 
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ARTICLE 7
THE SACRAMENT OF MATRIMONY

1601 "The matrimonial covenant, by which a man and a woman establish between themselves a partnership of the whole of life, is by its nature ordered toward the good of the spouses and the procreation and education of offspring; this covenant between baptized persons has been raised by Christ the Lord to the dignity of a sacrament."84

The above is from the catechism. (Link below)

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c3a7.htm

Another link about marriage and impotence written by a priest:

www.catholicherald.com

Straight Answers: Impotence and Infertility - Arlington Catholic Herald

Can a person who is impotent or infertile get married in the Catholic Church?
www.catholicherald.com www.catholicherald.com

This is a good piece, also written by a priest:

www.google.com

Impotence & Marriage

Over the years I have received a number of questions about disabilities and marriage. I am always reminded about one of my first ministerial tasks at the Washington Hospital Center in the District …
www.google.com www.google.com

And this final link:

http://jimmyakin.com/2005/05/impotence_vs_in.html

I do hope that you get the answers you are seeking. I encourage you to speak in person with your priest. Perhaps there are dispensations a bishop may be able to give (one article somewhat lauded to that. I believe it was link #3 above. Check comments after article as well for more info)

I pray that regardless of where your search leads you that you will find peace. As someone who spent most of her life as an infertile lady, I somewhat understand the feeling about the Church leaving some of us behind in the theology and pastoral care in regards to marriage. I have grown in understanding through deep prayer though. None of us have a “right” to any of the sacraments. Desire alone is not enough to award them to us.
 
Billcreasy2 said:
The question really addresses such older couples who desire intimacy and companionship with someone they love and who oftentimes are physically unable to have intercourse
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I dont see the problem?
I agree with you that it is not good for some men to be alone. That can be solved without using the vehicle of marriage.

If they are not provably impotent they may marry and will be given the benefit of the doubt.

If they cannot have sex there is no intrinsic sin in cohabiting. If affinity or legal rights are also desired get a civil union or use other legal vehicles.
 
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