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Fairwinds
Guest
I don’t know you, so how can I see you as anything?
I asked if you saw yourself as a leper.
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Prodigal_Son
Guest
I implied that I don’t.
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Fairwinds
Guest
thank you for clarifying that.
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Regular_Atheist
Guest
Sure. If it’s a same-sex marriage!
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
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michaelmas
Guest
If you are a part of the 12 step SSA program it states that you should NOT share your addiction with your wife until you have progressed through a few of the steps, etc. I would look for a local SSA group, get the white book, and start working the steps.I am a joyfully married Catholic man with an ever-increasing number of children. From childhood, I have experienced a strong attraction to males, and this attraction has not ever really gone away. Unlike many men with SSA, I am also attracted to women, most particularly to my wife.
When I married my wife, I was in a place of great freedom, in terms of sexual sin. I was open with her about my attractions and my past, of course. Nevertheless, only three people (immediate family members) besides her knew my story, since SSA is most definitely a sinful disposition that loves to hide. Over time, little by little, I fell back into a pornography addiction after we were married. My wife knew something about this, but I only let her in partly. My attitudes toward myself became completely covered in shame.
Recently, God has been pulling me out of that mire. I’ve begun to pray for an hour daily, and spend time with my heavenly Father. (Men with SSA, in particular, need one-on-one time with their Dad!) I have come fully into the light with a number of brothers and sisters in Christ who are not my family members. It is SUCH a relief and a blessing that I don’t have to hide!
But, in some sense, I still do. Among single people, there are an increasing number of people with SSA who are fully open about their struggles and their commitment to live chaste lives. (I’m thinking of people like Wesley Hill and Eve Tushnet, among others). These people have helped to show me that an attraction is not shameful, that there’s nothing wrong with being openly broken. In the meantime, however, I find that our culture – even, to some extent, Catholic culture – has only one category for me: since I am married to a woman and attracted to men, I must be a closeted homosexual that is wreaking havoc on my wife and children.
This social judgment becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, I think. Society has a notion of you, and you live up to it.
But not when you have God’s light in your life. In God’s light, I have realized that my temptations are nothing to be ashamed of, and hiding them is just plain stupid. Ideally, I think, married men who struggle with same-sex attraction would be just as open with these struggles as married men who struggle with ogling women in advertisements. It’s not something you shout from street corners, but you would share it readily in the right circumstances.
As it is, I think there are testimonies out there from married men who struggled with SSA, but it’s always in the past tense: “I used to be attracted to men, but now my wife and I are the whole world to each other.” Yeah, right. (OK, maybe I’m cynical, but that just seems to neat and tidy an ending.)
I expect that some people will tell me something like this: Imagine you “went public” about this in some form, and your kids found out someday? Imagine how ashamed your wife and kids would feel to be associated with you? Do they deserve that shame?
But these objections miss the point! It’s not something to be ashamed of. It’s a temptation, like any other. Would you be ashamed if your children found out that you once wanted to shoplift something? That you once felt a strong urge to strangle a driver who cut you off? What’s the difference between these cases and SSA?
Thoughts?
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Prodigal_Son
Guest
Well, um, I shared my history of addiction about ten years ago with the woman I was dating, so I can’t quite get the cat back in the bag now.
Also, after I fell back into the addiction, telling my wife was the key thing that helped me get out. Maybe if she had not known before, the procedure would have been different, I dunno.As I think I mentioned, I am working with a men’s group and a spiritual director, and making a lot of progress, so I’m not interested in an SSA group.
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Prodigal_Son
Guest
For the record, Mr. Atheist, my wife got a kick out of your comment and the accompanying image.
And we don’t know why you’re posting here either, so you’ll have to ask someone else.
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peace2u2
Guest
You ask a tough question. I’m not sure what the “right” answer is, but I would have to place myself in your situation to give an honest answer. Just curious, have you ever thought if your wife had SSA and came to you and revealed this and you were straight, how would you feel? This is only my opinion.I am a joyfully married Catholic man with an ever-increasing number of children. From childhood, I have experienced a strong attraction to males, and this attraction has not ever really gone away. Unlike many men with SSA, I am also attracted to women, most particularly to my wife.
When I married my wife, I was in a place of great freedom, in terms of sexual sin. I was open with her about my attractions and my past, of course. Nevertheless, only three people (immediate family members) besides her knew my story, since SSA is most definitely a sinful disposition that loves to hide. Over time, little by little, I fell back into a pornography addiction after we were married. My wife knew something about this, but I only let her in partly. My attitudes toward myself became completely covered in shame.
Recently, God has been pulling me out of that mire. I’ve begun to pray for an hour daily, and spend time with my heavenly Father. (Men with SSA, in particular, need one-on-one time with their Dad!) I have come fully into the light with a number of brothers and sisters in Christ who are not my family members. It is SUCH a relief and a blessing that I don’t have to hide!
But, in some sense, I still do. Among single people, there are an increasing number of people with SSA who are fully open about their struggles and their commitment to live chaste lives. (I’m thinking of people like Wesley Hill and Eve Tushnet, among others). These people have helped to show me that an attraction is not shameful, that there’s nothing wrong with being openly broken. In the meantime, however, I find that our culture – even, to some extent, Catholic culture – has only one category for me: since I am married to a woman and attracted to men, I must be a closeted homosexual that is wreaking havoc on my wife and children.
This social judgment becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, I think. Society has a notion of you, and you live up to it.
But not when you have God’s light in your life. In God’s light, I have realized that my temptations are nothing to be ashamed of, and hiding them is just plain stupid. Ideally, I think, married men who struggle with same-sex attraction would be just as open with these struggles as married men who struggle with ogling women in advertisements. It’s not something you shout from street corners, but you would share it readily in the right circumstances.
As it is, I think there are testimonies out there from married men who struggled with SSA, but it’s always in the past tense: “I used to be attracted to men, but now my wife and I are the whole world to each other.” Yeah, right. (OK, maybe I’m cynical, but that just seems to neat and tidy an ending.)
I expect that some people will tell me something like this: Imagine you “went public” about this in some form, and your kids found out someday? Imagine how ashamed your wife and kids would feel to be associated with you? Do they deserve that shame?
But these objections miss the point! It’s not something to be ashamed of. It’s a temptation, like any other. Would you be ashamed if your children found out that you once wanted to shoplift something? That you once felt a strong urge to strangle a driver who cut you off? What’s the difference between these cases and SSA?
Thoughts?
If I were the wife of a man who informed me of his SSA, I would be crushed and hurt and I don’t see how the relationship could continue. Your wife must love you very much to have agreed to marry you when you had already revealed this to her. I do have a friend who’s sister recently divorced her husband because he likes to cross dress. I think that would bother me also. We all have our crosses to bear. I may not have SSA or like to cross dress, but I am not perfect and have my own cross to bear. Therefore you will have to do what you feel is right in your heart. The only advice I would give you would be to wait until your children are out of high school to reveal this to them, as they will ultimately carry a part of your cross with them, and high school is tough enough today, why make it more difficult for them. I’m sure they will still love you and always remember you will always be their daddy - nothing will ever change that.
God Bless you on your journey.
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peace2u2
Guest
I just keep thinking about your question…I guess because it is so complicated.
You state that SSA is a temptation and something a person shouldn’t be ashamed of…
Most temptations are something to be ashamed of.
Temptations like lust and masturbation and pornography certainly are not a temptation that I would want to reveal to my children, instead I would be asking God to send me His Holy Spirit to help me fight these temptations so that I may be worthy to stand in His Presence.
Jesus said to reconcile with your brother or sister before you worship, so you can offer a pure prayer.
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Prodigal_Son
Guest
Really? Was Jesus ashamed of his temptations? Was Paul?
Now, it is ordinary and proper for us to be ashamed of our sins. But then, the next time we are tempted, it is not helpful to feel ashamed until we have sinned. That is the work of the Evil One. It will cause us to already feel condemned even before we have fallen!
Well, the question is not whether I want to reveal these things to my children. Of course I don’t! The question is whether talking about these struggles would be beneficial, and to whom. That’s an important question – but notice that we can’t ask it until the shame is gone. Look, though, I don’t feel a need to blab about everything I’m not ashamed of.
As for a temptation to masturbation and pornography, there are segments of Christian culture that consider this “every man’s battle”. Their children are not scarred, I assure you – neither are they told at young ages.
I wouldn’t think about myself, for quite a while. I would just listen to her, and be there for her. When I did think of myself, it might seem a bit strange, I suppose. But look, I understand how a person might find women attractive, since I find them attractive myself. And I wouldn’t think that she wanted a woman to replace me.
Why? What does it change? I mean, I can see how sin changes things a great deal. But why does *attraction *change everything? It’s not like I was telling my wife I wasn’t attracted to her.
Thanks for your advice!
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CopticChristian
Guest
Thoughts…yes…I am a joyfully married Catholic man with an ever-increasing number of children. From childhood, I have experienced a strong attraction to males, and this attraction has not ever really gone away. Unlike many men with SSA, I am also attracted to women, most particularly to my wife.
But these objections miss the point! It’s not something to be ashamed of. It’s a temptation, like any other. Would you be ashamed if your children found out that you once wanted to shoplift something? That you once felt a strong urge to strangle a driver who cut you off? What’s the difference between these cases and SSA?
Thoughts?
First, after having read all the postings I have a few. First SSA is not a sin. So the question is should you be open about your struggles, your tempatations, your thoughts and desires?
Someone mentioned the 12 step religion of AA. This is a non-sequitor because the 12 step religion of AA is not concerned with struggles, temptations, thoughts and desires, rather actions or SIN. SSA is not sin and there is no relevance to the 12 step religion of AA that actually has a less than 5% success rate. There is a Protestant/Puritan overtone to this approach so that you become your behavior. We are not our thoughts, desires or our behaviors. The 12 step religion of AA brands you for life " Hi my name is Prodigal and I am a Whatever"…no you are not, you acted like or did things that caused you to have issues. So in the context of the 12 step religion of AA “Hi my name is Prodigal and I struggle with Whatever” does not compute. The 12 step religion of AA is for those desiring to abate and remedy an action not a desire or thought. If you have acted then that is another issue.
You have a desire to discuss this and I offer this.
I am sure you know what the Catechism says…
So what it is you are suggesting being public about is a tendency or desire.
This tendency may lead to actions tthat would include the above…and in summary the Catechism mentions chastity and sin…
The summary mentions nothing of tendencies or desires only the sins…
So that leads me to my next point…what would Jesus and Paul do…?
Why did you think of persecuting me, why did you have thoughts of persecuting me, why did you have a desire to persecute me? No, Why are you persecuting me?..actions, not tendencies, temptations, thoughts just deeds.
Next Paul talks of himself in time as follows:
None of these descriptors suggest thoughts, tendencies, temptations…just appearances by action or self belief. Are you any different and should we all not get to the point where we see ourselves as just another sinner?
In Romans Paul talks about the flesh, the desires to do what he wants but cannot and above says he struggled yet found strength. Are your struggles, my struggles any different?
and Christ too was tempted but did not sin. We see in the writings of those that sinned and in particular Paul what caused him to overcome any struggle, ie grace and the deisre to live for Christ.
Should you or I be any different?
I believe you have a desire to express your temptations and in doing so there is a cathartic effect and perhaps you should continue to do this in private in the confessional.
Imagine your parish priest, weekly speaking of all that they speak of and then telling the congregation weekly…I struggle with SSA or any other temptation for that matter.
Imagine the Bishop writing a teaching and discussing his struggle with SSA or any other temptation for that matter.
Imagine Pope Francis writing an encyclical and adding a struggle with SSA or any other tempation for that matter.
When I read encylicals I have to believe that the Pope is human and is tempted and yet all I see is teaching, strengthening, encouragement.
Go and do likewise.
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Ridgerunner
Guest
I’m inclined to agree with this.
Having said it, I will say that I have almost always thought of myself as a potential alcoholic. A number of my (Irish) ancestors were. I do recognize very clearly that I have the “wash down reflex” (an auxiliary body cooling mechanism) which people of Celtic descent tend to have and which at least one alcoholism institute says can be a predisposing factor to alcohol addiction. I do drink now and then, maybe one drink every three months. I’m not afraid of it on that kind of level. As I get older, I don’t even have the urge to inhale the first three beers anymore. As a young man, I did.
I have told my children that as a cautionary thing, because they might have the reflex themselves.
But that’s a physical thing. I would tell them if my family had a history of heart disease. If I had SSA, I don’t think I would tell them that. Children have to go through a gender identification firming process. A big part of that is identifying or contrasting with their parents. As a parent, I would never want to tell them gender identity is something built on shifting sands. Being their father, they might think that’s the nature of one’s masculinity or femininity; a shaky business, whereas it really and properly is not. If I had an inclination to beat my wife or to abuse children, I wouldn’t tell them that either, lest they think somehow that “it’s just part of being a man”.
When they learn of the existence of SSA, it’s better that they view it from afar and not be forced, by family relationships, to think of it as normal.
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Prodigal_Son
Guest
Slight nitpicky comment: Scripturally, we are defined by our behaviors (though I agree, not our desires). Adulterers are identified by that actions. Worshippers are identified by that action. The only way we get free of being identified by our sins is that we bring those sins to the feet of Christ, and receive forgiveness.
At His feet, the sinner is no longer identified by his sin.
But you seem to misunderstand my intention. When I was 13 years old, I did not know that I could receive help in the Christian community for my temptation and my sin. I felt irredeemable. If the gay pride movement had been around like it is now, I would have joined it – anything to escape the shame.
So I wonder, how are we witnessing to these SSA kids? They don’t see anyone who has successfully dealt with these temptations, because everyone who has done this is in hiding.
I don’t want a feeling of catharsis. I want the Church to be salt and light.
I think this would be beautiful. I know a priest who shared about his struggles with alcohol, and I thought that was beautiful.
Why would you be scandalized by these things? I’m not saying they are necessary, but I sure wouldn’t find them awful. Admitting temptation does not make people think that it’s OK to yield to temptation.
I think you might see more from Pope Francis, because sharing our brokenness can be encouraging. In fact, I think he *has *already shared a number of his own struggles with his flock, if you look closely. I know that he has admitted specific failings. I might check, and get back to you on this.
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Prodigal_Son
Guest
Coptic,
Sorry, I was remiss in not greeting you in my above post, and thanking you for your thoughtful feedback!
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Prodigal_Son
Guest
Hi Ridgerunner!
Don’t get me wrong: I do experience my attraction toward men, at some level, as a desire to be more manly. But I don’t feel like my masculinity is shaky.
As to whether they’ll think about it as normal, in this society, they will think about it as normal, whether I want them to or not. But this does not mean that they will think of it as good or right. Lying is normal, but not right. Watching edgy reality shows is normal, but not right.
I don’t mean to imply that I’m taking such a decision lightly – far from it! But I think that Christians *obviously *did not handle discipling people with SSA well for decades, and that’s part of the reason why we’re losing the culture war. Maybe we should change strategies? Maybe we should tell our stories about success against sin and not hide them?
Yes, usually it’s not necessary to share about our temptations, because nobody is saying that it’s fine to act on these temptations. But now there are voices shouting to young people with SSA that it’s OK to be indulge in gay sexuality, and we need for somebody to tell them that there is – realistically! – another way.
Personally, there’s no doubt I’d share this type of problem with my kids. My oldest is only seven, and already we talk about “Daddy’s bad habit”, by which my daughter means my tendency to get really angry.
I really don’t think you have an accurate sense of my life, in this comment. I don’t have any problem in gender identification. I am probably just as attracted to women as the average man, and I certainly have a lot of romantic and sexual chemistry with my wife. I don’t present as gay, at all. And young people in today’s society don’t associate homosexuality or bisexuality as feminine – I mean, some guys with SSA are effeminate, but that’s largely a stereotype.
Don’t get me wrong: I do experience my attraction toward men, at some level, as a desire to be more manly. But I don’t feel like my masculinity is shaky.
Well, look, of course, my kids would learn about SSA before I told them about mine. And it’s not some awful thing for them to learn about. Do we shudder when we tell kids that some people want to kill other people? No, kids can understand something like that. Is this really so much worse?
As to whether they’ll think about it as normal, in this society, they will think about it as normal, whether I want them to or not. But this does not mean that they will think of it as good or right. Lying is normal, but not right. Watching edgy reality shows is normal, but not right.
I don’t mean to imply that I’m taking such a decision lightly – far from it! But I think that Christians *obviously *did not handle discipling people with SSA well for decades, and that’s part of the reason why we’re losing the culture war. Maybe we should change strategies? Maybe we should tell our stories about success against sin and not hide them?
Yes, usually it’s not necessary to share about our temptations, because nobody is saying that it’s fine to act on these temptations. But now there are voices shouting to young people with SSA that it’s OK to be indulge in gay sexuality, and we need for somebody to tell them that there is – realistically! – another way.
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Prodigal_Son
Guest
I just came across the following article, “A different kind of coming out”, which may be of some interest:
christianitymagazine.co.uk/Browse%20By%20Category/features/A%20different%20kind%20of%20coming%20out.aspx
Some quotations from the article, that might be relevant to our discussion here…
christianitymagazine.co.uk/Browse%20By%20Category/features/A%20different%20kind%20of%20coming%20out.aspx
Some quotations from the article, that might be relevant to our discussion here…
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peace2u2
Guest
I really believe that this is the reason why people really need to discern what their vocation is - not everyone is called to be married and I’m starting to think that people who do have SSA are called to be single. I wonder if all those divorced people out there were called to remain single instead of marry?
Unfortunately, we live in a society that dictates that marriage and sex is the key to happiness. Boy, those that believe that are in for a big let down!
It will also be interesting in the next 30 years when we have some research and stats on those gay and lesbian marriages that end in divorce.
Unfortunately, we live in a society that dictates that marriage and sex is the key to happiness. Boy, those that believe that are in for a big let down!
It will also be interesting in the next 30 years when we have some research and stats on those gay and lesbian marriages that end in divorce.
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Prodigal_Son
Guest
I’m puzzled. Are you saying that it was a bad idea for me to get married? Despite the fact that my wife and I are living rewarding lives together, despite the fact that we have a wonderful sexual relationship, despite the fact that are kids are blessed to have a stable and loving family?
Are you still assuming my wife is crushed by knowing I also am attracted to men? I assure you, she is not. Would you like her to come on the forum, to reassure you?
Your post puzzles me, and kind of offends me. Can you explain your thinking more?
C
CopticChristian
Guest
I found something for you that I would hope others would propagate. It does not necessarily reflect what it is you want to speak of however it is a model for what you want to do. You may be able to ask if you can include your story as a seperate section under the testimonies, etc…see what you think…I’m puzzled. Are you saying that it was a bad idea for me to get married? Despite the fact that my wife and I are living rewarding lives together, despite the fact that we have a wonderful sexual relationship, despite the fact that are kids are blessed to have a stable and loving family?
Are you still assuming my wife is crushed by knowing I also am attracted to men? I assure you, she is not. Would you like her to come on the forum, to reassure you?
Your post puzzles me, and kind of offends me. Can you explain your thinking more?
voices-of-change.org/
If you click on the button “read our stories” and then “written testimonies” I cannot imagine that anyone would not allow you to write whatever you want to write as you have done here and be effective…
You may be able to find the audience you seek…
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