Married Clergy and Papal Authority

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I came across a post in the Traditional Catholicism forum that piqued my interest. Here is the relevant part.
Today, the Pope could change the rule and never allow a married man to be ordained in the eastern rites or he could allow married men to be ordained in the western one
I understand that the discipline of clerical celibacy in the Latin Church could be changed but does the Pope have the authority to change it in the other local Churches?

Yours in Christ
Joe
 
I came across a post in the Traditional Catholicism forum that piqued my interest. Here is the relevant part.

I understand that the discipline of clerical celibacy in the Latin Church could be changed but does the Pope have the authority to change it in the other local Churches?

Yours in Christ
Joe
That is the debate that me and mardukm have been having on several threads. mardukm claims that Rome doesn’t claim the authority to mess with the tradition of the eastern Churches. It appears to me though that is exactly what Rome is claiming. Rome claims absolute power. The bishop of Rome can do whatever he pleases.
 
Rome has no authority to change our traditions as has been upheld by the Second Vatican Council.
 
Rome has no authority to change our traditions as has been upheld by the Second Vatican Council.
Forgive my ignorance but couldn’t the Pope override that if he wanted to?

Yours in Christ
Joe
 
Rome has no authority to change our traditions as has been upheld by the Second Vatican Council.
There is an old heresy called Conciliarism that holds a Council superior to the Pope. It was condemned by the Fifth Lateran Council. The Pope is the final authority in the Catholic Church.
 
Current Popes (supposedly) can’t contradict previous Popes.
 
wouldn’t the Pope only get involved if the bishops of that particular Church couldn’t agree on the issue and asked him to settle it?
 
There is an old heresy called Conciliarism that holds a Council superior to the Pope. It was condemned by the Fifth Lateran Council. The Pope is the final authority in the Catholic Church.
The Pope just let ecumenical councils be called by the emperor so all those Bishops could feel like they mattered. That was sweet of him. :rolleyes:
 
Current Popes (supposedly) can’t contradict previous Popes.
…and if they were to that would just mean the statement of whatever previous Pope couldn’t have been an exercise of his infallibility. I’ll buy that! 😃
 
Papal infallibility has only been promulgated twice in history, so I am unsure if that post was sarcastic or not.
 
There is an old heresy called Conciliarism that holds a Council superior to the Pope. It was condemned by the Fifth Lateran Council. The Pope is the final authority in the Catholic Church.
So if a council that is held to be Ecumenical by a Pope and his subsequent successors, then if a later Pope over rules everything in it, the earlier Popes must have been teaching error :rolleyes:. Obviously then the Latin view of Papal infallibility really just means that the CURRENT reigning Pope is infallible I guess. 🤷
 
I can only speak of the Ukrainian Catholic experience. I believe the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church is an Autonomous Church (“Ecclesia sui iuris” according to Canon Law) in our own right, with our own proper theology, spirituality, liturgy, and church discipline.

From the official website of the Ukrainian Catholic Church in Ukraine on its history:

Union with Rome in 1596 and East/West Divisions in Ukraine Itself

The Kyivan Church was challenged by the Protestant Reformation and the renewed Catholicism of that period and was also suffering a serious internal crisis. The Synod decided to pass under the jurisdiction of the see of Rome. The traditional Eastern rite of the Kyivan Church was preserved and its ethnic, cultural and ecclesial existence was guaranteed. This was confirmed at the Council of Brest in 1596, which is the beginning of the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church as an institution.

ugcc.org.ua/31.0.html?&L=2

On the Union of Brest, I will confess I have not read this book yet but it appears to be the one to read with respect to Church History and the Papacy:
books.google.ca/books?id=9FN9gT7CQw4C&pg=PA17&dq=Borys+Gudziak#v=onepage&q=Borys%20Gudziak&f=false

I have Ihor Sevcenko’s book on Between East and West kicking around somewhere and Jaroslav Pelikan’s thoughts on the “Church between East and West” which he wrote as an introduction on a study of the late Ukrainian Catholic Metropolitan Sheptytsky which go into more detail as well.

I believe the common layperson’s (i.e. my) belief is that the Papacy agreed long ago in the Union to respect the Ukrainian Church’s right to its own ecclesial discipline (i.e. marriage) but I am no Canon lawyer or expert so I cannot speak to how matters work out exactly in the diaspora though a lot of the bright guys and gals around here certainly can.🙂
 
I can only speak of the Ukrainian Catholic experience. I believe the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church is an Autonomous Church (“Ecclesia sui iuris” according to Canon Law) in our own right, with our own proper theology, spirituality, liturgy, and church discipline.
There is a distinction between autonomy and autocephaly. I think that this is where one needs to look for an answer to the OP.
I believe the common layperson’s (i.e. my) belief is that the Papacy agreed long ago in the Union to respect the Ukrainian Church’s right to its own ecclesial discipline (i.e. marriage) but I am no Canon lawyer or expert so I cannot speak to how matters work out exactly in the diaspora though a lot of the bright guys and gals around here certainly can.🙂
I think it could be argued (successfully) by UltraMontanists that this “agreement to respect” amounts to a deputization, or a grant. It would not be considered by most observers to be a recognition on the part of the Pope of that day an inalienable right the Orthodox bishops brought with them which a successor Pope has no power to overrule.

In other words, I think that according to Latin church (and the Papal curia) understanding the UGCC has these rights because the Pope allows them to keep and hold these rights.
 
In other words, I think that according to Latin church (and the Papal curia) understanding the UGCC has these rights because the Pope allows them to keep and hold these rights.
As the Latin Church and Curia are headed by the Patriarch of Rome, I have a feeling that this is (at least) not the view of the Latin Church officially considering this quote from a certain former cardinal 😉
“In other words, Rome must not require more from the East with respect to the doctrine of primacy than had been formulated and was lived in the first millennium.” -Cardinal Ratzinger
 
As the Latin Church and Curia are headed by the Patriarch of Rome, I have a feeling that this is (at least) not the view of the Latin Church officially considering this quote from a certain former cardinal 😉
One would like to think so.

However that was his opinion as a theologian, before he was elevated. He has not done anything formally (at least as of this writing) to change the position of the church and unless he does his successors can ignore his opinion, or “clarify” it.

Also, the good Cardinal was not very specific as to just what he feels “had been formulated and was lived in the first millennium”. It is sort of cryptic, like a political promise 😃 . Most traditionalist Latin Catholics would disagree with the rest of us on this subject, and so the opinion does not carry as much weight as one would hope.
 
I understand that the discipline of clerical celibacy in the Latin Church could be changed but does the Pope have the authority to change it in the other local Churches?

Yours in Christ
Joe
Yes, the Pope in his wisdom may intervene for the good of the whole church if he is convinced it is necessary.

He has Universal Ordinary Jurisdiction.

The pope’s immediate and ordinary jurisdiction
In the Constitution “Pastor Aeternus”, cap. 3, the pope is declared to possess ordinary, immediate, and episcopal jurisdiction over all the faithful:

We teach, moreover, and declare that, by the disposition of God, the Roman Church possesses supreme ordinary authority over all Churches, and that the jurisdiction of the Roman Pontiff, which is true episcopal jurisdiction is immediate in its character (Enchir., n. 1827).

It is further added that this authority extends to all alike, both pastors and faithful, whether singly or collectively. An ordinary jurisdiction is one which is exercised by the holder, not by reason of any delegation, but in virtue of the office which he himself holds. All who acknowledge in the pope any primacy of jurisdiction acknowledge that jurisdiction to be ordinary.

Jurisdictional rights and prerogatives of the pope
In virtue of his office as supreme teacher and ruler of the faithful, the chief control of every department of the Church’s life belongs to the pope. In this section the rights and duties which thus fall to his lot will be briefly enumerated. It will appear that, in regard to a considerable number of points, not merely the supreme control, but the whole exercise of power is reserved to the Holy See, and is only granted to others by express delegation. This system of reservation is possible, since the pope is the universal source of all ecclesiastical jurisdiction. Hence it rests with him to determine in what measure he will confer jurisdiction on bishops and other prelates.

(1) As the supreme teacher of the Church, whose it is to prescribe what is to be believed by all the faithful, and to take measures for the preservation and the propagation of the faith, the following are the rights which pertain to the pope:
  • it is his to set forth creeds, and to determine when and by whom an explicit profession of faith shall be made (cf. Council of Trent, Sess. 24, cc. 1 and 12);
  • it is his to prescribe and to command books for the religious instruction of the faithful; thus, for example, Clement XIII has recommended the Roman Catechism to all the bishops.
  • The pope alone can establish a university, possessing the status and privileges of a canonically erected Catholic university;
  • to him also belongs the direction of Catholic missions throughout the world; this charge is fulfilled through the Congregation of the Propaganda.
  • It is his to prohibit the reading of such books as are injurious to faith or morals, and to determine the conditions on which certain classes of books may be issued by Catholics;
  • his is the condemnation of given propositions as being either heretical or deserving of some minor degree of censure, and lastly
  • he has the right to interpret authentically the natural law. Thus, it is his to say what is lawful or unlawful in regard to social and family life, in regard to the practice of usury, etc.
(2) With the pope’s office of supreme teacher are closely connected his rights in regard to the worship of God: for it is the law of prayer that fixes the law of belief. In this sphere very much has been reserved to the sole regulation of the Holy See. Thus
  • the pope alone can prescribe the liturgical services employed in the Church. If a doubt should occur in regard to the ceremonial of the liturgy, a bishop may not settle the point on his own authority, but must have recourse to Rome. The Holy See likewise prescribes rules in regard to the devotions used by the faithful, and in this way checks the growth of what is novel and unauthorized.
  • At the present day the institution and abrogation of festivals which was till a comparatively recent time free to all bishops as regards their own dioceses, is reserved to Rome.
  • The solemn canonization of a saint is proper to the pope. Indeed it is commonly held that this is an exercise of the papal infallibility. Beatification and every permission for the public veneration of any of the servants of God is likewise reserved to his decision.
  • He alone gives to anyone the privilege of a private chapel where Mass may be said.
  • He dispenses the treasury of the Church, and the grant of plenary indulgences is reserved to him. While he has no authority in regard to the substantial rites of the sacraments, and is bound to preserve them as they were given to the Church by Christ and His Apostles, certain powers in their regard belong to him;
  • he can give to simple priests the power to confirm, and to bless the oil of the sick and the oil of catechumens, and
  • he can establish diriment and impedient impediments to matrimony.
{continued below}
 
{continued from above}

(3) The legislative power of the pope carries with it the following rights:
  • he can legislate for the whole Church, with or without the assistance of a general council;
  • if he legislates with the aid of a council it is his to convoke it, to preside, to direct its deliberations, to confirm its acts.
  • He has full authority to interpret, alter, and abrogate both his own laws and those established by his predecessors. He has the same plenitude of power as they enjoyed, and stands in the same relation to their laws as to those which he himself has decreed;
  • he can dispense individuals from the obligation of all purely ecclesiastical laws, and can grant privileges and exemptions in their regard.
  • In this connection may be mentioned his power to dispense from vows where the greater glory of God renders it desirable. Considerable powers of dispensation are granted to bishops, and, in a restricted measure, also to priests; but there are some vows reserved altogether to the Holy See.
(4) In virtue of his supreme judicial authority
  • causae majores are reserved to him. By this term are signified cases dealing with matters of great moment, or those in which personages of eminent dignity are concerned.
  • His appellate jurisdiction has been discussed in the previous section. It should, however, be noted
  • that the pope has full right, should he see fit, to deal even with causae minores in the first instance, and not merely by reason of an appeal (Trent, Sess. XXIV; cap. 20). In what concerns punishment,
  • he can inflict censures either by judicial sentence or by general laws which operate without need of such sentence.
  • He further reserves certain cases to his own tribunal. All cases of heresy come before the Congregation of the Inquisition. A similar reservation covers the cases in which a bishop or a reigning prince is the accused party.
(5) As the supreme governor of the Church the pope has authority over all appointments to its public offices. Thus
  • it is his to nominate to bishoprics, or, where the nomination has been conceded to others, to give confirmation. Further, he alone can translate bishops from one see to another, can accept their resignation, and can, where grave cause exists, sentence to deprivation.
  • He can establish dioceses, and can annul a previously existing arrangement in favour of a new one. Similarly, he alone can erect cathedral and collegiate chapters.
  • He can approve new religious orders, and can, if he sees fit, exempt them from the authority of local ordinaries.
  • Since his office of supreme ruler imposes on him the duty of enforcing the canons, it is requisite that he should be kept informed as to the state of the various dioceses. He may obtain this information by legates or by summoning the bishops to Rome. At the present day this jus relationum is exercised through the triennial visit ad limina required of all bishops. This system was introduced by Sixtus V in 1585 (Constitution, “Rom. Pontifex”), and confirmed by Benedict XIV in 1740 (Constitution, “Quod Sancta”) .
  • It is to be further observed that the pope’s office of chief ruler of the Church carries with it jure divino the right to free intercourse with the pastors and the faithful. The placitum regium, by which this intercourse was limited and impeded, was therefore an infringement of a sacred right, and as such was solemnly condemned by the Vatican Council (Constitution, “Pastor Aeternus”, cap. iii). To the pope likewise belongs the supreme administration of the goods of the Church.
  • He alone can, where there is just cause, alienate any considerable quantity of such property. Thus, e.g., Julius III, at the time of the restoration of religion in England under Queen Mary validated the title of those laymen who had acquired Church lands during the spoliations of the previous reigns.
  • The pope has further the right to impose taxes on the clergy and the faithful for ecclesiastical purposes (cf. Trent, Sess. XXI, cap. iv de Ref.).
 
Keep in mind, infalibility does not protect from disciplinary decisions, only matters of faith and morals.

Celibacy is a matter of discipline. And, for what it’s worth, the Lateran V was, IIRC, decrying a council acting over and above the papacy, not not the charism of a council which includes the Pope as Primus.

A pope within the council, by some theories, none of which meet the defined heresy of conciliarism, subjects himself to the will of the council by his participation as a bishop. It is clear that, when a council is held without the pope as primus, the council is subject to the pope, not superior; but far more ancient canons bind a primus to the synodal decisions when he calls a synod to council; that the pope is so bound has not been specifically countered by any council I’ve heard of. (Nor has it been explicitly endorsed.) It does fall short of the Concilliarist heresy.
 
The Pope enforced celibacy on Eastern Catholic clergy in America by papal decree in the late 1920s. If he did it once I’m sure he could do it again if he so deisres. However, this is very unlikely to happen again. In fact, the more probable is the repealing of celibacy enforcement on all clegy from any rite.
 
The Pope enforced celibacy on Eastern Catholic clergy in America by papal decree in the late 1920s. If he did it once I’m sure he could do it again if he so deisres. However, this is very unlikely to happen again. In fact, the more probable is the repealing of celibacy enforcement on all clegy from any rite.
So Eastern Catholic clergy may NOT be married in the US? I thought that at least the UGC’s could…
 
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