Married member's of CAF, who comes second?

[marymary1975]

I am married and do have kids but even if I were not, it wouldn’t mean I couldn’t teach you anything on the subject. I have learned a great deal about parenting and marriage from Nuns and Priests who were never married and had no children.

And yes, it’s insulting to tell someone they seem young and inexperienced. I simply have a different perspective.

Well sorry if it sounded insulting, it wasn’t meant to but what you are saying simply does not sound with the reality of most parents. How old are your kids?

 

[robwar]

In thinking of this title, I am reviewing in my mind the parable of the good Samaritan in where the first two people that came on the beaten, dying man was to ignore him and walk by. Now, there were ceremonial laws for priest and Levite to follow in not touching a dead man and they probably felt that they were “putting God first” But the person that put God first was the Samaritan that stopped to help the man. I think it’s kinda silly to split hairs over saying God is first then my family and in my family, my spouse then my children. One serves God by serving others around them and these sayings like putting God first etc are really rather hollow because no one can say what they really means or even how that is lived out. Instead these made up categories, one should be intent of serving God period and if one is married, then you serve God by serving your spouse and respective children.

 

[LongingSoul]

I am married and do have kids but even if I were not, it wouldn’t mean I couldn’t teach you anything on the subject. I have learned a great deal about parenting and marriage from Nuns and Priests who were never married and had no children.

And yes, it’s insulting to tell someone they seem young and inexperienced. I simply have a different perspective.

However, nuns and Priests as the spouses of the Church and brides of Christ, know the importance of tending to that spousal relationship above all others. Mother Teresa whose ‘children’ were in constant need, always made time each day for her prayer and contemplation. Priest also know the critical importance of their spousal relationship over their duties to their flock. That spousal relationship is the vessel in which all other relationships will exist.

Let me give another analogy. Say marriage is like a boat built to carry your family on a journey. Although the children are the most valuable, vulnerable and precious of cargo… the most important dty of the parents is maintaining the integrity of the boat. First and foremost, the patching of the leaks and the placement of ballast require a constant attention for its fundamental integrity.

It’s talking apples and oranges to juxtapose the spousal relationship and the parental relationship. That’s like saying that the cargo is the most precious thing (which it is) so I have to tend to it in any event like the boat sinking or a storm. That reflects a false sense of the dynamic of marriage.

Marriage is like the vessel whose integrity is the most important element for the whole family on the choppy seas of life.

 

[agapewolf]

Insult??? I haven’t used any insults. Second if you are not married and do not have kids, withregard to the subject of marriage and parenting, you can teach me as much as a pre-med student can teach a heart surgeon on how to do open heart surgery. I do not mneed to study any science on parenting because I already parented a child who is a pre teen, who by the way does excellent on all areas and always gets complimented on how good she is and she is quite proud of her so obviously I did something right, don’t you think? I don’t need to study any science, now talking and getting advice from successful parents with teenagers and adults, that I want but someone who has zero experience in marriage or parenting can’t teach someone who has been there already and gone back.

I disagree with you on this point (but agree with you on the whole rest of this thread).

Please do not puff up pride on this. Priests are not married, but that doesn’t mean they don’t know about the human condition and can’t offer guidance, and teach marriage prep.
JPII didn’t have kids and wasn’t married, and wasn’t a woman, but he knows more about family life, marriage, and women than anybody living in those roles. I am single without children, but many friends that are couples have shared with me varied diffiiculties in their marriage and family life and I’ve been able to offer objective perspective to them.

I agree that the poster you are speaking too seemed to be speaking from a young side without experience. But I also don’t have kids, but DID agree with you.

 

[bilop]

I disagree. The fact that a marriage can exist without children doesn’t make the spousal relationship more important. Protestants, Atheists, etc use this as an excuse for supporting same-sex marriage and other things that go against the Church. Also, as someone who regularly spends time with Catholic infertility groups, and as someone who has struggled greatly with infertility, Catholic marriages suffer an enormous amount as a result of being unable to conceive children. And that’s putting it mildly. Yes the marriage is still valid but likewise, a child born out of wedlock is still a valid child. A person may only have one spouse, at a time. But they may go on to have another spouse, sometimes more then one additional spouse. Just because it is one at a time, doesn’t imply that it’s relationship is more important. Also, spouses may separate from each other as well. This does not make their marriage invalid. It happens all the time. And even when a child leaves his mother and father, they are still parent and son/daughter. That never changes.

Well, I apparently have suffered even more from infertility than you have, since I have no children yet and you have 3 (per a later post) and I would say my marriage has not suffered at all. My wife and I have suffered greatly, both individually and together, but our marriage has not been damaged in the least.

If we never have children, I will not feel my marriage is lessened at all. Given what I’ve seen from other people, I would say children are just as likely to damage a marriage, as lack of children.

God Bless

 

[LongingSoul]

On the other hand, when I had my first child I found that my husband viewed my pouring of myself into our child as a threat to our marriage. After doing extensive research into the science of parenting, anthropology and now Church teachings, we both discovered that this view was the result of social conditioning. He changed. He began to pour into our children too and our marriage was strengthened tenfold. The Church teaches very much about self-donative love. We must not miss our opportunity to be sanctified through that self sacrifice towards our children. Our world is very much missing out on this and the result of that has harmed society a great deal.

Unfortunately you are limiting Church teaching to fit within the science and anthropological outcomes when the vital component of marriage, the sacramental grace, cannot be quantified empirically. Nature certainly demonstrates the importance of children over partner and there is the classic symbolism of the lioness whose cubs are number one priority in her world. The male is valued for contributing sperm, bringing food and protecting the litter. The concept of marriage, the lifelong monogomous union of partners doesn’t exist as that concept depends on the relationship with God that only humans can experience. In nature, if a partner isn’t fertile and productive of progeny, they aren’t valued as ‘a partner’. The lion is not valued and important beyond his practicle uses. Some species in nature actually kill creatures based on their usefulness to the species survival. In nature it is true to say that the offspring do indeed come before the father and mothers relationship.

However, as human beings, we value something a step beyond species survival. We value love as an expression of our being made in the image of our Creator. Love of course doesn’t trump nature… it turns it to the worship of God. As bilop so well pointed out, married love is as valid and holy in infertility as in fertility. In fact, infertile marriages profoundly demonstrate the sacred productiveness of the sacrament above and beyond producing the child. The desire to welcome children into the marriage validates the marriage as strongly as actually biologically producing them. That desire actually witnesses to grace and shines a light on the true nature of marriage as foundational to the business of offspring producing for humans. Without that understanding, we would certainly value our children more highly than any relationship between mother and father.

 

[RoseMary131]

It may be viewed that way because one spouse is neglecting the other and then the spouse reaches to the child to fill the void. My husband was on the unfortunate end of that experience as a child and it has had devastating consequences.

However, his parents relationship remains the same today. **The husband still neglects the wife. **

She simply has no one else to pour into now so the pouring into the child was a symptom of the problem, not the problem itself.

On the other hand, when I had my first child I found that my husband viewed my pouring of myself into our child as a threat to our marriage.

After doing extensive research into the science of parenting, anthropology and now Church teachings, we both discovered that this view was the result of social conditioning. He changed. He began to pour into our children too and our marriage was strengthened tenfold.

This is what I think I hear you stating… Your husband’s family of origin had great problems. The father did not value his own wife. His father neglected his mother.

With no “husband” in her home (as she was neglected or “abandoned” within her own home by her husband who was present), she built her relationship with the two people who were fully in her home - herself and her dear son. Your husband’s father, while actually present, was emotionally gone from your husband’s mother.

Maybe your husband also felt abandoned by his father.

When your husband watched you give so much time, energy, and love to your child, he saw his own family - Mom and Child -vs- Dad. Because in his home there was a division of who lived in the home - not a family - but two teams Mom and Child on one team and Dad alone on his team.

His family of origin problems carried over to his own emotions.

What changed him may not be something you discovered wrong with society - but he began to work through his pains with you - something his parent’s did not do - work through their pain together.

Your dear husband’s mother was hurting in her marriage. His father did not work through the problem with her. He did not see is father giving love to his mother. He was afraid you would not give love to him.

Your dear husband was hurting in his own marriage with you. As a loving wife, you worked through the problem with him. He saw you, his wife, giving love to him.

**Together **you worked on the relationship of your marriage. Together you both worked to heal the pains he carried from his father, from his family of origin.

Could it be this love you gave to him was what healed him or changed him, not so much what you “discovered” was wrong with society, but the love you gave him?

Could it be that together the two of you nourished the pains he felt from living in a dysfunctional family?

Could it be the fact you kept offering him love in his pain and that you sought to work together for your marriage that he changed or healed.

He grew up with a dysfunctional father - a man unable to love his wife properly.

His mother had no way to nourish her marriage. A true marriage didn’t exist for her then, nor today.

The pains you suffer due to the pains your husband suffered, might cause you to have the view that you have - that there is no need to put more focus on the relationship of marriage - the relationship of spouses.

While I don’t know about your own parent’s - you and your husband are greatly affected by his father who rejected his own marriage - his own spouse.

I would think that plays a huge role in how strongly you feel about the statements which have been made on this thread regarding the importance of nourishing marriage first in order to fully love the children.

Your dear husband was not fully loved by both his parents, even though they were married - they did not live the fullness of marriage.

You and your husband have first nourished your marriage and in so doing, together you two can fully love your children. You two have strengthen your own bond of marriage, a bond that had some ends frayed from your husbands’ dysfunctional father. You healed those wounds together.

May God continue to bless your marriage and your family. May God bring peace to your dear mother-in-law. May God bring a change of heart to your father-in-law .

 

[_Jenn]

Clearly jumping in well into the conversation, lol, but to answer the original “who comes second” question…

In our house, it depends. There are times when my husband or I need each other for something, but our son needs one or both of us at that time. Whoever has the greater need comes first. The older our son gets, the easier it is to naturally be able to place spouse above child, for the most part.

Ultimately, my husband & I view our relationship with our son to be just as valuable as our relationship with each other. Sure, someday he will be grown & leave. But we also keep in mind that one day, one of us will pass from this life, & the other will hopefully have cultivated a good enough relationship with him that he is very much there for the remaining parent.

 

[HoneyBea]

We all know God comes first, but in your life, who comes second? Is it your spouse, kids, the church? Just looking for everyone’s personal view. Thanks.

God and all that entails, my spouse, my children in that order

 

[Saturn5]

It has been fascinating watching this thread. My priority is God, my spouse, my children.

My real world experience:

My wife and I are cradle Catholics, but were not 100% in communion with the Church when we remarried each other. We are both divorced from previous marriages. Also, like most everyone, suffered from watching disfunctional marriages of our parents. In my wife’s case it was more severe, with her father being emotionally and verbally abusive to her mother and having a number of affairs (they are still married, 53 years this summer). My wife’s goal in life was to have children. I wanted them terribly as well. Neither of us had children from our previous marriages. We faced challenges with infertility and chose to adopt.

We were a “team” and couple up until having children. As a couple, there wasn’t any obstacle or struggle we couldn’t overcome. By year 7 of the marriage (and year 5 of having children) my wife came to me and told me I love you, but I’m not in love with you. Her priority was and is the kids.

By the grace of God, He led me to rediscovering my faith and the correct priorities in life. He was not my (or our) priority when we married. We prayed a little together, but it was only during challenges in our life.

Fast forward to today. Yes, God is my priority. Without Him, His mercy and forgiveness I know I would not be here today. My wife, even with the struggles she has with the marriage is my second priority. I open doors for her, do date nights, love her as unconditionally as my flawed human nature can. Our children are next and they know it…and are fine with it. Because they know without God, we are nothing. If God can forgive me for my sins, pettiness and selfishness, then I need to inturn forgive others who have done the same to me.

My wife is and will always be second. I could chose to look at how she neglects me, disregards my emotions and feelings, and pretty much refuses to attempt to heal the marriage. I could be bitter, angry and in general loath my wife. But I don’t. Albeit pretty one-sided on the effort, it provides a unified front of marriage and the sacrament to the children. And I don’t look to capture my lack of emotional intimacy with my wife with our children instead. That sets up a very unhealthy relationship with them and sets a precident of suffering for them in the future.

Sadly, my wife has a freight-train coming at her in the next couple years that she can’t see as the kids start to distance themselves from us more and more. They will leave, they will want too (just like all of us have when we left our parents). Without the proper priority, she will struggle more.

I pray for her everyday to allow Christ back in her heart.

 

[RoseMary131]

It has been fascinating watching this thread. My priority is God, my spouse, my children.

My real world experience:

By the grace of God, He led me to rediscovering my faith and the correct priorities in life.

My wife is and will always be second.

Sadly, my wife has a freight-train coming at her in the next couple years that she can’t see as the kids start to distance themselves from us more and more. They will leave, they will want too (just like all of us have when we left our parents). Without the proper priority, she will struggle more.

I pray for her everyday to allow Christ back in her heart.

Your post is beautiful. Thank you for sharing with us such a deep, personal story. Thank you for your beautiful witness to God and prayer. Your wife is blessed every day by your prayers.

On a side note, I invite you and your beautiful wife to spend a weekend with each other with World Wide Marriage Encounter. It is a weekend for the two of you to focus only on each other and growing closer day by day.

wwme.org/

wwme.org/learn-more.html

 

[thewanderer]

What absolutely is?

**Well, first they have to overcome the damage that was done to them being raised in environment as an infant/toddler/child/teen where their own parent put their spouse above them. **This is not what the Church teaches us to do.

This really serves what I’m saying more than the opposite. The brief time we have with our children is so critical for the rest of their lives and essentially, so critical for all of society. The time we have with them forms them. We have already been formed. This time is so crucial yet we must put our spouse first even though we will have them for many more decades after our children are gone??? Madness! I’m reading what the Church teaches and I’m just seeing how absolutely important this brief time with our children is. It’s not time to put a spouse first, not at all. Yes, I agree with everyone else that we should not neglect our spouse but rather respect the dignity of each member of the family and give according to the needs of each. Children generally have far greater needs during this period of time. This is a fact that the Church states.

Honestly, I think you think we’re saying something we’re not. Believing that your relationship to your spouse is more fundamental than your relationship to your children is not going to damage your children so long as you still fulfill all of your duties as a parent and spouse. As people have already said, what they mean by putting spouse first does not in any way shape or form mean neglecting their children or failing to meet any of their children’s needs. How is it possibly damaging for a child to be raised well with all of their needs met including that of their parents having a healthy and stable marriage because they always made their marriage a priority? Nobody is saying its ok to ignore your kids to hang out with your spouse if doing so is going to really harm your kids. Everybody is in agreement that both spouse and children have needs that absolutely must be attended to. And it is your job as spouse and parent to give selflessly of yourself to meet those needs, as you so rightly pointed out in previous posts. **Nobody ** here is disagreeing with that. It is simply wrong to claim that if you believe there is something more fundamental about your relationship with your spouse your children will be damaged. The fact that you have made this claim makes it clear that even though you claim to understand that no one is advocating for the neglect of children that is actually in fact exactly what you think we are advocating. We are not.

 

[Saturn5]

Your post is beautiful. Thank you for sharing with us such a deep, personal story. Thank you for your beautiful witness to God and prayer. Your wife is blessed every day by your prayers.

On a side note, I invite you and your beautiful wife to spend a weekend with each other with World Wide Marriage Encounter. It is a weekend for the two of you to focus only on each other and growing closer day by day.

wwme.org/

wwme.org/learn-more.html

Thank you for your comments and the links RoseMary. I would love to attend Retrouvaille with my wife actually and have suggested it numerous times. She refuses right now. But I have seen and know the power of prayer and continue to pray for her to embrace Christ in her life. Once she does that, the rest will be much easier!

My intension in my story was to point out the difference between having the right priorities in your life and the impact it has on those around you. I agree with all the comments here that it doesn’t mean you neglect your children, but the focus needs to be correct. I am blessed every day to witness the depth of faith our children have and that gives me strength to continue. By all means, and wish to emphasize, that is not solely my doing. My wife has many wonderful qualities. On the contray, I could not do it without her! When we are in agreement on things, we are a parental tsunami, able to support, help and otherwise guide our children on the right path. Those are the miracles I see everyday and know that the truth of Jesus Christ is chipping away at the wall that was put up because of baggage she carries from her youth.

 

[DanielJT]

Your relationship with your spouse is the foundation of your family. If that is not solid, the rest is more likely to crumble.

Think about this: your children need leadership on both fronts, plus good examples for how to deal with conflict, hardships, and just basic social interaction with people they care about. When you have a rocky relationship with your spouse or are neglecting him/her your children see this.

This is not to say that you should put your children by the way side when both your spouse and your children need some kind of attention. But one example is the classic “date night guilt” when a couple cuts a date short or avoids them all together because they are worried that the children will feel left out. It is the exact opposite. The children need to see that Mom and Dad work to have a special relationship with each other. Then they begin to understand that having a special relationship with others is not only something that needs work, but is also something to be cherished.