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CallMeDad
Guest
OP - make it four who disagree with you. And, for the record, I was on your side for the first couple of pages. But then you turned on the charm. You’re showing yourself to be a hard guy to back.
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Evania
Guest
Yes, Easter Joy, Really!Did you really write “You don’t sound emotionally stable enough to handle it anyway” in the same post where you’re complaining that the OP is making overly personal attacks? And then did you threaten him that his wife was going to leave him if he didn’t see things your way, and it would be his fault?
Really?
I said that he doesn’t “seem” emotionally stable to handle advice because he doesn’t. He has posted in a forum, received responses and then went on the attack. Here is a few:
“Don’t be dope.”
“I will take such silliness from my wife. You don’t have those privileges.”
“Stick that in your feminist pipe and smoke it!”
If you want to reread my first post, I initially agreed with him. Not now.
Also, I did not say he will lose his wife if he doesn’t see things MY way. Where do you see that? Here are my actual words: “If your wife does end up with someone else, it will be because of behavior like this.”
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EasterJoy
Guest
You’re telling him that if his wife is unfaithful, it will be his fault, because you’ve been finding him annoying. Nice. Very nice. Yes, that will make him feel much more secure about his marriage…good move, I’m sure his wife will thank you, too.
Yes, let’s look at your early post:
What did I say to suggest that this is no big deal? I actually believe the opposite…I definitely believe that this man shouldn’t be giving your wife gifts, expensive or otherwise. I don’t know what this man’s intentions are, but it’s just plain odd and innapropriate. I personally do not believe in close bonds of friendships between the sexes especially when one is married. I hope that your wife listens to your feelings on this matter.
Why did you change your tune? The facts of the situation didn’t change, only your perception of the OP. Do your principles change when someone annoys you? How did you go from thinking the situation was odd and inappropriate to thinking the OP was emotionally unstable (?!?) for finding it odd and inappropriate and not brooking any argument over that point?
He doesn’t respect her as a human at all.
His attitude and jealousy will be what ruins his marriage.
Oh. Good. Grief.
The guy objects to some fellow giving his wife expensive gifts, something most of us thought was inappropriate, as far as we know this is still a low-level conversation between the husband and a wife who while not in agreement has also not told him to go soak his head in the toilet over this issue, and it is going to be his attitude that ruins his marriage. Let us be honest: What is not liked here is his blunt answers aimed at the posters on this thread, not things he’s said to his wife. You were on his side, people, until he upset you. Now he’s a control freak who will have it coming if his wife walks out on him.
I think I’ll go listen to Congress debate, where the rhetoric will be turned down a little bit.
OP, go talk to your wife. As noted earlier, it does not matter what we vote here. It only matters what she votes. Be smarter than the people in Congress when you lobby for her vote. If you are a smart man, you will not make your pitch in a way that invites your wife to dig her heels in.
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dedo
Guest
The views in this thread have gone a little too far on both sides.
I think it is reasonable for the OP to suggest that this guy not be encouraged with his attention to the OP’s wife.
However, that is not the main defense for this kind of thing. The OP should look at what kind of attention he has been giving his wife. This is not intended to be a criticism of the OP. It is something that we all need to do. If the attention that the OP is giving to his wife far exceed anything anyone else would even dream of doing, then this sort of issue tends to disappear. This is also a good defense for attacks by mother in laws and ninjas.
So I would suggest from the posts I have read that the OP:
That is usually the first place to look for a solution to a problem.
I think it is reasonable for the OP to suggest that this guy not be encouraged with his attention to the OP’s wife.
However, that is not the main defense for this kind of thing. The OP should look at what kind of attention he has been giving his wife. This is not intended to be a criticism of the OP. It is something that we all need to do. If the attention that the OP is giving to his wife far exceed anything anyone else would even dream of doing, then this sort of issue tends to disappear. This is also a good defense for attacks by mother in laws and ninjas.
So I would suggest from the posts I have read that the OP:
- Improve the attention etc. he pays to his wife.
- Improve his socialization so that he goes out with his wife more as a couple, with other couples. Sometimes you just need to think of this sort of thing as a drill. You need to do it. If you have fun, then that is a bonus. Just go and do your best.
- If 1&2 are acted on, then the OP can discuss with his wife the issue of reigning this guy in or refusing a present etc.
That is usually the first place to look for a solution to a problem.
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Xantippe
Guest
EasterJoy said:
"The guy objects to some fellow giving his wife expensive gifts, something most of us thought was inappropriate, "
On second thought, I don’t know that it is such a big deal. He made some DVDs, he did some photos (which is his hobby), and he gave the wife a lens he wasn’t using. Big deal–maybe he’s just a thoughtful person. A year or so ago, my husband and I gave a young couple a whole used dryer (which is at least as valuable a gift as the lens) that we could have sold. Was it because we had illicit erotic intentions toward them?–no, not at all.
"The guy objects to some fellow giving his wife expensive gifts, something most of us thought was inappropriate, "
On second thought, I don’t know that it is such a big deal. He made some DVDs, he did some photos (which is his hobby), and he gave the wife a lens he wasn’t using. Big deal–maybe he’s just a thoughtful person. A year or so ago, my husband and I gave a young couple a whole used dryer (which is at least as valuable a gift as the lens) that we could have sold. Was it because we had illicit erotic intentions toward them?–no, not at all.
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shainski
Guest
Interesting conversation.
I do think that OP is overreacting, but I don’t know the parties involved.
But this thread brought back a memory from my own past.
I was a mid-twenties middle manager in a small company. Photography was also a hobby of mine - and this was before the digital age - so there was a real cost to buying and developing a roll or two of film. But, it would be nothing for me to take my camera everywhere and shoot a roll of film at a party. (In fact, I took so many pictures, that i didn’t even usually get prints made - but usually a contact sheet).
So one day, a woman in another department (“L”) invited me (as well as a number of coworkers) to a party. (I was single, she was married) As was my hobby at the time, I did take a couple dozen pictures of people at the event. I got the film developed as a contact sheet, but also ordered prints - since i thought I could pass them out to coworkers who had been at the party.
When I got them back, I asked was showing people the pictures. And everybody enthusiastically wanted to see them. But when i asked “L” - she said “no”. Something in that quiet “no” made me think that there was a problem. So, I asked her “Is there something wrong?”
“L” went on to tell me that I had taken more pictures of her than anyone else - and she wasn’t the only one who noticed it.
I was completely taken aback. What was she implying? But because I had the contact sheets, I could prove that there were no more pictures of her than anyone else - and of the five or six pictures that had her in them, three or four were group shots.
I completely removed myself from interacting with her from that point on. I had no interest in her - and knowing she was married, I wouldn’t have had an interest in her anyway.
I realized that my hobby may have had unintended consequences - and it made me self-conscious for a time after that.
OP - everything you said could have a very innocent explanations. On the other hand - you’ve met him, and I haven’t. Your past has taught you that men are not to be trusted - and that is a shame - so you view the world though a prism that slants reality they way you want to see it. (But I suppose we all do that). But you come here and look for “ammunition” to convince your wife that you are right.
I think you are making a mistake. I don’t think you should appeal to your wife because you are right. I think you should appeal to her that you are probably being paranoid - but you have seen firsthand the problem with cheating - and it makes you feel uneasy. You don’t blame her - and you don’t blame her friend. But it makes you uncomfortable that she accepts gifts of any kind from him or any man. Ask her to be sensitive to how you feel - because it is driving you crazy - not because you don’t trust her.
If you approach it that way, you won’t come off as if you are a controlling bully that won’t allow her out of your sight. And try not to read into every situation some hidden message. Because you can always twist the tea leaves to give you some indication of what you fear is going on - and it will drive you crazy.
I do think that OP is overreacting, but I don’t know the parties involved.
But this thread brought back a memory from my own past.
I was a mid-twenties middle manager in a small company. Photography was also a hobby of mine - and this was before the digital age - so there was a real cost to buying and developing a roll or two of film. But, it would be nothing for me to take my camera everywhere and shoot a roll of film at a party. (In fact, I took so many pictures, that i didn’t even usually get prints made - but usually a contact sheet).
So one day, a woman in another department (“L”) invited me (as well as a number of coworkers) to a party. (I was single, she was married) As was my hobby at the time, I did take a couple dozen pictures of people at the event. I got the film developed as a contact sheet, but also ordered prints - since i thought I could pass them out to coworkers who had been at the party.
When I got them back, I asked was showing people the pictures. And everybody enthusiastically wanted to see them. But when i asked “L” - she said “no”. Something in that quiet “no” made me think that there was a problem. So, I asked her “Is there something wrong?”
“L” went on to tell me that I had taken more pictures of her than anyone else - and she wasn’t the only one who noticed it.
I was completely taken aback. What was she implying? But because I had the contact sheets, I could prove that there were no more pictures of her than anyone else - and of the five or six pictures that had her in them, three or four were group shots.
I completely removed myself from interacting with her from that point on. I had no interest in her - and knowing she was married, I wouldn’t have had an interest in her anyway.
I realized that my hobby may have had unintended consequences - and it made me self-conscious for a time after that.
OP - everything you said could have a very innocent explanations. On the other hand - you’ve met him, and I haven’t. Your past has taught you that men are not to be trusted - and that is a shame - so you view the world though a prism that slants reality they way you want to see it. (But I suppose we all do that). But you come here and look for “ammunition” to convince your wife that you are right.
I think you are making a mistake. I don’t think you should appeal to your wife because you are right. I think you should appeal to her that you are probably being paranoid - but you have seen firsthand the problem with cheating - and it makes you feel uneasy. You don’t blame her - and you don’t blame her friend. But it makes you uncomfortable that she accepts gifts of any kind from him or any man. Ask her to be sensitive to how you feel - because it is driving you crazy - not because you don’t trust her.
If you approach it that way, you won’t come off as if you are a controlling bully that won’t allow her out of your sight. And try not to read into every situation some hidden message. Because you can always twist the tea leaves to give you some indication of what you fear is going on - and it will drive you crazy.
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Xantippe
Guest
iHeartGrumpyCat said:
“Sorry, your highness. But you were commenting on something you know nothing about. I call that trolling.”
You provided information and asked for advice. You got advice based on the information you gave. It was not unsolicited.
“I will take such silliness from my wife. You don’t have those privileges.”
Does your wife know that you regard her thoughts and words as “silliness”?
I wrote:
“Also, you talk of “protecting” your wife from this man (which is a weird and somewhat disrespectful thing for an adult man to say of an fully functioning adult woman who isn’t being physically threatened.”
IHGC wrote: “Perhaps I should have said “protecting our marriage”. And as for protecting my wife physically, of course it’s my job. Men tend to be stronger, tend to be the aggressors. It’s a man’s job to protect his family.”
I reply:
…mainly from other men. Sad but true.
IHGC:
“Stick that in your feminist pipe and smoke it!”
No comment.
IHGC said:
“Neither is her having an affair. That’s not happening now and I intend to make sure it doesn’t in the future.”
And how do you presume to stop it? By being jealous, controlling, anti-social and morose? Good luck with that.
“And I’m not worried about my wife, I’m worried about the other guy. He’s the one doing the poaching.”
Do you really think he’s going to club her over the head and drag her off? Really?
“Sorry, your highness. But you were commenting on something you know nothing about. I call that trolling.”
You provided information and asked for advice. You got advice based on the information you gave. It was not unsolicited.
“I will take such silliness from my wife. You don’t have those privileges.”
Does your wife know that you regard her thoughts and words as “silliness”?
I wrote:
“Also, you talk of “protecting” your wife from this man (which is a weird and somewhat disrespectful thing for an adult man to say of an fully functioning adult woman who isn’t being physically threatened.”
IHGC wrote: “Perhaps I should have said “protecting our marriage”. And as for protecting my wife physically, of course it’s my job. Men tend to be stronger, tend to be the aggressors. It’s a man’s job to protect his family.”
I reply:
…mainly from other men. Sad but true.
IHGC:
“Stick that in your feminist pipe and smoke it!”
No comment.
IHGC said:
“Neither is her having an affair. That’s not happening now and I intend to make sure it doesn’t in the future.”
And how do you presume to stop it? By being jealous, controlling, anti-social and morose? Good luck with that.
“And I’m not worried about my wife, I’m worried about the other guy. He’s the one doing the poaching.”
Do you really think he’s going to club her over the head and drag her off? Really?
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Xantippe
Guest
Allow me to amend and expand my reply.
IHGC said:
“Neither is her having an affair. That’s not happening now and I intend to make sure it doesn’t in the future.”
And how do you presume to stop it? By being jealous, controlling, abrasive, prickly, anti-social and morose? Good luck with that.
The guy you are being right now is not the one your wife fell in love with and married. Get back in touch with him.
IHGC said:
“Neither is her having an affair. That’s not happening now and I intend to make sure it doesn’t in the future.”
And how do you presume to stop it? By being jealous, controlling, abrasive, prickly, anti-social and morose? Good luck with that.
The guy you are being right now is not the one your wife fell in love with and married. Get back in touch with him.
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EasterJoy
Guest
“On second thought” means you are overruling your initial intuition–why? It is not that you have found, for instance, that this fellow is very wealthy and has this habit of turning over all his gear for the next top-of-the-line thing, giving both his male and female friends in the photography world his expensive-but-unwanted castoffs. The only reason to see that gift differently is that people see the OP differently. I don’t see what difference that makes!
The OPs concerns are because he knows nasty philanderers who cross a line, and he knows their “moves”. He may know a lot more about that than any of us, enough that he knows that feeling in his stomach when he sees someone like that. My concern, though, is that I know decent people who never intended to have a thing for each other cross a line. Even those who don’t cross the line into adultery can still cross the line into covetousness, and that is a real sin that does real damage to marital relationships.
If the OP reported finding a philanderer around every corner, I’d ask him if perhaps his “creep meter” isn’t turned up a bit too high. As far as I know, though, we only know about one guy. Maybe his wife is emerging from six or eight years of exhaustion and this is his first experience with her having a hobby that doesn’t revolve around her husband and family, so that is why this is a novel situation for him, not because anything is really wrong. OK, fine, he may not realize that his life and hers is marching on, and that this is not a big deal. That is a possibility. He might, though, know very well what appropriate male friends of his wife act like, and this isn’t it. He shouldn’t be vilified for finding something to be concerned about.
In any event, he has never accused his wife of anything. He has not expressed the sentiment that every guy out there is slobbering over her, only that some fraction of men most certainly are, which we have to admit from the self-reports of decent men struggling to keep their thoughts chaste is almost certainly true–that is, because we know a lot of men don’t bother with the “struggle” part. He wouldn’t be the first man to tell me that if women could read minds, they wouldn’t think it is nutty to cover themselves up a lot more, even around average decent men.
He is concerned that someone they know is perhaps near to the occasion of the sin of coveting her. The fellow in question has crossed what many people consider a red line: that is, the line of giving expensive gifts. I don’t think that warrants a conviction, but I do think it warrants a certain amount of concern. It warrants a conversation with his wife about what boundaries they think apply in cases like these. The older their kids get, the more the parents will be out and about in adult company like this. They would do well to communicate both about how they feel about these things and how they want to talk about things that come up in the future. This might be the first and only problem like this–women do not usually have male friends giving them expensive gifts–but it is worth being ready that it is not. Better to have a common sense way to negotiate these things. It will lower the anxiety level and mutual annoyance level to talk about it rationally, before there is something to worry about.
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iHeartGrumpyCat
Guest
You as a couple gave another couple a gift.
This was a married man giving a married woman a gift.
It’s a totally different situation.
And I really don’t think the lens is used. My DSLR lens is obviously used, the gifted one doesn’t have a mark on it. The lens is still sold on Amazon for $200, it’s current technology.
How old was your dryer?
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iHeartGrumpyCat
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BlueEyedLady
Guest
Don’t tell us why we think as we do. It has NOTHING to do with the way he’s talked to people here and everything to do with this thread and his previous posts. He holds a horrible view of men, doesn’t trust his wife near any of them, and views himself as some sort of bodyguard.You’re telling him that if his wife is unfaithful, it will be his fault, because you’ve been finding him annoying. Nice. Very nice. Yes, that will make him feel much more secure about his marriage…good move, I’m sure his wife will thank you, too.
Yes, let’s look at your early post:
What did I say to suggest that this is no big deal? I actually believe the opposite…I definitely believe that this man shouldn’t be giving your wife gifts, expensive or otherwise. I don’t know what this man’s intentions are, but it’s just plain odd and innapropriate. I personally do not believe in close bonds of friendships between the sexes especially when one is married. I hope that your wife listens to your feelings on this matter.
Why did you change your tune? The facts of the situation didn’t change, only your perception of the OP. Do your principles change when someone annoys you? How did you go from thinking the situation was odd and inappropriate to thinking the OP was emotionally unstable (?!?) for finding it odd and inappropriate and not brooking any argument over that point?
He doesn’t respect her as a human at all.
His attitude and jealousy will be what ruins his marriage.
Oh. Good. Grief.
The guy objects to some fellow giving his wife expensive gifts, something most of us thought was inappropriate, as far as we know this is still a low-level conversation between the husband and a wife who while not in agreement has also not told him to go soak his head in the toilet over this issue, and it is going to be his attitude that ruins his marriage. Let us be honest: What is not liked here is his blunt answers aimed at the posters on this thread, not things he’s said to his wife. You were on his side, people, until he upset you. Now he’s a control freak who will have it coming if his wife walks out on him.
I think I’ll go listen to Congress debate, where the rhetoric will be turned down a little bit.
OP, go talk to your wife. As noted earlier, it does not matter what we vote here. It only matters what she votes. Be smarter than the people in Congress when you lobby for her vote. If you are a smart man, you will not make your pitch in a way that invites your wife to dig her heels in.
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EasterJoy
Guest
Do you not see that the photographer is in a position to give the wife ego strokes that the husband is not? Do you not see that he is giving gifts to the family that do not include the husband…that is, he isn’t giving gifts to the family, but doing things for the wife and children but not the husband? In other words, that he is, intentionally or not, currying favor with the wife alone?
This photographer guy may be innocent of any bad motives, but it is not a good idea for him to cultivate the approval of the wife instead of the couple. If he gets more “satisfaction” out of his interactions with the wife than with the husband, that is even more true. He’s choosing to “show off” for her, and both his wife and her husband can see it. That is not a good idea.
Inappropriate affections happen between good people almost before anyone involved even knows what is happening. There is a reason they call it “falling” in love, after all. I think this fellow’s wife senses that a line is being neared, too, by her comment. That is the other reason I tend to think that a few reasonable boundaries would be prudent at this point in this couple’s life.
I think the OP would be wise to frame this question that way: that is, not that this fellow is in the mold of the “bad” guys he knows, but that good and lovable people fall in love with each other when they shouldn’t, sometimes. That does not have to happen, if care is taken. If he frames it that way, if he only asks for certain reasonable boundaries–that is, that neither he nor his wife accept gifts to just one of them from a member of the opposite sex, for instance–then I don’t see why his wife wouldn’t be willing to do that. It is a safety measure, in that case, not an indulgence of irrational jealousy, and only the same behavior she’d want from her husband when the same thing comes up in his future.
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iHeartGrumpyCat
Guest
Which the OP is not doing.
In fact, I’ve recently made a friend who is GASP a friend of my wife’s and is now my BFF on bees, which I am trying to raise.
He’s a great guy, very respectful to my wife, keeps his distance. I like him.
In fact, I may be borrowing some beekeeping equipment from him shortly.
No gifts, though! I’ll bee giving everything back.
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iHeartGrumpyCat
Guest
iHeartGC comments in RED:
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BlueEyedLady
Guest
Case in point. If you trusted or respected her it wouldn’t matter what other men do because you would know that she wouldn’t let anything happen.
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EasterJoy
Guest
The people who do research in this area say that 2/3 or more of both married men and married men self-report that they have cheated on their spouses at least once during their marriages. Maybe our pessimist is more realistic in his assessment of what it takes to remain faithful than those with a less “horrible” view?
You are right that fidelity is a goal that will be reached when both spouses self-impose boundaries on their interactions with others, and won’t be realized by one spouse being the smoke alarm that is constantly going off. There does have to be a joint effort and a willingness to see both spouses as partners in reaching the goal of mutual fidelity.
For instance, the OP self-reported that he is “not that kind of guy.” Oh, that is not a good idea. The boundaries he keeps on himself need to be just as strict as those he wants his wife to put on herself. The boundaries he puts on the females he interacts with need to be like those put on the men by his wife. Infidelities are not committed only by those who go looking for them or imagine themselves prone to them! People who are good excepting that they are careless fall into infidelity all the time. Just as he wants good boundaries for his faithful wife, he should also admit that he’ll be wise to have just that kind of boundary on himself, too.
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Xantippe
Guest
EasterJoy said:
““On second thought” means you are overruling your initial intuition–why?”
As I said, because I just remembered that we had given a couple a used dryer of more or less the same value. And remember, that’s the only really expensive gift he has given.
For IHGC:
Thanks for improving your tone.
It was a five-year-old Sears dryer (we were in the process of moving to an apartment that already had a landlord-provided dryer). So, not a super expensive item, but in the same financial ballpark as the lens.
I think your wife should tell him that she isn’t using the lens, and to offer it back to him and mention she will be giving it away or selling it if he doesn’t want it. Then get a sitter (if you need one) and go out to dinner with the money. Presto–he gets to be a friend to your marriage.
““On second thought” means you are overruling your initial intuition–why?”
As I said, because I just remembered that we had given a couple a used dryer of more or less the same value. And remember, that’s the only really expensive gift he has given.
For IHGC:
Thanks for improving your tone.
It was a five-year-old Sears dryer (we were in the process of moving to an apartment that already had a landlord-provided dryer). So, not a super expensive item, but in the same financial ballpark as the lens.
I think your wife should tell him that she isn’t using the lens, and to offer it back to him and mention she will be giving it away or selling it if he doesn’t want it. Then get a sitter (if you need one) and go out to dinner with the money. Presto–he gets to be a friend to your marriage.
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iHeartGrumpyCat
Guest
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Xantippe
Guest
Easter Joy,
The numbers I am seeing suggest that married women do somewhat less cheating than married men (I expect the disparity has something to do with strippers/prostitutes/etc. being a cheating husband thing, rather than a cheating wife thing).
Also, it doesn’t look like 2/3 is a consistent poll result. There are much lower numbers here:
nbcnews.com/id/17951664/ns/health-sexual_health/t/many-cheat-thrill-more-stay-true-love/#.Uk3JM9I3vvw
The numbers I am seeing suggest that married women do somewhat less cheating than married men (I expect the disparity has something to do with strippers/prostitutes/etc. being a cheating husband thing, rather than a cheating wife thing).
Also, it doesn’t look like 2/3 is a consistent poll result. There are much lower numbers here:
nbcnews.com/id/17951664/ns/health-sexual_health/t/many-cheat-thrill-more-stay-true-love/#.Uk3JM9I3vvw
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