Married men with SSA - Should we be publicly open about it?

[SMGS127]

I found something for you that I would hope others would propagate. It does not necessarily reflect what it is you want to speak of however it is a model for what you want to do. You may be able to ask if you can include your story as a seperate section under the testimonies, etc…see what you think…

voices-of-change.org/

If you click on the button “read our stories” and then “written testimonies” I cannot imagine that anyone would not allow you to write whatever you want to write as you have done here and be effective…

You may be able to find the audience you seek…

Not to detract from the honesty and good will of your post, but I honestly don’t think anyone’s sexual orientation “changes.” Some people, like ProdigalSon, will have attraction to both sexes with one much stronger than the other for sure. In that sense, one can refrain from giving in to their natural urge to be with a member of the same sex if it’s stronger in order to live a Catholic life, either with someone of the opposite gender (if they have those attractions too) or not.

On the other hand, I also think that there are those who have such a small attraction to the opposite sex that they will never be able to date someone of the opposite sex and be happy (though I must say that, as a woman with relatively low levels of OSA and with very strong SSA, I can still enjoy relationships with men that I have no natural lust for because they know how to make me laugh, etc.). My point is that, if we go to the gay community and throw so-called “ex-gays” in their face (I prefer the phrase “I used to act on same-sex attractions”) and act like they can change their sexual orientation, they’ll look at you like you’re crazy, because some of them have likely been forced to try to do so by their parents to the effect of great psychological harm as kids. And then after that, they won’t listen to a thing you have to say.

With that said, I agree with your idea that he should post online anonymously with the support of his wife and in a way that his kids won’t see it randomly. What strikes me most about PS’s story is that he recognized his SSA were well stronger than his OSAs but chose to date women anyway. Emphasizing that the choice isn’t on the sexual orientation but rather the behavior, and explaining that gay Americans CAN live Catholic lives (and even married lives!), makes the message much easier on the ears of the LGBT community.

Don’t think I’m trying to be hard on you; I’m not. I just have been stonewalled by so many of my gay friends since converting specifically because they have personal experience with the “pray away the gay” Protestants and/or [even worse] Catholics who disrespect their dignity as humans by treating their sexual orientation as a permanent corruption that makes them a bad person for life, regardless if they act on their impulses or not. Speaking the same language as the very, very Puritanical Protestant sects will actually drive them deeper into sin. Believe me, I saw it firsthand every day of my life for the last year of my undergraduate.

Tl;dr: we need to emphasize proper behavior while also emphasizing that we will always love them, and that they do not need to have opposite sex attractions to be Catholic.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

I found something for you that I would hope others would propagate. It does not necessarily reflect what it is you want to speak of however it is a model for what you want to do. You may be able to ask if you can include your story as a seperate section under the testimonies, etc…see what you think…

voices-of-change.org/

If you click on the button “read our stories” and then “written testimonies” I cannot imagine that anyone would not allow you to write whatever you want to write as you have done here and be effective…

You may be able to find the audience you seek…

Thanks for the idea.

I especially liked the following line on the website, which resonates for me: “their same-sex attractions have provided a directional compass to assist them in meeting unfilled needs for same-sex attention, affirmation, and affection.” I don’t think this point can be emphasized enough.

I won’t be participating there, however, for a number of reasons. Although I do not disagree with the notion that sexual orientation might be changeable, I do not think that it is a good method of evangelizing gay and bisexual people to emphasize the notion of changing their attractions. Moreover, I haven’t had my attractions change, so participating there would be disingenuous. I was always attracted to women.

Here’s the message the ex-gay movement sends to gay people: we love you, but your life will be hollow and worthless unless you are attracted to the opposite sex like everybody else. This is a lie! You can live a rewarding and virtuous life while being exclusively SSA. Most gay people, at some level, like being gay. It is true that, at some point in their acceptance of Christianity, they need to be willing to give up “gayness” as a part of their identity. (That is, ask God to take away the temptation). But I don’t think we need to ask them to do that right away.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Not to detract from the honesty and good will of your post, but I honestly don’t think anyone’s sexual orientation “changes.”

I’m not sure. I do think that change is very rare, but God can do anything, and many people obviously claim to have experienced change.

My point is that, if we go to the gay community and throw so-called “ex-gays” in their face (I prefer the phrase “I used to act on same-sex attractions”) and act like they can change their sexual orientation, they’ll look at you like you’re crazy, because some of them have likely been forced to try to do so by their parents to the effect of great psychological harm as kids. And then after that, they won’t listen to a thing you have to say.

100% agreement here. :clapping:

With that said, I agree with your idea that he should post online anonymously with the support of his wife and in a way that his kids won’t see it randomly. What strikes me most about PS’s story is that he recognized his SSA were well stronger than his OSAs but chose to date women anyway. Emphasizing that the choice isn’t on the sexual orientation but rather the behavior, and explaining that gay Americans CAN live Catholic lives (and even married lives!), makes the message much easier on the ears of the LGBT community.

Well, yes, in their ears, I will be saying that I’m a gay-leaning bisexual who lived a rewarding monogamous life with a woman. That’s certainly not how I define myself, but whatever. So my message would be about Christianity, and following its precepts, not about homosexuality or changing orientation. And I think they would be able to respect that, even if they disagree.

Tl;dr: we need to emphasize proper behavior while also emphasizing that we will always love them, and that they do not need to have opposite sex attractions to be Catholic.

Preach it, sister!

 

[CopticChristian]

Some people, like ProdigalSon, will have attraction to both sexes with one much stronger than the other for sure. In that sense, one can refrain from giving in to their natural urge to be with a member of the same sex if it’s stronger in order to live a Catholic life, either with someone of the opposite gender (if they have those attractions too) or not.

On the other hand, I also think that there are those who have such a small attraction to the opposite sex that they will never be able to date someone of the opposite sex and be happy (though I must say that, as a woman with relatively low levels of OSA and with very strong SSA, I can still enjoy relationships with men that I have no natural lust for because they know how to make me laugh, etc.). My point is that, if we go to the gay community and throw so-called “ex-gays” in their face (I prefer the phrase “I used to act on same-sex attractions”) and act like they can change their sexual orientation, they’ll look at you like you’re crazy, because some of them have likely been forced to try to do so by their parents to the effect of great psychological harm as kids. And then after that, they won’t listen to a thing you have to say.

With that said, I agree with your idea that he should post online anonymously with the support of his wife and in a way that his kids won’t see it randomly. What strikes me most about PS’s story is that he recognized his SSA were well stronger than his OSAs but chose to date women anyway. Emphasizing that the choice isn’t on the sexual orientation but rather the behavior, and explaining that gay Americans CAN live Catholic lives (and even married lives!), makes the message much easier on the ears of the LGBT community.

Don’t think I’m trying to be hard on you; I’m not. I just have been stonewalled by so many of my gay friends since converting specifically because they have personal experience with the “pray away the gay” Protestants and/or [even worse] Catholics who disrespect their dignity as humans by treating their sexual orientation as a permanent corruption that makes them a bad person for life, regardless if they act on their impulses or not. Speaking the same language as the very, very Puritanical Protestant sects will actually drive them deeper into sin. Believe me, I saw it firsthand every day of my life for the last year of my undergraduate.

Tl;dr: we need to emphasize proper behavior while also emphasizing that we will always love them, and that they do not need to have opposite sex attractions to be Catholic.

Not to detract from the honesty and good will of your post, but I honestly don’t think anyone’s sexual orientation “changes.”

You have detracted from the honesty and good will of my post. I can forgive that. I have difficulty following your next notion…

Honestly…are you really being honest?

You don’t think anyone’s sexual orientation “changes”?

What is your critical number?

If you visit voices of change…see this…

The testimonials presented here are authentic Voices Of Change; men and women who have experienced authentic change in their sexual orientation.

Is it your honest thought that these people are lying?

When you click the button for the stories on the second page read this…

And so…here we are, represented by over a hundred (and increasing) authentic stories from men and women who have made lasting change in their sexualities through profound therapeutic experiences. Some of these stories also represent people of faith. We invite you to listen to them, walk with them, as they tell you what their personal experiences have been. Everyone of these testimonials represents someone who ultimately believed in themselves and who refused to be forced to believe other viewpoints concerning homosexuality that simply did not apply to them. We believe that true tolerance includes tolerance for all. There’s no shame in these stories, only real growth into true identity.

These are stated to be stories of people that made lasting changes, personal experiences, people that refused to believe viewpoints like yours…ie " I don’t think anyone’s sexual orientation changes"…what critical number do you need to change what you think? What does it take for you to accept that your honesty denies what these people say…?

You may consider reformulating your statement to be…

After reading these stories of people that say that they honestly changed their sexual orientation, it is my thought that they do not change however I have to believe that perhaps my thinking may need understanding in light of what I have read…

Honestly?

So then, so that I may learn and all may understand what is the basis for your thinking that sexual orientation does not change?

Is it Rational or Empirical and does it or does it not take into the accounts noted on “voices of change”…enlighten me and others.

 

[SMGS127]

I’m not sure. I do think that change is very rare, but God can do anything, and many people obviously claim to have experienced change.

Well yeah, but God has also cured many terminal illnesses. Should we start calling those malleable too? . I do agree with you that it can be done in rare cases, but we cannot expect anything of our Lord except that He will provide for us. We must never demand anything of Him.

Well, yes, in their ears, I will be saying that I’m a gay-leaning bisexual who lived a rewarding monogamous life with a woman. That’s certainly not how I define myself, but whatever. So my message would be about Christianity, and following its precepts, not about homosexuality or changing orientation. And I think they would be able to respect that, even if they disagree.

Yeah sorry, I meant how the gay community would see it, not necessarily how it really is or how you identify. But after all, isn’t this whole thread about helping the gay community realize the light of the Lord in the most efficacious way? So we need to play on their turf a little.

You have detracted from the honesty and good will of my post. I can forgive that. I have difficulty following your next notion…

I meant that I realized you have the full intentions of honesty and good will, and I recognize those, but honestly I think you’re quite wrong. I don’t think that detracts from your intentions at all.

Honestly…are you really being honest?

You don’t think anyone’s sexual orientation “changes”?

What is your critical number?

If you visit voices of change…see this…

Is it your honest thought that these people are lying?

When you click the button for the stories on the second page read this…

These are stated to be stories of people that made lasting changes, personal experiences, people that refused to believe viewpoints like yours…ie " I don’t think anyone’s sexual orientation changes"…what critical number do you need to change what you think? What does it take for you to accept that your honesty denies what these people say…?

Honestly? They’re probably bisexual men and women who have much stronger SSAs. Their stories I read as them celebrating God for allowing them to focus on the greater moral code over the greater lustful desire (as they should!)

If you’ve ever been in the gay community (which I’m guessing you haven’t), they actually discuss things like this all the time. Not necessarily ex-gays, but the idea whether sexual orientation is “movable” or not. Virtually everyone says no except for the bis and the “no labels” people. Why? Because many of them have tried, through prayer methods, self-help methods, or (extremely harmful) psychological so-called “conversion therapy” as children. We don’t know whether sexual orientation develops in early childhood or in the womb, but it’s pretty plain that it’s not fluid.

Again, we should not encourage gays to somehow ‘learn’ how to have OSAs. We should teach them that, as a Church, we respect their equal dignity as human beings, SSAs and all, and that we only ask them to follow the Lord by making their own version of a personal sacrifice, whether dating someone whom they have smallers OSAs for or even no OSAs for in the name of a vocational sacrifice for God, or entering into lifetime celibacy.

 

[CopticChristian]

SMGS127:
I am grieved and saddened by your response…I am doubly grieved that you did not address me directly rather you placed your response to me within a response to another…am I not worthy of your personal attention?

I offered this…

You may consider reformulating your statement to be…

After reading these stories of people that say that they honestly changed their sexual orientation, it is my thought that they do not change however I have to believe that perhaps my thinking may need understanding in light of what I have read…

Honestly?

So then, so that I may learn and all may understand what is the basis for your thinking that sexual orientation does not change?

Is it Rational or Empirical and does it or does it not take into the accounts noted on “voices of change”…enlighten me and others.

you give me this?

I meant that I realized you have the full intentions of honesty and good will, and I recognize those, but honestly I think you’re quite wrong. I don’t think that detracts from your intentions at all.

I asked you to enlighten me so that I may learn and asked you what the basis of your belief was and all you offer me is “I think you’re quite wrong”…not just wrong, but quite wrong, and you take no advantage of the opportunity to tell me on what basis.

You are wrong. Why? You offer no explanation as to what this is based on.

I find it somewhat disturbing that you then offer a probability. Did you read all the stories, watch all the video and listen?

Honestly? They’re probably bisexual men and women who have much stronger SSAs. Their stories I read as them celebrating God for allowing them to focus on the greater moral code over the greater lustful desire (as they should!)

I suggest you and others listen to the first video, it is a song of a man that says he has changed. It is moving. I then ask you and others to read the stories at random and see if they come up with as I did that many of these stories have nothing to do with God. Some do however not all do. Did you take the time to read, listen or watch the video? You are probably wrong and should spend some time reviewing what you did not see.

You then give your best attempt at support for your view. I asked if your opinion was based on Empiricism or Rationalism and clearly without providing any introduction to your thoughts it is clearly Empirical as seen here.

If you’ve ever been in the gay community (which I’m guessing you haven’t), they actually discuss things like this all the time. Not necessarily ex-gays, but the idea whether sexual orientation is “movable” or not. Virtually everyone says no except for the bis and the “no labels” people. Why? Because many of them have tried, through prayer methods, self-help methods, or (extremely harmful) psychological so-called “conversion therapy” as children. We don’t know whether sexual orientation develops in early childhood or in the womb, but it’s pretty plain that it’s not fluid.

Asking a question without giving me the opportunity to answer and then answering it yourself speaks poorly for an intellectually understandable reason for your opinion. This reminds me of the 12 step religion of AA. Only a drunk knows anything about drunks. Only an addict can understand an addict. Can’t you understand, addicts and alcoholics are diseased?

No they are not, that is the message that is spun in these communities as you point out, messages spun in communities however that does not translate to reality and what is true and known. It is only true for those that accept the disease model and that is not the universal truth.

Prove to me where the evidence for the extremely harmful psychological therapy resides and do not be tempted to provide the APA report, because it is no proof and in fact when SB-1172 in California was argued at the 9th Circuit court recently what was heard was silence in answer to the question….”where is the published data showing harm”, no evidence was offered…take some time to read the arguments in California, please do not propagate a lie.

Sexual orientation is certainly fluid and your stating that it is static bespeaks lack of knowledge of what is written by opponents and proponents of homosexuality. This simply is not true and you should spend some time learning more about what you do not know.

Again, we should not encourage gays to somehow ‘learn’ how to have OSAs. We should teach them that, as a Church, we respect their equal dignity as human beings, SSAs and all, and that we only ask them to follow the Lord by making their own version of a personal sacrifice, whether dating someone whom they have smallers OSAs for or even no OSAs for in the name of a vocational sacrifice for God, or entering into lifetime celibacy.

Again? Do you believe that you have proved something and made a point so as to be so condescending to say “again”? You have proved nothing and again suggests you know not what you think you have proved. You further your condemnation of lack of understanding by suggesting what “we” should do and what “we” should teach.

Spend some time learning about what it is you think you know about behavior and next time offered an opportunity to educate and enlighten, please take it seriously….I do….

 

[CopticChristian]

Well yeah, but God has also cured many terminal illnesses. Should we start calling those malleable too? . I do agree with you that it can be done in rare cases, but we cannot expect anything of our Lord except that He will provide for us. We must never demand anything of Him.

Yeah sorry, I meant how the gay community would see it, not necessarily how it really is or how you identify. But after all, isn’t this whole thread about helping the gay community realize the light of the Lord in the most efficacious way? So we need to play on their turf a little.

I meant that I realized you have the full intentions of honesty and good will, and I recognize those, but honestly I think you’re quite wrong. I don’t think that detracts from your intentions at all.

If you’ve ever been in the gay community (which I’m guessing you haven’t), they actually discuss things like this all the time. Not necessarily ex-gays, but the idea whether sexual orientation is “movable” or not. Virtually everyone says no except for the bis and the “no labels” people. Why? Because many of them have tried, through prayer methods, self-help methods, or (extremely harmful) psychological so-called “conversion therapy” as children. We don’t know whether sexual orientation develops in early childhood or in the womb, but it’s pretty plain that it’s not fluid.

Again, we should not encourage gays to somehow ‘learn’ how to have OSAs. We should teach them that, as a Church, we respect their equal dignity as human beings, SSAs and all, and that we only ask them to follow the Lord by making their own version of a personal sacrifice, whether dating someone whom they have smallers OSAs for or even no OSAs for in the name of a vocational sacrifice for God, or entering into lifetime celibacy.

as a final note check the therapist tab…

Listening to the Voices of Change
Robert L. Vazzo, M.M.F.T.
Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist

** This website is dedicated to the many men and women who are making (or have successfully made) the transition from homosexuality to heterosexuality. **Many others claim that change is impossible, that sexual orientation is fixed, and that these men and women are engaging in self-deception. Their stories, however, which come from a place of heartfelt examination of intense feelings and desires, show otherwise. The people who have written these stories do not believe that their homosexual feelings define them or their sexual identity; rather, for them, their same-sex attractions have provided a directional compass to assist them in meeting unfilled needs for same-sex attention, affirmation, and affection. For these individuals, homosexuality is not the equivalent of heterosexuality, but is instead an indicator of what they perceived has been missing in their lives.

Honestly? They’re probably bisexual men and women who have much stronger SSAs. Their stories I read as them celebrating God for allowing them to focus on the greater moral code over the greater lustful desire (as they should!)

Take notice that there are 5919 viewers of this thread and some may be looking for something, hoping for something, wondering about something…just take the time to think your response through in truth…

After spending some time with those that have changed realize that you are Probably Wrong.

 

[MyPseudonym]

so I have to remember, none of us are sinless but Jesus.

And the Blessed Virgin Mary.

 

[SMGS127]

I am grieved and saddened by your response…I am doubly grieved that you did not address me directly rather you placed your response to me within a response to another…am I not worthy of your personal attention?

It’s…a forum. It’s generally considered good forum etiquette to not double or triple post when you can reply to all members in the same post.

I asked you to enlighten me so that I may learn and asked you what the basis of your belief was and all you offer me is “I think you’re quite wrong”…not just wrong, but quite wrong, and you take no advantage of the opportunity to tell me on what basis.

What on Earth is the difference between being “wrong” and “quite wrong?” If a woman tells you she’s “quite pregnant,” do you take that differently too? Some adjectives can’t be qualified.

Asking a question without giving me the opportunity to answer and then answering it yourself speaks poorly for an intellectually understandable reason for your opinion.

Again, this is a forum. Do you expect me to ask a one-line question, wait however many hours for you to see and respond to it, then post my follow-up? Instead, I can save everyone time and post both the question and follow-up, and allow you to answer at a later time. Why are you nitpicking over forum etiquette?

This reminds me of the 12 step religion of AA. Only a drunk knows anything about drunks. Only an addict can understand an addict. Can’t you understand, addicts and alcoholics are diseased?

I wouldn’t really call either alcoholism or homosexuality a disease. Maybe a disorder, but not a disease. Either way, you are right in a way. You can’t ever understand the unchangeable nature of sexual orientation because you [rightly] will never attempt to have your same-sex attractions be stronger than your opposite-sex attractions. Those of us who either have tried or who have witnessed others try know it isn’t possible. This isn’t some secular media lie; you should be focusing on telling gay kids correct behavior and not try to push conversion therapy, a therapy that does nothing but make gay kids feel unwelcome and push them into the very lifestyle and community you are trying to keep them out of!

No they are not, that is the message that is spun in these communities as you point out, messages spun in communities however that does not translate to reality and what is true and known.

The gay community does not attempt to keep anyone in it, as anyone who has experienced it knows. Everyone there chooses to be there, many times because the community is the only place where they can talk about having same-sex attractions without being told they need to figure out how to like the opposite sex. I have been a part of at least four gay communities. Each one encouraged empirical discussion, no one was left out of the conversation, and the near-universal consensus was a static orientation.

Prove to me where the evidence for the extremely harmful psychological therapy resides and do not be tempted to provide the APA report, because it is no proof and in fact when SB-1172 in California was argued at the 9th Circuit court recently what was heard as silence was a question….”where is the published data showing harm”…please do not propagate a lie.

Not to pull the emotion card, but considering many kids who go through this therapy later commit suicide, and then that suicide rate is later used by Protestant groups to explain how people with SSA are inherently bad people, I wouldn’t be surprised to know there’s few empirical studies. Also, when you add in the high rate of abuse among kids in emotionally dependent relationships whose same-sex partner is literally the ONLY person they can talk to about their same-sex attractions, it’s not surprising that there’s a very small sample size. Add in the fact that BYU is rumored to have forcibly used electroshock therapy on their students in violation of law as late as the mid-2000s, and yes, it is extremely detrimental to children and in some cases physically scarring as well as emotionally scarring.

I repeat: anyone who has been in the gay community has seen the horrific secondary effects of these therapies firsthand. And their end result? Branding religions as “anti-gay kids,” “abusive,” “harmful,” etc. when they endorse these harmful policies. You literally throw gay kids out the door of the Church by hinging their welcome on their ability to change their sexual orientation! How do you not understand that that policy leads to them falling out of a state of chaste grace into a lifetime of sin more than the attractions themselves?

Again? Do you believe that you have proved something and made a point so as to be so condescending to say “again”? You have proved nothing and again suggests you know not what you think you have proved. You further your condemnation of lack of understanding by suggesting what “we” should do and what “we” should teach.

I said “again” because I made that point earlier in the thread. Stop reading deeper into what I say than is there; it’s somewhat irritating, to be honest.

Spend some time learning about what it is you think you know about behavior and next time offered an opportunity to educate and enlighten, please take it seriously….I do….

Maybe you should go to a homeless shelter known for gay children, especially gay Mormon children, and talk to kids there about their experiences with their families. That will do more for your “education and enlightenment” than I could ever say.

 

[SMGS127]

Take notice that there are 5919 viewers of this thread and some may be looking for something, hoping for something, wondering about something…just take the time to think your response through in truth…

Sorry to make a second post, but apparently there is a 6000-character limit to posts.

With that said, this post is about how best to bring gay kids and adults into the Church and how best to make them feel comfortable with the fact that they have same-sex attractions while understanding that it is immoral to act on them. Your idea would have any gay kid running off 10 miles away from you before you even said another word.

We need to encourage them that they are always God’s children and that He loves them, regardless of concupiscence, and we need to inform them that it IS concupiscence but that the concupiscence itself is not a sin. They can have solely same-sex attractions and still live entirely chaste, holy lives, and their attractions do not make them bad people, nor are their attractions bad for them to have if not acted upon or encouraged.

 

[CopticChristian]

It’s…a forum. It’s generally considered good forum etiquette to not double or triple post when you can reply to all members in the same post.

What on Earth is the difference between being “wrong” and “quite wrong?” If a woman tells you she’s “quite pregnant,” do you take that differently too? Some adjectives can’t be qualified.

Again, this is a forum. Do you expect me to ask a one-line question, wait however many hours for you to see and respond to it, then post my follow-up? Instead, I can save everyone time and post both the question and follow-up, and allow you to answer at a later time. Why are you nitpicking over forum etiquette?

I wouldn’t really call either alcoholism or homosexuality a disease. Maybe a disorder, but not a disease. Either way, you are right in a way. You can’t ever understand the unchangeable nature of sexual orientation because you [rightly] will never attempt to have your same-sex attractions be stronger than your opposite-sex attractions. Those of us who either have tried or who have witnessed others try know it isn’t possible. This isn’t some secular media lie; you should be focusing on telling gay kids correct behavior and not try to push conversion therapy, a therapy that does nothing but make gay kids feel unwelcome and push them into the very lifestyle and community you are trying to keep them out of!

The gay community does not attempt to keep anyone in it, as anyone who has experienced it knows. Everyone there chooses to be there, many times because the community is the only place where they can talk about having same-sex attractions without being told they need to figure out how to like the opposite sex. I have been a part of at least four gay communities. Each one encouraged empirical discussion, no one was left out of the conversation, and the near-universal consensus was a static orientation.

Also, when you add in the high rate of abuse among kids in emotionally dependent relationships whose same-sex partner is literally the ONLY person they can talk to about their same-sex attractions, it’s not surprising that there’s a very small sample size. Add in the fact that BYU is rumored to have forcibly used electroshock therapy on their students in violation of law as late as the mid-2000s, and yes, it is extremely detrimental to children and in some cases physically scarring as well as emotionally scarring.

I repeat: anyone who has been in the gay community has seen the horrific secondary effects of these therapies firsthand. And their end result? Branding religions as “anti-gay kids,” “abusive,” “harmful,” etc. when they endorse these harmful policies. You literally throw gay kids out the door of the Church by hinging their welcome on their ability to change their sexual orientation! How do you not understand that that policy leads to them falling out of a state of chaste grace into a lifetime of sin more than the attractions themselves?

I said “again” because I made that point earlier in the thread. Stop reading deeper into what I say than is there; it’s somewhat irritating, to be honest.

Maybe you should go to a homeless shelter known for gay children, especially gay Mormon children, and talk to kids there about their experiences with their families. That will do more for your “education and enlightenment” than I could ever say.

Please, support your notions with fact…

Not to pull the emotion card, but considering many kids who go through this therapy later commit suicide, and then that suicide rate is later used by Protestant groups to explain how people with SSA are inherently bad people, I wouldn’t be surprised to know there’s few empirical studies.

Where is the data that directly points to suicides in gays as a result of therapy. If you had read what is out there you would not say this. Well, suppose we throw in the “they are oppressed” and that is why they commit suicide…don’t bother…

Slaves, pre-Civil War
Jews in concentration camps
People in Jail

do not have a higher incidence of suicide when compared to the general population…

Your statements without facts is emotion unsupported by any data…what you have experienced in the gay community is what you experienced and nothing more. It does not relate to the reality that people are changing, voicing that change, and there is no published data that this is dangerous. What is dangerous is propagating propaganda without fact.

My reference to the disease model of addiction/alcohol is nothing more to a reference to a paradigm. If you grew up with this paradigm, believed this paradigm, had a problem with addiction and all you knew was what this paradigm offered…it does not equate to what is known about addiction…it only equates to what you know about the paradigm.

So, your experience in a gay community is an experience in a gay community with all the notions of essentialism, fixed behavior, oppression, suicide, etc…without realizing that this is what the paradigm offers…if this is all you know then this is all you know, just realize that it is not something to take to the bank and say…based on this “we should do this”…no, based on this we should understand that it is one side of a coin and experience that should be balanced with what is known and what is true. Sometimes experience coincides and sometimes it does not however to base any advice based on experience alone relates only to the person having the experience.

These experiences can be generalized when they are coupled with fact and then the advice based on Empiricism and Rationalism can provide guidance towards conduct.

Now, as it regards unnecessary words…someone can be…

dead
very dead
really dead
really, very dead…

dead is dead,

unless you know something I don’t know…

 

[Glad2behome]

There is so many posts that I can’t not read them all, so I am sorry that if I just repeated another post.

Firstly, since you are Married and the only person that should know, your Wife, then I would very selective of the people I tell. Secondly, pray the Rosary and ask the Most Holy Family for help! Thirdly, there is a group approved by the Holy See and the name of that group is called Courage. It minsters to persons with SSA. couragerc.net/

I also may add that is a possible that has nearly elusive SSA to fall in Love with one person of the opposite sex. Also, if you compare Alcoholism to SSA, then you most also agree that Alcoholism can never be cured(in earthy terms) the desire to drink will also be there. Always. We can’t have the attitude that persons with SSA that chose to live chase lives are somehow less then people with SSA that get married just becasue… Here are some quotes that any Traditional Catholic would love:
Pope John Paul II , Vita Consecrata, no. 32: “As a way of showing forth the Church’s holiness, it is to be recognized that the consecrated life, which mirrors Christ’s own way of life, has an objective superiority. Precisely for this reason, it is an especially rich manifestation of Gospel values and a more complete expression of the Church’s purpose, which is the sanctification of humanity. The consecrated life proclaims and in a certain way anticipates the future age, when the fullness of the Kingdom of Heaven, already present in its first fruits and in mystery,[62] will be achieved and when the children of the resurrection will take neither wife nor husband, but will be like the angels of God (cf. Mt. 22:30)”

Pope Pius XII, Sacra Virginitas, no. 32: “This doctrine of the excellence of virginity and of celibacy and of their superiority over the married state was, as we have already said, revealed by our Divine Redeemer and by the Apostle of the Gentiles; so too, it was solemnly defined as a dogma of divine faith by the holy council of Trent, and explained in the same way by all the holy Fathers and Doctors of the Church."

Council of Trent, pg. 225: “If anyone saith that the marriage state is to be preferred before the state of virginity, let him be anathema.” …] "writing to the Corinthians, [Paul] says: I would that all men were even as myself; that is, that all embrace the virtue of continence…A life of continence is to be desired by all.”

Catechism of the Catholic Church, p. 916: “The state of the consecrated life is thus one way of experiencing a “more intimate” consecration, rooted in Baptism and dedicated totally to God. In the consecrated life, Christ’s faithful, moved by the Holy Spirit, propose to follow Christ more nearly, to give themselves to God who is loved above all and, pursuing the perfection of charity in the service of the Kingdom, to signify and proclaim in the Church the glory of the world to come.”

I Corinthians Chp. VII: “It is a good thing for a man not to touch a woman. [v.1] Indeed, I wish that everyone were like I am [celibate]. [v.7] I should like you to be free from anxieties. An unmarried man is anxious about the things of the Lord; how he may please the Lord. But a married man is anxious about the things of the world; how he may please his wife, and he is divided. [v.32] Are you free of a wife? Then do not look for a wife. If you marry, however, you do not sin, nor does an unmarried woman sin if she marries; but such people will experience affliction in their earthly life, and I would like to spare you that.” [v.28] (see also Mark 12:18-27, Mtt 19:10-12, 2 Timothy Ch. 2:3)

I strongly agree with one poster that if you must tell other people, start out with small groups, like the ones Courage runs

Let us Pray:

O Most Holy Ghost,
I pray now, in name of Jesus for those with SSA, unmarried, married, chase and unchaste I pray to Most Holy Family to protect families with those that have persons with SSA. I ask you right now, to those with SSA that have not experience the love of Jesus Christ, the Love of Church and the Presence Holy Ghost to do so. I ask right now Lord, for those with SSA that are faithful to you and your Church to live in Pentecost everyday of their lives!

In Name of Jesus,
AMEN!!

 

[Glad2behome]

Sorry to make a second post, but apparently there is a 6000-character limit to posts.

With that said, this post is about how best to bring gay kids and adults into the Church and how best to make them feel comfortable with the fact that they have same-sex attractions while understanding that it is immoral to act on them. Your idea would have any gay kid running off 10 miles away from you before you even said another word.

We need to encourage them that they are always God’s children and that He loves them, regardless of concupiscence, and we need to inform them that it IS concupiscence but that the concupiscence itself is not a sin. They can have solely same-sex attractions and still live entirely chaste, holy lives, and their attractions do not make them bad people, nor are their attractions bad for them to have if not acted upon or encouraged.

Amen. REMEMBER ST. AUSTIN ALWAYS STRUGGLED WITH LUST FOR ALL HIS LIFE! His mother, Saint Monica did not reject her son and we must NEVER reject persons that struggle with SSA. The Catholic Church teaching is clear: Just having SSA is not a sin, but acting on SSA is a sin. Some on this thread have the Protestant view that just struggling with SSA is a sin.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

CopticChristian,

You have a different perspective than SMGS127, and I think there are some interesting points you are bringing up in your conversation with her. However, there is no way she can hear these points, because your tone is quite rude, and you appear to be passive aggressive and outright aggressive at times.

Moreover, your writing here seems to suggest that SMGS127 has some duty to you to support all her views with documentation. She has no such duty. She can say things as she sees it, and does not deserve to be ridiculed if she chooses to do so. This is not a court of law, and you have no right to be outraged if she does not look at every link in a website you have posted.

The point I am making here, in microcosm, is one of the points of this thread. The Truth does not change, but our methods of expressing the truth do sometimes need to change. Alienating gay people is not a way to bring them to the Truth. I’m sure you would say that you love gay people and long for their conversion. Well, if that’s the case, then I suppose the first gay person you would show love to is the one right in front of you, no?

But there is a gay person right in front of you, my brother. It’s SMGS127. What are you doing to show love to her?

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Not to pull the emotion card, but considering many kids who go through this therapy later commit suicide, and then that suicide rate is later used by Protestant groups to explain how people with SSA are inherently bad people, I wouldn’t be surprised to know there’s few empirical studies.

I’ve looked at a few studies about homosexuality and suicide, though I can’t put my finger right on them. I recall that the suicide rates for gay teenagers have stayed roughly steady throughout the last 30 years. It seems to me that the suicide rate has stayed fixed, despite the society growing in acceptance of people being gay. Why? I don’t know, but the most obvious answer would be something other than conversion therapy causing the suicides.

My gut feeling: the suicides are (often) caused by sin. (Or the sin contributes to a mental disorder that causes the suicide). Perhaps the sins associated with homosexuality are more likely than other sins to make people suicidal. Also, if conversion therapy were associated with suicide, I would guess that that would be on the front page of the New York Times. But I think the harms they allege are less concrete than suicide.

The only conversion association I’ve investigated in any detail is Joe Nicolosi’s NARTH. He appears to be relatively unconcerned with making SSA attractions disappear, and more concerned with helping men be honest and decent men. I don’t agree with all his emphases, but he’s not scarring anyone. I do think that the gay community’s attitude toward conversion therapy is based on fact, but these facts are exaggerated. (Just like anti-Catholic sentiment in the 1930s was based on some facts, but wildly exaggerated.)

Also, when you add in the high rate of abuse among kids in emotionally dependent relationships whose same-sex partner is literally the ONLY person they can talk to about their same-sex attractions, it’s not surprising that there’s a very small sample size. Add in the fact that BYU is rumored to have forcibly used electroshock therapy on their students in violation of law as late as the mid-2000s, and yes, it is extremely detrimental to children and in some cases physically scarring as well as emotionally scarring.

Well, obviously anything like that is awful, even if (and that’s a big if) the intentions were good.

And their end result? Branding religions as “anti-gay kids,” “abusive,” “harmful,” etc. when they endorse these harmful policies. You literally throw gay kids out the door of the Church by hinging their welcome on their ability to change their sexual orientation!

Wait, you mean churches can accept people in the door without insisting that they immediately stop loving sin?

What do you mean, that we should – gasp! – follow the example of Jesus?

Look, I think we can all agree here that, when we are perfected, we will not desire to sin. And that, until we are perfected, we should not encourage sin in ourselves or others. But to talk about homosexuality in the Church, in a way that makes homosexual people feel like we are trying to understand them and love them, is not to encourage sin. Would it be shocking for a pastor to say, “If you’re an alcoholic or a drug-addict, you’re in the right place, and we’re glad to see you.” Of course not. Why not treat homosexuals with the same respect?

 

[on_the_hill]

I’m married and don’t have SSA. So I can’t say if “we” should be publicly open, because there’s no “me” in that “we.” However, my short answer is: No.

Depends on what “public” is, though. March in a parade? No. Tell your friends and neighbors? No. Tell your spouse before you get married? Maybe. Depends on your relationship.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Depends on what “public” is, though. March in a parade? No. Tell your friends and neighbors? No. Tell your spouse before you get married? Maybe. Depends on your relationship.

Thanks for your advice!

But how exactly would it not be my wife’s right to know?

 

[on_the_hill]

Thanks for your advice!

But how exactly would it not be my wife’s right to know?

Well, my opinion is that we don’t have to share absolutely everything about everything in our lives. Some things are between you and God.

There are aspects of my wife’s life (particularly before we met) of which I am not privy, and same goes for my life.

If your SSA leads you to stray from faithfulness and fidelity, then she ought to know. If your SSA is something that you keep buried deep inside, then you need to work it out with God.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Well, my opinion is that we don’t have to share absolutely everything about everything in our lives. Some things are between you and God.

There are aspects of my wife’s life (particularly before we met) of which I am not privy, and same goes for my life.

If your SSA leads you to stray from faithfulness and fidelity, then she ought to know. If your SSA is something that you keep buried deep inside, then you need to work it out with God.

The more openly I have talked with my wife about my own “personal” problems, the more intimate and passionate our relationship has become. Intimacy is self-revelation. So it would be VERY hard to convince me that a husband should hide this sort of thing from his wife.

I mean, I can see leaving out details, but leaving out the “detail” that I’m sexually attracted to men?

 

[on_the_hill]

I mean, I can see leaving out details, but leaving out the “detail” that I’m sexually attracted to men?

But you didn’t hide it, did you? You revealed it to her, no?

I guess what I’m saying is there’s no rule (that I’m aware of) that says a person is *required *to open up completely. It might lead to wondrous intimacy for some people. I’m glad it improves your relationship.