Married in Protestant Church

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I am still going crazy over convalidation. I am getting contradictory information from parish priests and their assistants. I read this on EWTN website:

"The radical sanation becomes retroactively valid back to the original date of the marriage as the bishop, by decree, accepts the original consent (that is, the original invalid vows become valid).

A simple convalidation does NOT become retroactively valid but involves a new act of consent. For a simple convalidation, the true marriage in the eyes of God and the Church takes place on the day of the convalidation. The original vows do not become valid but the new vows replace them."

I cannot in good conscience ask my wife to state our original marraige was invalid. That is too much to ask especially when she does not believe this. The 4 priests I have spoken with do not seem to understand this. I am on the verge of giving up. . .
The EWTN information seems correct with what I have read.

Your wife will not be asked to state that your original vows were invalid.

From what you say you were both honestly ignorant of the “rules” regarding Catholic marriage, you now know what the rules are and you are going to abide by them.

Imagine for a minute that tomorrow you find out that the person who officiated at your marriage was an impostor, they did not have the credentials to officiate in the eyes of the state. Or the license was not proper because of some clerical error. Would that cause huge heartbreak and be a deal-killer? I doubt it, most happy couples I know would find it to be mildly annoying at worst and set to get things corrected with the state.

Sometimes, when emotions are so high, it is easy to make things more than they are.

Get the convalidation done, and have a wonderful future together!
 
I am still going crazy over convalidation. I am getting contradictory information from parish priests and their assistants.
Hello Agent,

I’ve been lurking here for a long time, but I joined just now so I could tell you that you are not crazy, even though I can see that your situation is still driving you there! I wish I could do more than just lend moral support.

Point 1. You are to be commended for working so diligently to try to find out what the Church requires of you in your current situation. It speaks well of your devotion to our Lord.

Point 2. Catholic church law on marriage is horrifically complicated, and the skills that make someone a good parish priest are not necessarily the same skills to memorize the hundreds of rules and thousands of details involved in this subject.

Point 3. Basically, your understanding of the issues you face is basically correct, and all the misinformation that you’ve received is, well, basically wrong. So, while you are not crazy, you are still caught between a rock and a hard place.

Since April 2006 (see here), your marriage is now considered invalid in the external forum, i.e., according to the Church, due to the lack of the required canonical form. Theologically, the conclusion seems to be that your marriage is therefore also invalid in the internal forum, i.e., according to God, due to the power that God gave to the Church over the sacraments. I find this conclusion difficult to accept because before April 2006, the Church considered you to be in a valid, sacramental marriage that no power on Earth, not even the Pope himself, could dissolve. I guess they underestimated the power of the Vatican bureaucracy to change the rules out from under you.

If you and your wife choose to convalidate your marriage, this would solve your problem as regards the external forum, as the Church would then consider your marriage to be presumed valid per canon 1060 (see here) of the Church’s rules. However, the conventional wisdom of canon lawyers is that unless both you and your wife believe that your present marriage is invalid, you will be unable to properly manifest the required consent per canon 1057 to be able to enter into a valid marriage now. Thus, a convalidation would not seem to be able to affect the internal forum, i.e., the state of your marriage according to God.

A radical sanation (see here) would fix things up in both fora, internal and external. However, obtaining a radical sanation requires the approval of the diocesan bishop, which you don’t seem to be able to obtain given your difficulties with the parish priests.

I wish you the best in resolving your marriage situation!
 
It is beyond me why there are so many rules in the Catholic church. Again it is simple. Follow the example set by Jesus Christ our Lord and He will set you free.

It is not complicated. God is not the author of confusion. Do the words of Jesus seem complicated? Read the words of Christ in the gospel and you will not find complicated “rules” to living life.

I am a born again follower of Jesus Christ our Lord and I am free. What a great feeling it is to not have all those rules and regulations to follow because I truly have a personal relationship with Jesus.

He and He alone will set you free!

Find Jesus and you will find freedom. Marriage is sacred. It is simple; do not be unequally yoked with anyone in business, or personal relationships including marriage. Meaning; do not be unequally yoked with anyone who is not a true born again follower of Jesus Christ.

But now you are married, so stay married and work on your own relationship with Jesus by reading the true word of God, then and only then will your confusion end and life in the spirit will begin for you and you will have unending joy and peace of mind.

May God bless you!
 
It is beyond me why there are so many rules in the Catholic church.
This has nothing to do with the rules of the Catholic Church. It seems that he could go and get his convalidation any time he wants to - it is a matter of his wife’s feelings.
Again it is simple. Follow the example set by Jesus Christ our Lord and He will set you free.
The example of Christ is that He followed the Law with perfection in every way, without worrying about people’s feelings.
It is not complicated. God is not the author of confusion. Do the words of Jesus seem complicated? Read the words of Christ in the gospel and you will not find complicated “rules” to living life.
I don’t know - the rules I find in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew chapters 5, 6, and 7) may not be complicated, but I have always found them challenging, and sometimes difficult to follow.
I am a born again follower of Jesus Christ our Lord and I am free. What a great feeling it is to not have all those rules and regulations to follow because I truly have a personal relationship with Jesus.
Just curious; do you follow all of the rules in the Sermon on the Mount?
He and He alone will set you free!
AMEN, that’s a true fact. It’s Jesus who gives us the grace to persevere in holiness. 👍
 
Here is more information on the mental state required for convalidation, from Annulment: The Wedding That Was, by Michael Smith Foster, ISBN 0-8091-3844-1:

Q. 47. What is defective convalidation?

If the original consent of either or both of the parties needs to be convalidated because a diriment impediment existed on the wedding day, the impediment must first cease to exist. Then, the party or parties who were aware of its existence must acknowledge the invalidity of their union and make a new act of consent. If convalidation is required because there was a defect of consent on the wedding day, then the party whose consent was defective must acknowledge the invalidity and give new consent. If convalidation is required because of a defect of form on the wedding day, both parties must acknowledge invalidity and place new consent to bring about a valid marriage. If the new consent is not properly given, this could amount to total simulation.

Foster goes on to give an example where a marriage is found to be null because the original ceremony had a defect of form, and the convalidation was null because the non-Catholic party, Peter, believed the convalidation ceremony to be unnecessary - that “*t was simply something they had to do; it was some foolish matter of Church ‘legalese.’”. Foster writes:

It was apparent to the court that Peter did not acknowledge the first wedding ceremony as invalid, nor did he place a new act of consent when they went to the rectory. The tribunal declared that the validation was invalid due to his lack of consent.*
 
Hello Agent,

Since April 2006 (see here), your marriage is now considered invalid in the external forum, i.e., according to the Church, due to the lack of the required canonical form. Theologically, the conclusion seems to be that your marriage is therefore also invalid in the internal forum, i.e., according to God, due to the power that God gave to the Church over the sacraments. I find this conclusion difficult to accept because before April 2006, the Church considered you to be in a valid, sacramental marriage that no power on Earth, not even the Pope himself, could dissolve. I guess they underestimated the power of the Vatican bureaucracy to change the rules out from under you.
Could you please clarify what exactly you are arguing here? I’m assuming you are arguing that the April 2006 document was not retroactive, and thus all marriages contracted before that would have been bound to the more conventional and popular interpretation of “formal act” of defection.
If you and your wife choose to convalidate your marriage, this would solve your problem as regards the external forum, as the Church would then consider your marriage to be presumed valid per canon 1060 (see here) of the Church’s rules. However, the conventional wisdom of canon lawyers is that unless both you and your wife believe that your present marriage is invalid, you will be unable to properly manifest the required consent per canon 1057 to be able to enter into a valid marriage now. Thus, a convalidation would not seem to be able to affect the internal forum, i.e., the state of your marriage according to God.
I have read conflicting things about this. I have read in some places that both parties must acknowledge that the present marriage is invalid, and I have read in others that only the Catholic party must acknowledge this, while the non-Catholic party must only renew their consent. And I understand that the latter side is often held to in practice.

For example, see the way Jimmy Akin handled a similar case. While he doesn’t address this question explicitly, his answer seems to imply to me that the spouse does not need to recognize that the marriage was never valid in the first place:

jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2006/06/convalidation_w.html
 
Could you please clarify what exactly you are arguing here?
I’m not arguing anything, per se. In reading this thread, I sense a disconnect between what Agent is asking, and what some of the other posters are advising him to do. My analysis of this disconnect is that some of the other posters are treating Agent’s question as though he were only inquiring as to the mechanics of performing a particular Church process, and they are advising Agent based on what “boxes on the form” need to be checked off in order to complete this process. However, I understand Agent to be asking a much deeper question, going beyond the mechanical following of a Church process in order to find out what is required of him in order to truly please God.

In concrete terms, some of the these posters, as well as some of the parish priests, apparently, are just telling him to go through the convalidation process and all will be well. However, this seems to me to be ignoring Agent’s very real concern that such a mechanical convalidation ceremony would be invalid, and thus not pleasing to God.

I am using the language of internal forum and external forum (see here) to explore this disconnect more fully. I am hesitant to make definitive statements concerning the internal forum, i.e., the way God views Agent’s marriage, because I don’t like speaking for God.
I’m assuming you are arguing that the April 2006 document was not retroactive, and thus all marriages contracted before that would have been bound to the more conventional and popular interpretation of “formal act” of defection.
My understanding is that the Vatican has not clarified whether the April 2006 document is to applied retroactively. I’ve read, and I agree with, Jimmy Akin’s and Ed Peters’ arguments that it should not be applied retroactively. However, I’ve also seen indications that canonical jurisprudence is making retroactive application of the document. For example, there was a poster on Catholic Answers about a year ago who, prior to April 2006, joined a Protestant church, married in that church, divorced civilly, and reverted back to the Catholic church. He applied for an annulment, but was turned down on the grounds that he had defected from the Church by a formal act and so was no longer bound by canonical form, and there were no other grounds for annulment. However, after April 2006, he reapplied to the tribunal, and was found free to marry under the document’s new definition of defection by a formal act.

In Agent’s case, it is clear that his diocese is applying the April 2006 document retroactively, in that they hold his marriage to be invalid due to lack of form. In this case, it only seems fair to me that the bishop should grant Agent a (retroactive) radical sanation of his marriage to counteract the retroactive application of the document.

Ideally, it would be nice if Agent’s diocese clarified that the document does not apply retroactively in his case, so that he need do nothing in order to be right with God and the Church, but I’m not going to hold my breath.
I have read conflicting things about this. I have read in some places that both parties must acknowledge that the present marriage is invalid, and I have read in others that only the Catholic party must acknowledge this, while the non-Catholic party must only renew their consent. And I understand that the latter side is often held to in practice.
Here, I have had a different experience than you. Everything I have read by canon lawyers has consistently indicated that both parties must have some awareness that their original marriage was invalid in order to be able to give the full consent required for the convalidation to be valid. The gold standard is Lawrence Wrenn’s The Invalid Marriage, which states on page 171:

F. Convalidating Marriages Invalid Because Of Lack Of Form

C. 1160 is clearly speaking about marriages that involved at least one Catholic in which the form was neither observed nor dispensed. In convalidating such marriages, as noted in Section B, even the non-Catholic party has, under both the old and the new Code, been obligated to observe ecclesiastical law. In such cases, therefore, it is required that both parties a) personally recognize the invalidity or at least the probable invalidity of the former marriage and b) transfer the marital right to their partner, i.e. not merely confirm or reiterate a former exchange of rights but actually give a new marital consent distinct from the former inefficacious one.

This does not usually involve a problem where both parties are Catholic but these requirements demand more than can reasonably be expected of most non-Catholics. Consequently many convalidations involving a non-Catholic can be proven invalid on the ground that the non-Catholic party either failed to recognize the original union as invalid or failed to give new consent.

Finally, it must be remembered that in these cases it is not necessary to prove simulation, i.e. exclusion of marital consent by a positive act of the will; but it is only necessary to prove the negative omission of the new consent required for a valid convalidation. See …
For example, see the way Jimmy Akin handled a similar case. While he doesn’t address this question explicitly, his answer seems to imply to me that the spouse does not need to recognize that the marriage was never valid in the first place:

jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2006/06/convalidation_w.html
Thanks for the link. I agree that Jimmy Akin does not address the question explicitly. My take is that his answer just ignored the issue altogether.
 
“Just Lurking” seems to appreciate my dilemma. I have an appt on Wed to speak with my parish pastor about this. I have corresponded with the judicial vicar in my dicosese and he advises me to pursue the radical sanation as the convalidation would go against conscience for us.
 
I’ll say a prayer for you both! Just think of how much you can “offer up”. 🙂 I’m sure we all sympathize with you, but pray for perseverance. I pray for some of my children who are in the same situation.
 
I met with the parish priest yesterday. He said all I need to do is go to confession and say a profession of faith to come back to Church fully. He said since I didn’t think I was a Catholic when I was married but felt I was a Protestant then the marriage can be treated as if it was Protestant. No need for convalidation or radical sanation. ( He said marriage tribunal is “legalistic”).
 
I met with the parish priest yesterday. He said all I need to do is go to confession and say a profession of faith to come back to Church fully. He said since I didn’t think I was a Catholic when I was married but felt I was a Protestant then the marriage can be treated as if it was Protestant. No need for convalidation or radical sanation. ( He said marriage tribunal is “legalistic”).
Okay, then! 🙂

I’m sure glad you contacted your priest; it turns out there wasn’t anything to worry about, after all. 🙂
 
I met with the parish priest yesterday. He said all I need to do is go to confession and say a profession of faith to come back to Church fully. He said since I didn’t think I was a Catholic when I was married but felt I was a Protestant then the marriage can be treated as if it was Protestant. No need for convalidation or radical sanation. ( He said marriage tribunal is “legalistic”).
You might consider contacting a Canon Lawyer, and doing some investigation into formal defection from the Church - from what I understand it is more than just feeling you are Protestant 🤷 A canon lawyer could answer that for you.
 
I am accepting what the parish priest told me. I explained the situation and he told me what I need to do to rectify the situation. As far as I am concerned, I am done with this issue and going to obey what the parish priest tells me.

Thanks for all the assistance and advice you have given me.
 
I am accepting what the parish priest told me. I explained the situation and he told me what I need to do to rectify the situation. As far as I am concerned, I am done with this issue and going to obey what the parish priest tells me.
That’s exactly what you should do. 🙂
Thanks for all the assistance and advice you have given me.
My apologies for anything that caused you unnecessary anxiety. :o
 
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