Married (ex-Catholic) Protestants obligations to God and their children.

[jasonb82abn]

Jmj

I am curious about Protestants, who (before “leaving the Church”) were married (as a Sacrament) in the Catholic Church. I know a couple, who have young-adult children, who are in this situation and I am concerned about them. They were born and raised in the Church, fell in love, married each other (in the Church), but eventually turned away from their faith to embrace Protestantism… and eventually (and more specifically)… the Baptist movement (they spent some time “church shopping” before becoming Baptists.)

Did this husband and wife not make a promise, to God, that they would (to the best of their ability) raise their children in the Catholic faith? And what of their argument that they changed their minds about how their viewed “organized religion” and the Catholic Church – does this change of heart/mind nullify their commitment to God for their children?

I am reminded of Martin Luther – who once made a Sacred Vow of celibacy… then, later in life… changed his mind about his feelings and married. (Forgive me if I am inaccurate about Luther’s circumstances… I have not studied the life of Martin Luther in depth – yet.) But, it seems similar - casting aside promises we make… because they no longer suit us, and offering explanations why we lack integrity. Isn’t that just… making up excuses? “Sorry professor… my dog ate my homework!”

In any case… I am curious about the status of former Catholics in general… but in particular, how they view themselves when it comes to raising their children as anti-Catholic? Seeing how the children of this couple treat and view Catholicism is very sad, particularly since their extended families are Catholic. Additionally, this couple… choosing to raise their children as “Baptists” – denied their children the Baptism that they were not. Now, their children (young adults), though professing to be Christians… have not been, have no plans to, and see no need to actually be Baptized… as it is only a symbol – something they can do or maybe “should” do… but don’t have to if they don’t feel comfortable with it.

Please, any Protestants in similar situations… or Protestants who might know of someone in a similar situation… I would appreciate your thoughts and feelings on this question: “So… what about former Catholics and their promise to God for the sake of their children?”

May the Lord be with you!

Jason

 

[MariaG]

I can’t speak for others, but only for myself.

I was married in the Catholic Church even when I went to the local bishop and said, “I am baptized Catholic, my fiancee isn’t. My parents stopped going to church when I was 4, briefly went again when I was 15. At that time, after a few months my favorite priest turned out to be a homosexual predator. I stopped going. I am not currently attending nor do I currently have plans to attend. But for some reason I don’t think I will feel married unless it is by a priest.”

He asked me if I would raise the kids Catholic and said of course!

A few years later, God started working on my heart. I responded but not to the Catholic Church, but a fundamental church.

But when my kids got to be about 6 and 9, I started to hear God reminding me of my promise.

Now kids ages 16, 12 and 4 all being faithfully raised in the Catholic Church.

My take is that God will remind them of their promise. Hopefully, they will respond to His call.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[MichaelLewis]

jasonb82abn:

Jmj

I am curious about Protestants, who (before “leaving the Church”) were married (as a Sacrament) in the Catholic Church. I know a couple, who have young-adult children, who are in this situation and I am concerned about them. They were born and raised in the Church, fell in love, married each other (in the Church), but eventually turned away from their faith to embrace Protestantism… and eventually (and more specifically)… the Baptist movement (they spent some time “church shopping” before becoming Baptists.)

Did this husband and wife not make a promise, to God, that they would (to the best of their ability) raise their children in the Catholic faith? And what of their argument that they changed their minds about how their viewed “organized religion” and the Catholic Church – does this change of heart/mind nullify their commitment to God for their children?

I am reminded of Martin Luther – who once made a Sacred Vow of celibacy… then, later in life… changed his mind about his feelings and married. (Forgive me if I am inaccurate about Luther’s circumstances… I have not studied the life of Martin Luther in depth – yet.) But, it seems similar - casting aside promises we make… because they no longer suit us, and offering explanations why we lack integrity. Isn’t that just… making up excuses? “Sorry professor… my dog ate my homework!”

In any case… I am curious about the status of former Catholics in general… but in particular, how they view themselves when it comes to raising their children as anti-Catholic? Seeing how the children of this couple treat and view Catholicism is very sad, particularly since their extended families are Catholic. Additionally, this couple… choosing to raise their children as “Baptists” – denied their children the Baptism that they were not. Now, their children (young adults), though professing to be Christians… have not been, have no plans to, and see no need to actually be Baptized… as it is only a symbol – something they can do or maybe “should” do… but don’t have to if they don’t feel comfortable with it.

Please, any Protestants in similar situations… or Protestants who might know of someone in a similar situation… I would appreciate your thoughts and feelings on this question: “So… what about former Catholics and their promise to God for the sake of their children?”

May the Lord be with you!

Jason

Suppose a Muslim couple were to make a promise to God to faithfully raise their children as Muslims. Suppose they were to then convert to Catholicism. Would they still be so obligated?

It doesn’t seem that they would, for they now believe that God (who they made their promise to) does not endorse their former religion. Presumably, (given what they now believe) God never had any intention of holding them to that promise, as it was based upon misinformation as to His wishes. They would be violating the will of God if they did keep their promise.

Promises are always made in a context; we assume that some set of facts hold. Suppose I promise you to take your child to a hospital. I drive her there, but it turns out that the building is on fire. Shall I take her in anyway, so as to keep my promise? Certainly not; the point of the promise was the child’s welfare and I no longer believe that her entering the hospital will serve her welfare.

Given that the couple in question doesn’t believe that the Catholic Church is God’s church any longer, it would actually be wrong for them to raise their children as Catholics. In so doing they would (from their perspective) be denying them religious truth and feeding them lies instead. Surely they should be able to reason that God doesn’t want them to do that!

Michael

 

[jasonb82abn]

Jmj

Michael,

You made an excellent point about the nature, conditions, or context of any “promise.” However, I think that maybe some additional information about the couple I wrote about would be appropriate. I’ll first try to explain a little better by asking another question (not off the subject though.)

If you make a promise to God, for the sake of another (your own children in this case) – are you not obligated to consider the side of Who you made the promise to?

In the case of this couple, they left the Church… and now profess that, as Catholics, they believed in things that are flatly against the teachings of the Catholic Church (worshipping Mary and the Saints, worshipping the Pope, etc.) Since they obviously lack an understanding of Catholicism now, isn’t it reasonable to assume that they lacked an understanding when they left the Church? And, after time had passed (since they made their vows), instead of forgetting about or making excuses to not live up to the promise(s) they made… shouldn’t they have at least tried to understand the nature of the promise(s)?

If you find yourself engaged in an activity you are not comfortable with or are suddenly questioning the morality of… shouldn’t you look back and examine the agreement(s) that got you there? If you are a contractor (as in a contracted employee) that disagrees with something you are to do for the day on your “outline of daily duties”… would you angrily confront your supervisor and say – “I never agreed to that!” and quit – without being sure!? Or would take another look at your contract? And try to see if it was covered… try to see if your objections were valid?

Now, apply that idea to this… and think how much more seriously we should take a commitment made to God! We might be able to go to court and weasel our way out of honoring our promises here on earth… but when our eternal SOULS are on the line, I would think we would stop trying to be so legalistic… stop looking for loopholes… and take the time to really consider what the Holy Spirit is saying to us. I believe they may have not heard the Church out – because they had already formed their opinions and made their excuses (speculation I know… but they have demonstrated hateful feelings towards Catholicism and a clear misunderstanding of Church teachings. I think it is reasonable to assume that they didn’t try to learn or understand their faith before they jumped ship.)

Also, what about the Baptism of their children? I know that they are both upset that their children – now in their twenties – have chosen not to be Baptized. Any thoughts on this?

May the Lord be with you!

Jason

 

[jasonb82abn]

Jmj

Maria,

Thank you for sharing your feelings and personal story. I will try to be hopeful and continue to pray - that the Holy Spirit will guide these people (who are very dear to me) and their children as He did you. Thank you very much.

May the Lord be with you!

Jason

 

[MariaG]

jasonb82abn:

Jmj

Maria,

Thank you for sharing your feelings and personal story. I will try to be hopeful and continue to pray - that the Holy Spirit will guide these people (who are very dear to me) and their children as He did you. Thank you very much.

May the Lord be with you!

Jason

You’re Welcome!

Prayer is very powerful. I feel as if there is a Saint(s?) who wants to join in prayer with you for this family. I do not know which saint would best apply, but I know when I choose my confirmation saint (at age 36), it wasn’t so much as choosing one but finding a friend who had been praying for me all along.

I think this family also has a Saint(s?) who want you to ask him to add your prayer together for the glory of God.

If you had time, do a little research asking the Holy Spirit to guide you and see if you “find” a Saint who seems as if you already know. It can help ease your burden.

Also, what about the Baptism of their children? I know that they are both upset that their children – now in their twenties – have chosen not to be Baptized. Any thoughts on this?

Their children haven’t chosen to be baptized because they are not following a Godly life, or they go to church but just haven’t chosen to do so?

I ask because most baptists I know do not see baptism as a sacrament but as a public declaration, not even a necessary one depending on which group you talk to. So do your friends realize this? Are they maybe as ignorant of the Baptist faith as they were of their Catholic faith?

If you can find out the answers to this, maybe you can use it for stepping stones to comparing and contrasting beliefs of Catholic and Baptist. Your friends may be more “Catholic” than they realize.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[MichaelLewis]

Jason Writes:

In the case of this couple, they left the Church… and now profess that, as Catholics, they believed in things that are flatly against the teachings of the Catholic Church (worshipping Mary and the Saints, worshipping the Pope, etc.) Since they obviously lack an understanding of Catholicism now, isn’t it reasonable to assume that they lacked an understanding when they left the Church?

I wonder, do they really believe that Catholics see themselves as doing those things, or do they hold that Catholics do those things despite Catholic beliefs to the contrary?

And, after time had passed (since they made their vows), instead of forgetting about or making excuses to not live up to the promise(s) they made… shouldn’t they have at least tried to understand the nature of the promise(s)?

What makes you think they don’t understand the nature of the promise? Do you think, if they still believed Catholicism to be true, they wouldn’t raise their kids to be Catholic? Or did you mean that they should try to understand the truth of Catholicism?

If you find yourself engaged in an activity you are not comfortable with or are suddenly questioning the morality of… shouldn’t you look back and examine the agreement(s) that got you there? If you are a contractor (as in a contracted employee) that disagrees with something you are to do for the day on your “outline of daily duties”… would you angrily confront your supervisor and say – “I never agreed to that!” and quit – without being sure!? Or would take another look at your contract? And try to see if it was covered… try to see if your objections were valid?

But the question isn’t whether, given the truth of Catholicism, the couple obligated themselves, is it? Its sort of as if the contractor believed that he had contracted to build a vaccination center, only to discover later that it really is going to be an abortion clinic. He doesn’t need to look at his contract again, he knows that he agreed to build a building for his client. He didn’t know that in doing so, he obligated himself to do evil. Of course, the analogy would be closer if we imagine that the person he contracted with didn’t want him to build the structure to begin with. (Cont…)

 

[MichaelLewis]

Jason wrote:

Now, apply that idea to this… and think how much more seriously we should take a commitment made to God! We might be able to go to court and weasel our way out of honoring our promises here on earth… but when our eternal SOULS are on the line, I would think we would stop trying to be so legalistic… stop looking for loopholes… and take the time to really consider what the Holy Spirit is saying to us. I believe they may have not heard the Church out – because they had already formed their opinions and made their excuses (speculation I know… but they have demonstrated hateful feelings towards Catholicism and a clear misunderstanding of Church teachings. I think it is reasonable to assume that they didn’t try to learn or understand their faith before they jumped ship.)

If they don’t believe in Catholicism, they aren’t weaseling out of anything or looking for loopholes. In fact, they are adhering to the spirit, if not the letter of their promise. I can’t speak to whether they are sincere or not, of course. But you shouldn’t rule out the possibility that they understand and despise catholic doctrine, and so they characterize it in way that Catholics wouldn’t approve of. This may be motivated by hatred, or by a belief that Catholics don’t realize what they are really doing (most likely it is a mix of both). It doesn’t sound as if they were being nice about it, but then members of every belief system are unfair to other belief systems. That may be a sin, but it is a tangential issue; it doesn’t mean they haven’t made the best judgment they could about Catholicism.

        Imagine, would you react the same way if a former atheist convert to Catholicism characterized atheists as hating God?  (Some theists seem to think this is true, but the vast majority of atheists would deny it.

Michael

 

[jasonb82abn]

Jmj

You definitely have some good points MichaelLewis, no doubt! I have recently found out a little more about my friends and the circumstances surrounding them leaving the Church. One of them (the mother) is much more uncomfortable about it than the other and has tremendous feelings of guilt, especially since their children seem to have very little time to and seem not to care about developing a spiritual life as adults. (As I mentioned, neither have been Baptized, and apparently one of them is becoming a somewhat “outspoken” agnostic.)

In any case, it is becoming painfully clear that their separation from the Church was not something they are comfortable discussing… and I do not want to help cause arguments that might hurt their marriage (I can definitely see the potential for it.) So, I am becoming more and more reluctant about getting into conversations with them, because we almost always start talking about religion. By their own admission, they do not really care to examine “why we left” because they are comfortable in their current church. I was also told (forgive me, as I’m only quoting from memory) that “God doesn’t care what church you go to, just as long as it’s Bible-based and you get ‘fed’ the word.” I wonder… do you think they really believe this, or do they just “try” to believe it because it makes being spiritually indifferent a little easier? I (obviously) am leaning towards the latter.

I’m sort of at a standstill with them, I would like to help them see some things about the Church that they never took the time to look for themselves… but I don’t want to seriously damage our relationship… and more importantly, theirs. I will continue to pray for them… and I will pray for the conversion of all who are outside the Church.

May the Lord be with you!

Jason

 

[MariaG]

posted by jasonb82abn

“God doesn’t care what church you go to, just as long as it’s Bible-based and you get ‘fed’ the word.” I wonder… do you think they really believe this,

Yes, I really do think they believe this.

But the next time they say that, I would ask where in the Bible it says this. All I can find is places where we are told to be “one”, not a bunch of different denominations. So where in the bible does it say it doesn’t matter? And since different denominations teach different interpretations all “based” on the Bible, which Bible based “truth” is going to feed you?