Married deacons became priests

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There is a lot of misinformation about the diaconate in this thread.

Please read OTJM’s posts and especially Deacon Jeff’s post #13.

At a minimum, the National Directory for the Formation, Ministry and Life of the Permanent Deacons in the United States is a must-read before anyone presumes to teach others about who and what the diaconate is.

I suggest that some of you need to slow down and read The Emerging Diaconate: Servant Leaders in a Servant Church by William T. Ditewig.

books.google.com/books/content?id=MSpOXG-t7jgC&printsec=frontcover&img=1&zoom=1&edge=curl&imgtk=AFLRE71PsfTml6ZhF1cOxvKDq7rfFSPUpUDXHM0U5xMAsFVGQqVYs31iwJxn3Zt_tbcTGwWirrHhPacXSa-EXNiaL5sD3I1h53nMngkcdXWApnUAprivb65PYyex8gUE9JNvPo6WvpgZ

-Tim-
 
I don’t know that there is anything in particular that would indicate that it would cause permanent damage.

People who are led to the permanent diaconate by and large appear to be lead to service to the Church in the formal means of being ordained a deacon.

Should we ever get to the point of ordaining married men to the priesthood, it should come as no surprise if some felt that there was a call to the priesthood. there is no reason to presume that it would be a large number, and even less reason to presume that it would result in that many ordinations, as the spouse has some, and it would appear significant, say in the matter.

It is a bit akin to saying that ordaining married men to the priesthood would cause long term damage to the celibate priesthood. 2000 years of history to the contrary, there is no reason to make such a presumption.
If you’re saying there’s no reason to belief that ordaining married men to the priesthood would damage the celibate priesthood, all the data in the history of the world suggests otherwise.

The Anglicans have a married priesthood. Celibate Anglican priests are very rare.

The Orthodox allow married priests (but have celibate bishops). There are more married priests than celibate priests, and the number of married Orthodox priests will inevitability rise.

Celibacy is an intense discipline to hold. Jesus even says that one does not choose it, but one is called to it. It is held in the Catholic Church that married life is the common vocation, and celibacy is the exception. This isn’t a discipline you can realistically expect to flourish in any considerable number from the bottom up. It has to come from the top down to keep it alive.
 
If you’re saying there’s no reason to belief that ordaining married men to the priesthood would damage the celibate priesthood, all the data in the history of the world suggests otherwise.

The Anglicans have a married priesthood. Celibate Anglican priests are very rare.

The Orthodox allow married priests (but have celibate bishops). There are more married priests than celibate priests, and the number of married Orthodox priests will inevitability rise.

Celibacy is an intense discipline to hold. Jesus even says that one does not choose it, but one is called to it. It is held in the Catholic Church that married life is the common vocation, and celibacy is the exception. This isn’t a discipline you can realistically expect to flourish in any considerable number from the bottom up. It has to come from the top down to keep it alive.
ah, the old fear that celibacy will fall apart…
the Catholic Church has had a married clergy for 2000 years, and celibacy did not fall apart.

The Roman rite has had celibacy only from some time between about 1000 and 1215, with 1215 seemingly the date from which celibacy was enforced effectively, or at least the point where the Church was making progress in enforcing it.

Celibacy and priesthood are two separate and distinct callings. and lest you challenge that, there are numerous men who choose a professed life of celibacy - we call them Brothers. Not to mention the women who are professed celibate, generally grouped in sisters and nuns, although there are professed celibates who are not members of a community.

Ordaining married men will not impact those groups - last I checked, women were not being ordained, and those men who become Brothers are not seeking to be ordained.

Anglicans also have a head of state as head of their religion, so let’s not go there as if that was some sort of indicator of much of anything; they also have professed religious. Neither are particularly relevant to the discussion except as imitators (with no disrespect to them) of the Church.

The Eastern rites in union with Rome have not fallen apart in 2000 years. they manage to have both a married and an unmarried clergy. Whether there are more of one or the other is not an indicator of what the Church should find, if it were to allow married men to be ordained.

It is always a possibility that the Church, if ordaining married men, would find that it had significantly more applicants who were married than those who would choose celibacy; but unless and until we get to that point, it is pure and unadulterated speculation without any merit in reality.

And there is one factor which you appear to not be acquainted with, and that is, that if a married man feels called to the priesthood, the admission process is likely to be very similar, if not identical to, the process of being admitted to the married diaconate. And that is, the wife is going to have a major say in the matter. The wife is not completely on board? Guess what: NEXT!

and even if the wife is completely on board, the bottom line is that the Church makes the final decision as to whether or not a man is called to ordination; having had a second cousin in class with me in college seminary, I found out he was invited, about the time he would have been ordained a deacon, to find something else. I also have a first cousin of my dad who went through the same seminary, to about the same point, where he was invited to do something else. One does not hear much of that, but it is a reality, and the same could apply to a married man seeking ordination.

It is highly unlikely that there will be a veritable flood of applicants, should the Church change it’s discipline. And it is highly likely on the whole, that should there be a change, most will be vetted closely (I say most because of variations in the multitude of dioceses).

I am also old enough to remember the flood outward, of priests who requested and receive laicization (I have a family member among that group), which speaks in part of whether or not they were gifted with the vocation to celibacy, or only agreed, albeit grudgingly, because they felt a strong calling to the priesthood - which is a different vocation.

Celibacy has always survived in the Church; it survived in the Roman rite when there were married priests; and it ahs survived in the Eastern rites to this day. Allowing ordinations of married individuals will not tear the Church apart; it will not cause a loss of celibacy as a vocation separate and distinct from the priesthood, and it will not cause a loss of celibate clergy. There may be fewer, percentage wise if for no other reason than that if there is one, worlds wide, there is less than 100% celibate clergy. But it will also allow people who have the distinct calling to both to answer those calls, and those who have a calling to one but not both to also answer that call.

And frankly, having been in the seminary at one point and having known literally dozens and dozens of priests, I would be very comfortable knowing that if one was ordained and celibate, that he was called to both. I have seen the results of otherwise too many times.
 
The discipline of priestly celibacy could very well be changed.

But now would not be the time to do it; the reason being, that the major drive to that is coming from a world tainted by the sexual revolution, such that people just feel uncomfortable with anybody who would give up sexual happiness.

That is not, per se, a reason to change Church policy. Indeed, given that the Church is salt and light, it arguably is a reason not to.

ICXC NIKA.
 
The discipline of priestly celibacy could very well be changed.

But now would not be the time to do it; the reason being, that the major drive to that is coming from a world tainted by the sexual revolution, such that people just feel uncomfortable with anybody who would give up sexual happiness.

That is not, per se, a reason to change Church policy. Indeed, given that the Church is salt and light, it arguably is a reason not to.

ICXC NIKA.
all of us are merely speculating.

However, I could say just the exact opposite to your comment, to wit: with the sexual revolution, the laity need more and more examples of strong and vibrant marriages. It was not that long ago that the Church decided to ordain married deacons, and they, too can and are providing witness in the maelstrom of secular society - one that too easily impinges on those in the pews.

And any decision to make a change is not going to make much of an overall impact, such as a sudden weighting to married clergy as opposed to celibate clergy; to begin with, it takes 4 years or more in Theology, and if a candidate does not have an undergraduate degree in Philosophy, add at least two more years to that.

And while my archdiocese ordained 8 to the priesthood recently, that was a high water mark for some period of time. Given that the vast majority of priests are celibate now (with the exceptions of the ministers converting and being ordained) that ratio is highly unlikely to change for what 30, 40 or more years? According to CARA, in 2014 there were 26,265 diocesan priests, and 494 ordinations - or a 1.88% of the total being ordained that year. Even assuming we receive more ordinations (and some seminaries are at or beyond capacity) there just is not going to be any earth shaking changes in the ration of celibates to married.

Which is not to say that married priests witness has little or no value; only that the value would be very local.

And which generation is most in need of witness of one man, one woman for life? The peers of those who might step forward. I think you ignore the impact of witness.
 
I don’t disagree in the least; I am a bit lazy in typing out everything explicitly.👍
 
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