Married and going without intercourse

[AdamP88]

Again, my advice is for the OP to be prepared that perhaps his wife is not willing to subscribe to Catholic teaching any longer with regards to this aspect of their marriage. That is all.

Well that’s not good advice from a Catholic perspective. Perhaps he may have to accept it for the time being. But long term, the aim should be to help her get on board fully with Catholic teaching.

This also means he should be consistent and strong in his own faith.

 

[BlackFriar]

Please get real and read the Catechism and standard MT on what a certain conscience consists in.

 

[1ke]

If that is what your conscience is telling you with certainty then you must follow it for it is, for you, the voice of God and must be followed (even if you are objectively mistaken).

Um no. We are required to FORM our conscience. We are not free to just say “this is what my conscience tells me”. No, we are accountable to a well-formed conscience, one formed by the teaching of the Church.

 

[BlackFriar]

It is clear we must follow a certain conscience.
Whether it is well formed or not is a separate issue.
Whether it is culpably less than well formed or just normally less than well formed is another issue yet again.
A well formed conscience is the work of a lifetime.

Please look up the usual MT manuals.

 

[BlackFriar]

Well that’s not good advice from a Catholic perspective. Perhaps he may have to accept it for the time being. But long term, the aim should be to help her get on board fully with Catholic teaching.

Please quote your specific issue that is not Catholic. I have seen nothing beyond the pail myself .

 

[1ke]

In his first post, The OP says, Regarding contraception:

but I know this is wrong

 

[BlackFriar]

In his first post, The OP says, Regarding contraception:

but I know this is wrong

???
@AdamP88 said of @qwertygirl "Well that’s not good advice from a Catholic perspective. "

Why don’t we wait for @AdamP88 to advise…

 

[AdamP88]

Please quote your specific issue that is not Catholic. I have seen nothing beyond the pail myself

Advising someone that it’s ok to just accept the decision by the wife to contracept and decide that there’ll be no more kids is not exactly the best advice in this situation.

Maybe that’d be acceptable if they were not catholic. But that decision ought to be made by both spouses, with regard to the fact that they are required to be open to life as much as possible.

Unfortunately many catholics these days seem to be influenced by secular attitudes on this area.

 

[AdamP88]

I already said I think he should accept it for the moment but also try to influence her toward the Catholic way of thinking. Also convince her of the merits of NFP.

And go to marriage counselling, if only to get closer to being on the same page.

 

[AdamP88]

A well formed conscience is the work of a lifetime.

Actually, it’s only the work of being familiar with Catholic teaching and the reasons for it.

The husband here knows contraception is wrong. He should be trying to gradually convince his convert wife, who may not have known all the details of this teaching, to accept it.

I can imagine the husband feels a little upset about this. You would generally think that if you married a convert they would be more accepting of all Catholic teaching than the average Catholic.
I also married a convert and have several convert friends and that seems to be the case.

 

[BlackFriar]

BlackFriar:

A well formed conscience is the work of a lifetime.

Actually, it’s only the work of being familiar with Catholic teaching and the reasons for it.

Its clear you have never taken a substantial Moral Theology 101 paper then.
Also, “A well formed conscience is the work of a lifetime” is simply a quote from the CCC.

 

[AdamP88]

Well I guess it depends on the person. But forming your conscience in one particular area such as sexual morality, ought not take a lifetime. The OP’s conscience, for example is formed enough to tell him the right and wrong of this situation. It doesn’t need any other formation in that regard.

The only nuance here is whether he should have sex with his wife if she is contracepting.

 

[BlackFriar]

BlackFriar:

Please quote your specific issue that is not Catholic. I have seen nothing beyond the pail myself

Advising someone that it’s ok to just accept the decision by the wife to contracept and decide that there’ll be no more kids is not exactly the best advice in this situation.

These quotes from @QWERTYGRIL don’t really match your view of her position:

I believe your wife can take care of the contraception and you won’t be sinning if you have sex with her as long as you let her know you object to the contraceptive use. Check with a priest though.

Again, my advice is for the OP to be prepared that perhaps his wife is not willing to subscribe to Catholic teaching any longer with regards to this aspect of their marriage.

let’s not say his wife is the one whose issue roots need to be “gotten to”. Sounds like they are already fully exposed.

You don’t force other people to do things with their bodies because it is what you want. To suggest his wife is the one with the issue, only encourages him to view this situation only from where he sits.

He can still have marital relations with his wife while she is on contraception as long as he voices his objection to it.

But perhaps you are objecting to this line?:

When my husband and I got married we agreed to two. Once I had one, I was done.

We do not know the reason for the poster reversing her initial commitment to her husband.
Its really none of our business.

 

[AdamP88]

But perhaps you are objecting to this line?:

I’m objecting to her general attitude that implicitly promotes contraception to a catholic couple and a secular view of marriage than many on these forums would not share.

We do not know the reason for the poster reversing her initial commitment to her husband.

Its really none of our business.

Yeah, sure…but it doesn’t really matter. It’s not particularly in the spirit of Catholic marriage to make decisions in this way.

Also, the majority of the private matters posted on this forum are non of our business, yet we still read and comment. Is that not the point of an internet forum?

 

[BlackFriar]

I’m objecting to her general attitude that implicitly promotes contraception to a catholic couple and a secular view of marriage than many on these forums would not share.

So quote something. I don’t see it.
I believe you are operating from an unjustified distortion.
It is a not uncommon issue in mixed marriages especially.
She is correct that the Catholic partner need not abstain but may cooperate in the contraceptive acts of a partner under certain conditions.

She is not promoting contraception but rather, given the reality that one partner declines to have any more children (for unknown reasons), rightly observing what the ethical options then are. She is also correct in her observations re the futility of forcing a partner who has come to that point in their life.

 

[hoping4more]

Sorry OP for the lengthy theological discussion here.

Practically speaking the only way to remedy your situation for the immediate future is your wife get a copper IUD (these can be abortificients in certain cases, be sure that is not the case). She then would have to initiate, every time, which could mean a lot of waiting for things to happen for you. In addition you should also encourage her to practice NFP in addition to whatever form of contraception she uses, and you insist on only having sex during the infertile periods. The idea is that you do not gain additional sex(a benefit) from the contraception.

If you want to use a more accurate or advanced method look into Creighton or Marquette NFP.

EDIT Just to be absolutely clear I am not saying you should do the above but that is what the resolution would look like with a contracepting wife.

 

[pensmama87]

Practically speaking the only way to remedy your situation for the immediate future is your wife get a copper IUD (these can be abortificients in certain cases, be sure that is not the case)

My understanding is that the copper IUD only works as an abortifacent - it does not suppress ovulation the way hormonal contraception does. That would seem to make the situation much worse than it already is.

I don’t think the OP is going to be very convincing if he insists that she do all the work to go along with what only he thinks is a problem (and in practice has only observed sometimes). If he wants to get his wife on board, he needs to practice mortification of his own senses and be willing to make sacrifices. Likely that will include more than just in the bedroom - like I said above, four kids is a heckuva lot of work!

 

[hoping4more]

In almost all cases it removes the tails of sperm so they cannot move; contraception not abortificient. I have heard, though not saying specifically, that it can be an abortificient; I think it is in the first couple of days use though we are getting into the medical advice area where the great Ban Hammer of the Mods comes out so I won’t say anymore.

IUDs are contraceptives, not abortifacients: a comment on research and belief - PubMed

No studies show that IUDs destroy developing embryos at rates higher than those found in women who are not using contraceptives. Studies of early pregnancy factors have not shown statistically significant differences in transient levels of hCG between IUD and control groups, a sign of early...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Well he can say “NFP, abstain, or you can contracept though I won’t be involved in that aspect.” That is the short of his answer to her. This will still be hard on him. He can greatly contribute to the NFP aspect (even while she contracepts) by handling most of the charting, purchasing tests, researching, etc.

 

[pensmama87]

He can greatly contribute to the NFP aspect (even while she contracepts) by handling most of the charting, purchasing tests, researching, etc

I think this is a good idea. I tend to cringe at the idea that “the wife should do NFP,” because the couple should do it together. Framing it in these terms (and following through) will probably go over a lot better than “here’s another burden for you.”

In terms of research, I’d suggest secular sources (upthread Taking Charge of Your Fertility was mentioned.) The methods are often called fertility awareness or FAM, rather than NFP, but they’re the same (just with FAM there’s usually a suggestion to use barrier methods during the fertile times only.)

 

[TheLittleLady]

the fact that they are required to be open to life as much as possible.

You are going beyond the teachings of the Church.

Married couples promise to lovingly accept children from God. At it’s bare minimum this says “If we get pregnant, we won’t abort”. Then we are to raise those children in the Faith, educate them about the Faith, get them Sacramentalized, etc.

The other requirement is that each marital act be ordered toward procreation.

We are not required to have as many kids as humanly possible. There is no prohibition against deciding that we will try to avoid pregnancy when there are just reasons (and just reasons is a very broad term).

While in a perfect world no one would struggle for money or time or health, mothers would have a support system and help so they can simply have many babies, but, God knows we do not live in a perfect world. He provided us signs that can be used to determine fertility, He gave us minds to interpret those signs.