Married people seeing singles as immature

[Xantippe]

This is sort of my approach as well. A lot of times it comes across as thoughtless more than deliberately rude. Usually it’s not directed at anyone, but more that sort of careless conversation that’s not taking into account who’s around (say, sitting at a table with three married grad students who are talking about the subject in complete oblivion).

They’re three MALE married grad students, right?

I’m sure they are learning a lot.

 

[DarkLight]

They’re three MALE married grad students, right?

I’m sure they are learning a lot.

2 male, 1 female (married to one of the males).

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Immaturity does not imply any of the things you mentioned, either - there are plenty of smart, socially adept, immature people. What makes them immature is that they are still in the me-focused nature of childhood.

So basically, the most mature person in the world is a doormat? Because, you know, being for myself automatically makes me a childish, selfish brat.

You’re right that this isn’t just about chastity. It’s the fact that so many people attach so many different labels to the word ‘maturity.’ Chastity is, in fact, a tip of yet another iceberg I have seen the Church in danger of crashing into without thinking.

Has it ever occurred to you that you can meet a sexually pure mind that’s still foolishly immature?

I have.

If a man wants to use women’s bodies for pleasure, with no consideration for the women’s physical or psychological well-being, and with no consideration for potential children’s welfare, and if he chooses to spend his abundant free time and financial resources on selfish amusements while complaining about why everybody else doesn’t cater to all of his needs, why yes, that does make him a less developed human being than a responsible, loving, capable father of a family who lives a life of devoted service to others.

The fact that you immediately leap from desire for sexual pleasure to illogical selfishness is exactly what’s wrong with what the Church brands as ‘moral reasoning.’ Just because I take interest in casual sex and explore alternative viewpoints automatically means I’m going to be second-best to the overworked janitor whose a father of five. Never mind the fact that I could still make the case that I’ve done more for myself and others compared to someone who blindly slaves himself away for a family he couldn’t afford.

And then you’ll make the case that it may not be as simple as that but who was it who first claimed that it wasn’t a tricky question? You.

Honestly, wasn’t this the sort of condescension that the OP describes? Because I’m single and want to pursue my whims automatically means I’m the fool and you’re Gandalf?

The truth is that it is a tricky question and I am tired of the faithful oversimplifying an understanding of maturity when it’s nothing more than a facade for their own moral standards. When I read about the occasional Catholic whining about how the world is full of immature, pleasure-seeking brats, do you really call that person mature?

Not according to my friends.

They styled themselves as more mature than me back then (and yes, I was that kind of ‘moral’ Catholic championed in these boards). So to the next person who thinks their fidelity to their family puts them on a higher pedestal above mine, I can only say:

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[DarkLight]

You know what? This is a thread for chaste single Catholics talking about being seen as immature based on false assumptions. I’ve had too many threads on this board hijacked already to where I don’t actually get answers because everyone’s spending their time on one person saying outrageous things.

You want to talk about how you should be able to ignore church teaching and still be able to be seen as mature by Catholics who hold to that teaching, start your own thread. No one’s forcing you to agree with them. What we’re asking you to do is not go onto a CATHOLIC forum and champion how living according to Church teaching is bad on the threads of those who are trying their best to live it out.

 

[Xantippe]

The fact that you immediately leap from desire for sexual pleasure to illogical selfishness is exactly what’s wrong with what the Church brands as ‘moral reasoning.’ Just because I take interest in casual sex and explore alternative viewpoints automatically means I’m going to be second-best to the overworked janitor whose a father of five.

**Damn straight. **

Never mind the fact that I could still make the case that I’ve done more for myself and others compared to someone who blindly slaves himself away for a family he couldn’t afford.

**You could make that case, but you haven’t.

Currently, you’re wasting a lot of perfectly good pixels.
**

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

You want to talk about how you should be able to ignore church teaching and still be able to be seen as mature by Catholics who hold to that teaching, start your own thread.

But that’s not what I’m talking about.

You could make that case, but you haven’t.

Currently, you’re wasting a lot of perfectly good pixels.

And this is a mature response, how?

Really, it’s like you’re begging me to make the additional case of how championing Manong Juan makes you look immature. This is the guy whose only purpose in life seems to gripe, curse his work, and then drown the sorrows of fathering a family of five at the local KTV bar.

Oh but hey, he’s so faithful to his nagging wife and family. Yep. The epitome of Catholicism.

Give me the Addams family any day.

 

[Xantippe]

You know what? This is a thread for chaste single Catholics talking about being seen as immature based on false assumptions. I’ve had too many threads on this board hijacked already to where I don’t actually get answers because everyone’s spending their time on one person saying outrageous things.

You want to talk about how you should be able to ignore church teaching and still be able to be seen as mature by Catholics who hold to that teaching, start your own thread. No one’s forcing you to agree with them. What we’re asking you to do is not go onto a CATHOLIC forum and champion how living according to Church teaching is bad on the threads of those who are trying their best to live it out.

Back to your topic, your interlocutors are very young, aren’t they, or at least young for their age? They are learning a lot. Probably (although they may or may not not be sharing this information with you), via big newlywed fights.

I remember pulling a similar thing with a friend of mine with regard to kids. I had had a baby and my friend had not yet and wasn’t sure if she wanted one yet and I was going on about how unselfish being a parent made one (or some similar verbiage that I would now qualify quite a bit more). My friend was not impressed at the time, and yet she eventually joined the cult, too!

New motherhood is definitely a lot like joining a cult, and I suppose true love and early marriage is very similar. It’s like this big bubble that one lives in with one’s beloved, and there just isn’t room in there for other people.

The good news is that eventually people (at least the more sensible ones) do surface and are able to carry on normal relationships with people outside the cult.

Also, as you may have surmised, there’s a sort of selfishness that is unique to lovers and to parents. Lovers may forget the existence of other human beings. Parents may wind up believing (at least for a time) that the sun rises and sets in their children’s diapers and all other human beings are just satellites of their baby. To the person under that spell, it’s easy to falsely believe that one is being virtuous when one is, in fact, practicing a more complicated form of selfishness.

I would (once again) suggest C.S. Lewis’s The Four Loves as an antidote to these attitudes.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

To the person under that spell, it’s easy to falsely believe that one is being virtuous when one is, in fact, practicing a more complicated form of selfishness.

Perhaps selfishness and maturity should stop being so semantically intertwined (whether the selfishness was born under a religious, sexual, or familial context).

 

[Xantippe]

But that’s not what I’m talking about.

And this is a mature response, how?

Really, it’s like you’re begging me to make the additional case of how championing Manong Juan makes you look immature. This is the guy whose only purpose in life seems to gripe, curse his work, and then drown the sorrows of fathering a family of five at the local KTV bar.

Oh but hey, he’s so faithful to his nagging wife and family. Yep. The epitome of Catholicism.

Give me the Addams family any day.

I’m replying against my better judgment.

I have absolutely no idea who Manong Juan is and google isn’t helping much.

Here in the US, a janitor with a school job or similar could very well raise a family of five and do pretty well, with a little help from a wife.

jobs.aol.com/articles/2009/07/20/school-custodian-blue-collar-job-with-a-white-collar-salary/

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I’m replying against my better judgment.

I have absolutely no idea who Manong Juan is and google isn’t helping much.

That’s because Google isn’t the only source of information you can have on a Third World Filipino’s experience. When you see married people with a poorer lifestyle than you, complaining about their lot in life while carrying their fifth/sixth/seventh newborn, the American Catholic’s idea that they’re more mature than the single, middle-class BPO worker isn’t just absurd.

It’s downright insulting.

Because really, what is maturity? Is it a lack of selfishness? In my experience, the most unselfish people have been the worst to be around with. They’re always sighing and brooding about how lowly they are. Is it a lack of propriety? And yet, a dedication to propriety can also corrupt itself down to immature levels when it becomes impractical.

So really, what is it?

Because along with, I’m seeing a fair number of religious people ascribing certain values to maturity even though these values can very well be immature under a certain context.

 

[1ke]

This is sort of my approach as well. A lot of times it comes across as thoughtless more than deliberately rude. Usually it’s not directed at anyone, but more that sort of careless conversation that’s not taking into account who’s around (say, sitting at a table with three married grad students who are talking about the subject in complete oblivion).

These would be termed the “smug marrieds” of Bridget Jones’s Diary.

There are smug marrieds, and there are smug singles too. It’s a human character flaw, not really a factor of being married or single.

 

[Sarcelle]

Back to your topic, your interlocutors are very young, aren’t they, or at least young for their age? They are learning a lot. Probably (although they may or may not not be sharing this information with you), via big newlywed fights.

I remember pulling a similar thing with a friend of mine with regard to kids. I had had a baby and my friend had not yet and wasn’t sure if she wanted one yet and I was going on about how unselfish being a parent made one (or some similar verbiage that I would now qualify quite a bit more). My friend was not impressed at the time, and yet she eventually joined the cult, too!

New motherhood is definitely a lot like joining a cult, and I suppose true love and early marriage is very similar. It’s like this big bubble that one lives in with one’s beloved, and there just isn’t room in there for other people.

The good news is that eventually people (at least the more sensible ones) do surface and are able to carry on normal relationships with people outside the cult.

Also, as you may have surmised, there’s a sort of selfishness that is unique to lovers and to parents. Lovers may forget the existence of other human beings. Parents may wind up believing (at least for a time) that the sun rises and sets in their children’s diapers and all other human beings are just satellites of their baby. To the person under that spell, it’s easy to falsely believe that one is being virtuous when one is, in fact, practicing a more complicated form of selfishness.

I would (once again) suggest C.S. Lewis’s The Four Loves as an antidote to these attitudes.

I believe that the people you described as being in their own bubble of happiness and feeling particularly virtuous about it are more likely in the “honeymoon” stage.

 

[Sarcelle]

These would be termed the “smug marrieds” of Bridget Jones’s Diary.

There are smug marrieds, and there are smug singles too. It’s a human character flaw, not really a factor of being married or single.

In other words, pride, that most insidious of the deadly sins.

Yep it’s an equal opportunity employer.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I believe that the people you described as being in their own bubble of happiness and feeling particularly virtuous about it are more likely in the “honeymoon” stage.

You could also say the same virtue bubble is produced by other things besides marriage: Religion and faith as much as wealth and sexual promiscuity.

 

[Xantippe]

You could also say the same virtue bubble is produced by other things besides marriage: Religion and faith as much as wealth and sexual promiscuity.

Religious, yes, wealth, yes, but I don’t know that sexual promiscuity does produce a bubble of self-sufficiency and contentment. Being promiscuous is pretty much by definition a hand-to-mouth, hardscrabble existence–one is always on the prowl, never satisfied, always searching for the next one, never sure that there will be a next one. That’s the opposite of floating around in a bubble with everything you need in the bubble.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Being promiscuous is pretty much by definition a hand-to-mouth, hardscrabble existence–one is always on the prowl, never satisfied, always searching for the next one, never sure that there will be a next one. That’s the opposite of floating around in a bubble with everything you need in the bubble.

Okay, now who’s making this a chastity argument now? (Don’t look at me anymore, I mentioned three things that create the maturity bubble besides marriage. )

But in any case, you really need to re-assess your views of promiscuous people. You make it sound like as if people with less than religious/conservative attitude towards sex are all-too desperate nymphomaniacs. In my experience, that’s hardly the case.

Oddly enough, that’s quite similar to how married people view singles in the OP.

I know a lot of promiscuous people who are just regular human beings much like you and me. And ironically, it’s usually the religious types who complain about promiscuity being used by secular media as a mark of maturity. Go figure.

 

[DarkLight]

Because really, what is maturity? Is it a lack of selfishness? In my experience, the most unselfish people have been the worst to be around with. They’re always sighing and brooding about how lowly they are. Is it a lack of propriety? And yet, a dedication to propriety can also corrupt itself down to immature levels when it becomes impractical.

May I humbly suggest that you read Screwtape letters? There’s a couple that explain exactly this issue. I don’t really want to get into it here but I don’t think you’re understanding the virtues properly. Not everything that calls itself virtue is such. The pharisees also considered themselves paragons of virtue.

And while chastity is a virtue, it’s not the only virtue. I’ve known women among fundamentalism who were quite proud of their long skirts and oversized shirts and how they never held hands before marriage. Their actions in that one area did not make them overall mature Christians or even any more holy than a woman who dresses decently and avoids sexual immorality.

Back to your topic, your interlocutors are very young, aren’t they, or at least young for their age? They are learning a lot. Probably (although they may or may not not be sharing this information with you), via big newlywed fights.

Younger, yes - generally right out of college. Which I think may be part of it in general. In my own experience I found there was a lot of new things about maturity I learned the first time I had to step out onto my own. Most of us were supported by family through college and grad school is the first time you have to shoulder the sort of adult responsibilities that come with supporting yourself.

Also, I own every single C.S. Lewis book out there. They were actually my first exposure to Christianity outside the narrow bubble of independent baptist fundamentalism.

 

[starshiptrooper]

I think it’s a matter of Romanticism. Some people want so badly to be deep in love, and others feel it’s too emotionally painful to endure all those breakups until the right one comes along. Modern life has effectively promoted anti-romanticism and materialism, both of which are decreasing marriage and birth rates.

Let’s not forget that Western society has pretty much removed any incentive for men to get married due to no-fault divorce. 50% of all marriages end in divorce and about 70% of all divorces are initiated by women. When you get divorced, who usually pays alimony and child support and who usually gets custody of the kids?

So getting married for companionship is pointless as your marriage is equally likely to fail or succeed. Getting married to have kids is pointless as the ex-wife will most likely get custody of the kids. Besides, she can abort them if she feels like it and you have absolutely no say in the matter.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Not everything that calls itself virtue is such. The pharisees also considered themselves paragons of virtue.

But that’s exactly it! It’s this sense of superiority because one somehow fancies himself/herself as a paragon of just one single thing.

It’s why I’ve often doubted the merit of being called ‘mature’ when people ascribe certain attributes that are simply all-too few. For all we know, real maturity (whatever that is) could require hundreds, if not thousands of attributes (and not all at the same time too).

Their actions in that one area did not make them overall mature Christians or even any more holy than a woman who dresses decently and avoids sexual immorality.

Ah but why stop there? I’ve known people who’ve drunk and slept around but they are certainly way more mature in a lot of areas compared to people whose main routine in life is to simply declare how sinful and depraved everything is.

For me, having experienced life, work, and responsibility, I’ve found the expectation to fulfill someone’s (or a religion’s) definition of ‘mature’ as more of a stumbling block.

 

[Xantippe]

Let’s not forget that Western society has pretty much removed any incentive for men to get married due to no-fault divorce. 50% of all marriages end in divorce and about 70% of all divorces are initiated by women. When you get divorced, who usually pays alimony and child support and who usually gets custody of the kids?

So getting married for companionship is pointless as your marriage is equally likely to fail or succeed. Getting married to have kids is pointless as the ex-wife will most likely get custody of the kids. Besides, she can abort them if she feels like it and you have absolutely no say in the matter.

So, how common is abortion among married women?

I was just looking this up, and 85% of abortions are procured by unmarried women. It sounds like, if one doesn’t want one’s child aborted, it’s a much better bet to be married.