Married people seeing singles as immature

[EasterJoy]

No, I am simply pointing out that civil marriage is for masochistic men.

Actually, even civil marriage usually increases life expectancy and self-reported happiness in men. When it is bad, yes, a bad marriage can be very bad. It can be devastating to be in one and devastating to be ejected from one.

Even civil marriage isn’t always that way. Divorce is bad for you, and as likely to be devastating to men as to women, but excessive cynicism about marriage isn’t good for you, either. If your emotions surrounding attachment to a woman are insecure, that can unfortunately become a self-fulfilling prophesy against the survival of your marriage. An insecure attitude towards women can also defeat your chances at happiness, making it a brand of “masochism.” It is much healthier to have a more secure attitude towards marriage, even civil marriage, and to learn what factors give you the best chance for a fruitful marriage that will last. If you don’t happen to be a religious person, that will be in a civil marriage.

 

[Goldberry]

I’m so glad that I’m not the only one who has been frustrated with other people’s comments about this topic! I receive a lot of messages at my parish that suggest that I’m not responsible or a “real grown-up” because I’m single with no children. I’ve had married women tell me that they can’t be friends with me, and they hope that someday I get married so I can have a “real life!” Every time I volunteered to lead groups, I would get ignored and the job would go to a married couple. I finally gave up volunteering to be a RCIA leader.

Then if I ask my friends at church if they know any single Catholic guys I might like to meet, they either act like they feel sorry for me, or they act like I’m off the television show, “Sex and the City.” LOL! Like I’m some kind of desperate sex fiend.

My priest actually made some comments to suggest that maybe I am single because I slept with men who were interested in me, and so they did not want to marry me! (Actually, it was the opposite, I had a lot of men reject me because I wouldn’t sleep with them.)

Not too long ago, the “Women of Grace” Facebook page made a post that showed up on my news feed. It was a post that claimed that a scientific study has shown evidence that single, childless women are not as hard working, responsible or selfless as married women with children. What the heck was that about? And how in the world would you “prove” that? A lot of people agreed with the post and “liked” it. I was fuming all day.

I guess I just have the single Catholic blues!

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Then if I ask my friends at church if they know any single Catholic guys I might like to meet, they either act like they feel sorry for me, or they act like I’m off the television show, “Sex and the City.” LOL! Like I’m some kind of desperate sex fiend.

My priest actually made some comments to suggest that maybe I am single because I slept with men who were interested in me, and so they did not want to marry me! (Actually, it was the opposite, I had a lot of men reject me because I wouldn’t sleep with them.)

From my experience, it gets funnier when the same religious people scoff at the dating sites, criticize the dating culture in general with so much passion, and ultimately deprive the single of any resource that would help them out of their situation on the grounds that it’s going to turn them into sexually active sitcom characters.

You’d think they’d be making even just a tiny bit of applause when you decide to end your single status oh but instead they just think you look desperate and ‘lost to the world.’

It should hardly surprise anyone why I am so turned off by my own religion now.

 

[CatholicSheila]

When I was a single woman, I did two loads of laundry once a week. Now that I have a husband and three children, I do at least two loads every day.

A kitchen that is used by five people gets at least five times as dirty as a kitchen used by one person. The bathrooms get five times as dirty, too.

When your children are old enough, they can help.
You husband is already of an age he can help.

Can you honestly say that since you got married you are the only person who has ever done laundry?

Or only person to clean the kitchen?
Vacuum or mop the floor?
Clean the windows?

That’s all I said. Married people don’t do everything, all of the time. There’s two to share the load.

A kitchen that is used by five people gets at least five times as dirty as a kitchen used by one person. The bathrooms get five times as dirty, too.

I assure you, that even when you’re single you have to still clean the kitchen every day.

Unless someone is grub.

And presumably the single-income families can’t live there at all.

Can not afford to live where? In a mortgaged house? No, a lot of single income families can’t afford it for the same reason. Of course, they have the option of actually getting a second income. A single person doesn’t have that option.

If you mean in my city… government assistance. Single income families get a lot of it.

• Buying for one isn’t half the price of buying for two.

**
Freeze stuff when cooking “family-size” batches.

Five people do eat five times as much as a single person. They also have five times as many doctor bills and dentist’s bills.**

I didn’t say they didn’t eat five times as much. I said they don’t cost five times as much.

A home phone costs the same.
Internet costs the same.
Electricity isn’t 5 times as much.
A fridge isn’t 5 times as much.
Housing isn’t 5 times as much.

Doctors certainly aren’t 5 times as much for most. No one in my family pays to send their kids to the doctor. Most don’t pay for themselves either. Medication can be much cheaper as well, if they’re able to get onto a government health card.

For food… I could buy in bulk and freeze… what am I supposed to freeze it in? My last unit didn’t have anywhere to put a chest freezer. Not to mention you can’t freeze everything.

I could buy in bulk in dry foods… but my pantry was two shelves about 30 cm by 70 cm. Not a lot of space for buying in bulk. I did put a cupboard in my bathroom so I could buy non-food items in bulk. It wouldn’t be very hygienic to store extra food there however.

So yes, five people do not cost five times as much as one. I honestly don’t know a single family who would disagree with this.

**In a single-income family, if the main earner loses his or her job, then what? **

What I said: There isn’t a second person we can fall back on to go get a job.

There are two people who can go get a job. Someone to fall back on.

Also, in an area like yours in the US, the double-income families are paying the equivalent of a mortgage payment in daycare costs while children are small.

I am not in the US!

You have shown you don’t know what housing is like here. I highly doubt you know what child care is like here. Which btw is highly subsidized by the government. Someone has to be earning a very high wage before they lose subsidized childcare. I know one lady who is on over $150 000 and she is still getting subsidized for her childcare.

Next time you blast into someone, look at where they’re from. Do you think that it is possible that the situation where you live is different from the situation half way around the globe?

Also, it’s much easier to find a place for one person to stay than it is to find a place that can happily host four or five.

Only in the context that a house that houses 5 is also available to a single.

If you mean that there are more dwellings designed for single occupancy? Not even close. They’re primarily been developed in the last 10 years and the cost of those is more than renting a house in the suburbs. We are a very suburban city which means the vast majority of housing is designed for families and if someone is single, then they have to pay the same price.

• I have no one to lean on. If I’m sad, then I cry with my cat. If I’m stressed and I need to talk it through, there’s no one there. There is no one to love and no one to be loved by. Obviously there is extended family and friends, but it isn’t the same.

**That’s quite true, but only true for people in good marriages.

People in bad marriages cry by themselves and cry more.**

The vast majority of people are not in bad marriages. They may be in imperfect marriages, but that’s not the same. Most marriages do not end in divorce - given how easy divorce is these days, there is clearly something going right in the majority.

This thread is about what you say when someone claims you are immature because you are single. I am simply giving my answers - I explain that it isn’t all a bed of roses for us either. That we too have to be mature if we want to make it work.

I obviously offended you. I’m sorry, but my life isn’t all roses just because I’m single. Just as your life isn’t all hardship just because you are married with kids.

Some of the things that impact me are going to impact families. That doesn’t mean it isn’t real for me too.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Yeah if you’re at that level of silliness there’s really no point.

I’m thinking more of listening to married people happily chattering on about how marriage really makes you grow up and you just can’t be quite as mature if you don’t have another person in your life and don’t get the chance to go out partying all the time…

It’s especially annoying for those of us who have health problems. I would bet my schedule is as full as some of my married friends, just because I have to spend so much extra time on dealing with various problems.

Immature is definitely not the right word. It’s insulting and innacurate.

But I do think that there is a lot about marriage that you just don’t understand because you aren’t there yet. It really isn’t about the fullness of your schedule. Marriage doesn’t force you to “mature” quickly because you’re busy. But it does force you to be extremely flexible, it means that in every decision you make you have to consider another person, and it requires a lot of sacrifice. A while back you posted a thread where you argued that you should be able to have deep, intimate friendships with married men. Virtually every married person there disagreed, because they understand exactly what it takes for a marriage to work.

It isn’t a reflection on you. I don’t know what motherhood is really like, how it feels to be the victim of an accident, what going into a war zone takes, etc. I can read things and imagine-but I will never truly understand until I live it. Marriage is the same way, and it’s good to acknowledge that.

 

[DeniseNY]

If you bit your tongue and didn’t observe that Mother Teresa and the Pope probably also count as members of the human race, not to mention present company and the woman’s own children, you are a better person that I am.

Of course, you could also say, “Why? Because you think you were self-centered before you had children? Why, Becky, I wouldn’t be so hard on yourself!” (OK, I wouldn’t have the guts to say that unless she made some point in her own “defense” about how selfless motherhood had made her. I would let her keep digging herself deeper into that preposterous rhetorical hole for as long as she wanted to keep digging, I must admit it!..but then, I have a mean streak! )

I should have done that, but it was just the latest in a long of line of disparaging remarks, and I just didn’t have the energy to do it!

 

[Xantippe]

From my experience, it gets funnier when the same religious people scoff at the dating sites, criticize the dating culture in general with so much passion, and ultimately deprive the single of any resource that would help them out of their situation on the grounds that it’s going to turn them into sexually active sitcom characters.

You’d think they’d be making even just a tiny bit of applause when you decide to end your single status oh but instead they just think you look desperate and ‘lost to the world.’

It should hardly surprise anyone why I am so turned off by my own religion now.

I’m personally very dating friendly and online dating friendly (although I don’t approve of long “relationships” that don’t involve meeting the person before starting the clock) and I know a lot of CAFers feel the same way. In fact, quite a number of them met their spouses via online dating or even CAF. (There’s a recent courtship vs. dating thread that you might want to check out if you haven’t already.)

Given that, I don’t see why you can say, “religious people are putting me in a double bind!” or “religious people are putting me in a Catch-22!” when so many of us CAFers would cheer you on with regard to some gentlemanly dating.

You will find very few CAFers who will tell you to hide under a rock and wait for God to send you your spouse.

 

[casslean]

Having reviewed this whole thread, I think the answer is to gently point out to people that the lack of a given experience does not equate to immaturity, only inexperience.

We all have different experiences as we move through life, and they affect us all in different ways. Marriage brings with it a set of challenges that a single person has not encountered; they are inexperienced in those challenges. People who married at 20 or 25 have never faced the challenge of being a 30 year old still looking for a suitable partner in a society which is increasingly pressuring them to abandon their values. They have not faced the reality of wondering if the clock will run out before they get to fulfill their role as a parent (because we have biological realities to consider). They have not faced the question of “What if never?” Those are challenges they have not faced; they are inexperienced in that life.

Sometimes it can be difficult to see things outside our own perspective. This is a conversation which, I believe, needs to acknowledge that both sides have blindnesses as to what the others face.

 

[Xantippe]

Immature is definitely not the right word. It’s insulting and innacurate.

But I do think that there is a lot about marriage that you just don’t understand because you aren’t there yet. It really isn’t about the fullness of your schedule. Marriage doesn’t force you to “mature” quickly because you’re busy. But it does force you to be extremely flexible, it means that in every decision you make you have to consider another person, and it requires a lot of sacrifice. A while back you posted a thread where you argued that you should be able to have deep, intimate friendships with married men. Virtually every married person there disagreed, because they understand exactly what it takes for a marriage to work.

It isn’t a reflection on you. I don’t know what motherhood is really like, how it feels to be the victim of an accident, what going into a war zone takes, etc. I can read things and imagine-but I will never truly understand until I live it. Marriage is the same way, and it’s good to acknowledge that.

Yes. One of the sacrifices that good married people make is not having deep, solo conversations and relationships with single persons of the opposite sex.

They also can’t (or shouldn’t!) dispose of their time or family resources without a talk with their spouse. I get approval from my husband before I spend any sum that would affect the agreed-upon monthly budget and if I so much as want a bath in the evening, I clear it with him and make sure that he is able to take care of the toddler while I do so. We agree on every child’s activity before starting (as each involves a substantial investment of time and money). Likewise, my husband clears any business trips with me before agreeing to them and he tells me about every work dinner well in advance. If he spends $40 on gas or actually any sum of money at all, he texts or orally communicates that to me so that I can record it in the family budget.

On the one hand, this system is much slower and more cumbersome than just making decisions on the fly and communicating them to the spouse later, but it saves a lot of the hard feelings you can see in the marriage questions on CAF. A lot of the people in the family forum run into problems because they do stuff and then tell their spouses afterward.

But let me tell you, it can be very difficult to persuade an adult of the opposite sex to spend money on something he or she does not believe in or understand. That alone is a lot of work and quite often literally impossible.

 

[Xantippe]

My priest actually made some comments to suggest that maybe I am single because I slept with men who were interested in me, and so they did not want to marry me! (Actually, it was the opposite, I had a lot of men reject me because I wouldn’t sleep with them.)

Did you set him straight? I would think that correcting that misunderstanding would be very helpful to your priest in his pastoral work.

 

[Faxero]

I’ve been in the presence of several people who have basically outright stated they don’t feel like unmarried people are as mature as married people. Basically the comment was that marriage is an essential part of maturity because you have to live and work around someone else, whereas a single person cares primarily about themselves.
As a single person, I naturally find the implications here rather frustrating. How should one respond to such things?

Anyways, the original question was how one ought to respond to such individuals or to such assertions in a discussion, as a single person.
Any ideas?

When speaking to such folks, acknowledge that there are temporal and spiritual benefits to both the single and married life. Using this tactic will prove your point without making them think that you are downgrading the benefits of marriage.

For example, married persons live 10-15 years longer on average than single persons. This emphasizes the natural compatibility between men and women.

Nevertheless, it’s possible to live a fulfilling life without this connective activity. Look at Jesus Christ. Is he immature and selfish?

Anyone who says that singles are naturally more immature than married persons is sadly talking smack against Christ himself.

Some might tell you: “Well he’s God.”

Wrong! He was fully God and fully human.

They might counter: “He never had sexual desires.”

This counter would win them the argument, but since they hold such silly beliefs, they shouldn’t be smart enough to win anyway, right? :whacky:

they don’t feel like unmarried people are as mature as married people. Basically the comment was that marriage is an essential part of maturity because you have to live and work around someone else

This argument is **easily **debunked by the average household life. Even before one gets married, he or she works with and around other persons, such as siblings, parents, and the visiting Grandparents.

Also, school life. Talking to teachers and classmates, joint projects, joining student clubs such as chess club and student representative bodies, all provide human beings plenty of opportunities to live and work with and around others.

Ignore it.

It’s not the same thing, but this made me think of a comment a “friend” of mine made to me once. She said that she wasn’t “part of the human race” until she had children. I guess that makes me a cocker spaniel because I have no children?

Sometimes it’s not worth the time or effort to engage in a debate with someone with such silly ideas.

That statement is most likely just a hyperbole. Don’t worry about it.

Having reviewed this whole thread, I think the answer is to gently point out to people that the lack of a given experience does not equate to immaturity, only inexperience.

:yup:

 

[Xantippe]

Catholic Sheila,

Apologies in advance, because this is going to be long. It’s just something I’ve thought a lot about and have had a lot of experience with, moving from being a single gal to a newlywed to a mother of a single child and then the mother of a toddler and a baby and then the mother of two school age kids and then the mother of two school age kids and a much younger child (my kids are currently 12, 9 and 2). I’ve covered just about all the standard phases (or something very close to it), except for empty nesting. I’ve also discussed this with my husband.

Here are some thoughts:

1. My husband points out that if one has very low housekeeping standards, even the childless newlywed years may be more work than being single. My husband, for example, says that he never did any housecleaning when he lived by himself. I, on the other hand, cleaned more or less quarterly as a newlywed (generally in a huge mad rush just before having company), so marrying me meant a substantial increase in the amount of housework that he had to do.
2. A small child generates huge amounts of cleanup work throughout the day, even if they are unusually sweet and agreeable. Our toddler generates more work than any other member of the family. To begin with, she eats about 5 or 6 times a day, and almost every mealtime is pretty messy (unless we’re out an about and I can just brush crumbs on the grass). The table has to be cleaned up, the floor under the table has to be swept and/or wiped, the high chair needs to be wiped, splashes of pureed squash need to be wiped off cupboards (you would be surprised how far baby food splashes), the baby needs to be wiped (perhaps peanut butter needs to be removed from between the toes–not sure how that happens), dirty clothes need to be removed and placed in the laundry and clean clothes need to be put on the child (our baby dislikes bibs, unfortunately). One can cheat with neater and less nutritious food (I find packaged snack bars are very neat), but I find myself going through the process I just described 3 or 4 times a day.

That’s on the front end. On the back end, all of that nutritious food eventually comes out. Our toddler has usually about two spectacular dirty diapers every day (I blame all the fruits and veggies she eats), often first thing in the morning and after her nap. Unfortunately, this timing means that the poop has time to set and harden onto her skin, which can make removal difficult or (in the worst case scenario) mandate a bath. A fresh diaper needs to be put on. If there has been some leakage while she was in bed (or leakage is suspected), all of the sheets and blankets from the bed must go into the wash, as well as all of her stuffed animals. Then the mattress will be wiped down with disinfectant wipes. I put her somewhere safe, wash my hands carefully (gastrointestinal bugs are nasty and generate more laundry!) and put her into fresh clothes. If things are very bad, I may need to change clothes.

At some point, all of the dirty clothing and linens that I have mentioned (the tea towels from the feeding, the sheet, blankets, stuffed animals, and all the clothes) will need to be washed, dried, and (ideally) put away–although I must confess that laundry baskets are OK.

Once potty training time arrives, there will be yet more laundry (@#$%^&&* training pants!), plus it will be necessary to do a lot of carpet spot cleaning to neutralize the smell of urine. Oh, and the potties need to to be emptied into the toilet, wiped, and rinsed out for next time. (It’s been a while since I’ve potty trained anybody, so my memory of the mechanics is fuzzy.)

I will have more later.

 

[EasterJoy]

I should have done that, but it was just the latest in a long of line of disparaging remarks, and I just didn’t have the energy to do it!

That is for the better. The “smart” remark and the wise course of action are rarely the same thing! I think we often overestimate how well things would have gone if we had thought to say what blessedly came to mind when it was too late to say it. Another piece of evidence, perhaps, for the power of guardian angels!

 

[Sarcelle]

I’m so glad that I’m not the only one who has been frustrated with other people’s comments about this topic! I receive a lot of messages at my parish that suggest that I’m not responsible or a “real grown-up” because I’m single with no children. I’ve had married women tell me that they can’t be friends with me, and they hope that someday I get married so I can have a “real life!” Every time I volunteered to lead groups, I would get ignored and the job would go to a married couple. I finally gave up volunteering to be a RCIA leader.

Then if I ask my friends at church if they know any single Catholic guys I might like to meet, they either act like they feel sorry for me, or they act like I’m off the television show, “Sex and the City.” LOL! Like I’m some kind of desperate sex fiend.

My priest actually made some comments to suggest that maybe I am single because I slept with men who were interested in me, and so they did not want to marry me! (Actually, it was the opposite, I had a lot of men reject me because I wouldn’t sleep with them.)

Not too long ago, the “Women of Grace” Facebook page made a post that showed up on my news feed. It was a post that claimed that a scientific study has shown evidence that single, childless women are not as hard working, responsible or selfless as married women with children. What the heck was that about? And how in the world would you “prove” that? A lot of people agreed with the post and “liked” it. I was fuming all day.

I guess I just have the single Catholic blues!

FIrst if all I am sorry that you had to endure these unjust remarks.

Your experience will be an answer to the question of why single people.do not volunteer at church. They are actively discouraged by the smug married clique. I wish I could tell you smug married cliques are rare but there seems to be one in every parish.

Disclaimer: This is not to say that all married people are smug. Most are not but they do exist. Curiously I seem to encounter more of them among my agnostic acquaintances than among my Christian friends.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Immature is definitely not the right word. It’s insulting and innacurate.

But I do think that there is a lot about marriage that you just don’t understand because you aren’t there yet. It really isn’t about the fullness of your schedule. Marriage doesn’t force you to “mature” quickly because you’re busy. But it does force you to be extremely flexible, it means that in every decision you make you have to consider another person, and it requires a lot of sacrifice. A while back you posted a thread where you argued that you should be able to have deep, intimate friendships with married men. Virtually every married person there disagreed, because they understand exactly what it takes for a marriage to work.

It isn’t a reflection on you. I don’t know what motherhood is really like, how it feels to be the victim of an accident, what going into a war zone takes, etc. I can read things and imagine-but I will never truly understand until I live it. Marriage is the same way, and it’s good to acknowledge that.

I want to clarify my earlier post. This should not be taken to mean that married people are inherently more responsible. They aren’t. There are lots of very immature spouses (and parents!). But married people do have more responsibilities, whether they fulfill them or not. In fact, unlike any other responsibility in their lives, they have taken sacred vows to stick with this one for life. That’s a very heavy obligation that is really impossible to “get” until you’ve done it.

 

[casslean]

I want to clarify my earlier post. This should not be taken to mean that married people are inherently more responsible. They aren’t. There are lots of very immature spouses (and parents!). But married people do have more responsibilities, whether they fulfill them or not. In fact, unlike any other responsibility in their lives, they have taken sacred vows to stick with this one for life. That’s a very heavy obligation that is really impossible to “get” until you’ve done it.

Married people have different responsibilities from singles. Not more or less, just different.

It is really impossible to “get” being 30, unmarried, desperate to start a family, and constantly subject to a world that tells you your spiritual values are standing in the way of the marriage and family you want until you’ve done it either. It doesn’t make the singles’ journey more or less arduous, just different.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Married people have different responsibilities from singles. Not more or less, just different.

It is really impossible to “get” being 30, unmarried, desperate to start a family, and constantly subject to a world that tells you your spiritual values are standing in the way of the marriage and family you want until you’ve done it either. It doesn’t make the singles’ journey more or less arduous, just different.

A struggle does not equal a responsibility.

A married person has all of the commitments and obligations that a single person does (work, elderly parents, etc). But they also have their spouse’s life obligations to take care of (their aging parents, sibling’s weddings, etc). Not only that, but in addition to the responsibility to their partner, they also have to run every decision by that partner.

It doesn’t necessarily mean that being married is harder. But if you’re doing marriage correctly, you will have a lot more to put before your own needs and wants than a single person will. And unlike virtually every other responsibility, there is no getting out of marriage.

 

[Xantippe]

Here’s the continuation of my previous post to Catholic Sheila.

1. A spouse is not simply a robotic extension of ourselves. To get them to help us with housework, we often need to a) convince them that the work is necessary and b) once they have agreed (if they agree) make sure to follow through with them until the job is done. (I’m afraid that “b” is often called “nagging” by people on the receiving end of reminders.) In other words, a helping spouse’s assistance often requires a substantial output of effort by the requesting spouse. This is even more likely to be the case with children. Big kids can do a lot of work (mine are in charge of their rooms, putting clean sheets on their beds, cleaning up their stuff from shared spaces, occasional grocery unpacking, occasional help with the toddler, minor meal and snack preparation, plus odd jobs, which they are sometimes financially compensated for), but (and this is a huge caveat), there is substantial parental labor involved in supervising children and making sure that they do what they are supposed to. (Outside housework, the same principle applies to homework and music practice.) Neither spousal help nor kid help is “free.”
2. Until they are older teens, kids can’t legally or safely drive themselves anywhere. Hence, if a child needs the doctor, dentist, therapy, or to go to some other appointment, in nearly all of the US, the kids have to be driven by a parent. Hence, that part of the parenting job cannot be divvied up with the kids.
3. Current middle class social norms in the US are that pre-teen children must be under the care of an adult at all times and a lot of parents would hesitate to leave younger teens anywhere alone.
4. “Married people don’t do everything, all of the time. There’s two to share the load.”

But in a household with young children, the load is absolutely enormous. The labor involved in running a household with two adults, a toddler and a baby is far, far more than twice as much work as a single childless adult’s housework. Within that setting, there is childcare labor to be done as long as children are awake, far more cleaning work and far more laundry.

1. “I assure you, that even when you’re single you have to still clean the kitchen every day.”

I’ve been a single gal with a single gal kitchen, and I assure you that a kitchen with five people using it gets five times as dirty as one that one person uses.

1. Food for five does cost roughly five times as much as food for one.
2. Children are notorious for leaving faucets running and lights on in rooms that aren’t using. Each person in a household also consumes a proportionate amount of water, so yes, a family will pay much more for water than a single person. The continual running of a washer and dryer will be reflected in the water and electricity bill. Likewise, a larger house (which one needs for more people) costs more to heat and cool than a smaller home (all else being equal). A bigger family needs a bigger fridge (and perhaps a separate freezer). They’ll also need larger washers and will consume more laundry detergent, soap, toilet paper, paper towels, diapers (I spend probably about $60+ just on diapers, plus at least $10 a month on baby wipes), etc.
3. A more numerous family will (all things being equal) require more space than a single person. As a single, I did beautifully in an efficiency and a 1-bedroom apartment. As a newlywed, an efficiency was claustrophobic for two, but a 1-bedroom apartment was fine. With a boy and a girl, a three-bedroom rental house was about right. With a 12-year-old girl, 9-year-old boy and a 2-year-old girl, a 4-bedroom house works great for us (but is not strictly necessary). As our kids leave home, we won’t need as much space, and were I widowed and an empty nester, a one-bedroom apartment might be quite adequate again.

I’ll post and continue.

 

[casslean]

A struggle does not equal a responsibility.

A married person has all of the commitments and obligations that a single person does (work, elderly parents, etc). But they also have their spouse’s life obligations to take care of (their aging parents, sibling’s weddings, etc). Not only that, but in addition to the responsibility to their partner, they also have to run every decision by that partner.

It doesn’t necessarily mean that being married is harder. But if you’re doing marriage correctly, you will have a lot more to put before your own needs and wants than a single person will. And unlike virtually every other responsibility, there is no getting out of marriage.

All you’ve done is labelled it a “struggle” when it is an obligation to live a proper single life and a “responsibility” when it is an obligation to live a proper married life. Both are responsibilities to live your life properly, just with different challenges.

And I assure you, there is no “getting out of” living a chaste life before marriage, except to compromise your values.

 

[Xantippe]

I’m continuing my posts to Catholic Sheila.

1. In the US (which is where a lot of CAF-ers live), a household’s medical expenses will be proportionate to the number of members in the household, all else being equal. (With the understanding that 50-somethings and 60-somethings might easily have more medical expenses than a healthy young family with 6 kids.)

Our family is well-insured by US standards, but with one thing and another, the medical expense fairy has been hitting us very hard. Every time there’s an “event,” it’s $700-$1,000 US after insurance. We’ve had one of those probably every 2 or 3 months for the last year.

1. “What I said: There isn’t a second person we can fall back on to go get a job.”

Why is an at-home spouse who has no work history for the past 10-12 years more capable of getting a good-earning job than a single worker with a strong job history who just lost their job?

That doesn’t make a lot of sense. A long-term at home spouse without lucrative qualifications would be lucky to manage $10 US an hour in much of the US.

1. “Do you think that it is possible that the situation where you live is different from the situation half way around the globe?”

Look, you’re explaining your local conditions and I’m explaining our US local conditions.

1. When I said, “Also, it’s much easier to find a place for one person to stay than it is to find a place that can happily host four or five,” I was referring not to housing in general, but to a situation where either the single person or the single earner who is supporting a family of five loses their job or has some other setback. It is easier to find a relative or friend capable of hosting one person than it is to find a relative or friend who is able to house a family of four or five for any length of time.
2. “The vast majority of people are not in bad marriages. They may be in imperfect marriages, but that’s not the same. Most marriages do not end in divorce - given how easy divorce is these days, there is clearly something going right in the majority.”

The majority of people do not get divorced, but a large minority will eventually divorce. And even those who are married often feel a lack of emotional support within their marriages. (Check out some CAF marriage threads.)

1. “This thread is about what you say when someone claims you are immature because you are single. I am simply giving my answers - I explain that it isn’t all a bed of roses for us either. That we too have to be mature if we want to make it work.”

Right. I do feel, though, that there is immaturity (or at least ignorance) in not realizing that young families have substantially more work at home and substantially higher expenses than single people.

Apologies for the length–I am a huge personal finance nerd and wanted to be thorough.