Y
Young_Thinker
Guest
Usually, but there are also non-religious orders(O.F.S. or S.F.O., C.O., O.C.D.S., etc.).
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C
CWBetts
Guest
Those orders are religious, but they are lay religious.
Y
Young_Thinker
Guest
Yes.
C
CWBetts
Guest
Priests, by definition aren’t laymen, and therefore would not be part of those orders, at least as I understand it.
Y
Young_Thinker
Guest
Thank you; forgive me for writing that confusingly. However, with the exception of, say, the Oratorians(who, I believe, are technically an institute of apostolic life), secular orders are normally open to laymen and the ordained. For instance, there have been a no. of Popes who were Secular Franciscans.
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CWBetts
Guest
Forgive me if I have gotten this wrong. I am new to Catholicism, and lets just say it is much more nuanced than my previous faith traditions
O
Ocarm
Guest
Actually, no, They are secular institutes, or secular affiliates of religious institutes. Secular (diocesan) priests can be members of secular institutes, and frequently are. This is not the same as belonging to a religious institute (an order, congregation or federation/confederation) because no public vows are taken.
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Young_Thinker
Guest
It is all right, so I am (I just happen to read obsessively).
C
CWBetts
Guest
Lumen Gentium has a chapter each on clergy, lay, and religious, if you haven’t read it already
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Young_Thinker
Guest
Thank you, Mr. Betts. Currently, I am reading a fascinating book, The Big Book of Women Saints by Sarah Gellack.
J
JReducation
Guest
The other way around. They are secular, but not lay. They brothers and sisters in secular orders can be lay, deacons, priests, and bishops.
Pope Leo XIII, Pius X, Pius XII, John XXIII were Secular Franciscans. There are true Franciscans, but they are secular. However, they are not lay, because they are clerics.
Paul VI was a Secular Dominican. He was a true Dominican, but not a lay man. However, Martin De Porres, Rose of Lima and Catherine of Siena were also Secular Dominicans, but they were lay, because they were not ordained.
Secular means not a member of a religious community. Lay means not ordained.
Secular Orders cannot be lay, unless they limit admission to lay people. All secular orders admit clerics.
Among religious there are some religious orders that are lay, but not secular. The Capuchin Franciscans, the Franciscans of the Renewal, own community Franciscans Brothers of Penance. We all have priests, but they are kept in a minority. By controlling the number of men that we allow to be ordained and keeping the number of the lay brothers higher, we can retain our lay status in the Church. But we are not secular. We are consecrated religious in Solemn Vows. I believe that the Dominicans are going in the same direction. I have no formal evidence of that, except that their general council recently changed all of their titles from Father to Brother. We did that in my community too. Everyone is now Brother. You don’t now if any of us are priests until you see one of our brothers presiding at mass. The idea is to reinforce upon the laity the value of religious life and to avoid taking away from the religius life by confussing it with the priesthood. Because the priesthood is accidental to most religious communities, except those that were founded as communities of priests.
The Secular Orders were founded as communities of seculars, but these include ordained men. If you see a priest named Br. John Doe, OSF, he is a Franciscan religoius. If you meet Fr. John Doe, SFO, he is a Secular Franciscan.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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choy
Guest
Eastern Churches (both Catholic and Orthodox) have married priests
and in the history of the Church, there have been married bishops, even married popes
in fact, Paul even wrote in one of his epistles saying that bishops should be of one wife. while its usually misunderstood to mean that marriage is a prerequisite to being a bishop, it just means that those qualified to become bishops are not those who have multiple wives or have been remarried. so clearly there were married bishops during their time
so there is nothing in the Church that prevents someone who’s married from receiving Holy Orders. the only rule is, if you’ve received Holy Orders, you cannot marry anymore. but if you have married first, then you can receive Holy Orders.
and in the history of the Church, there have been married bishops, even married popes
in fact, Paul even wrote in one of his epistles saying that bishops should be of one wife. while its usually misunderstood to mean that marriage is a prerequisite to being a bishop, it just means that those qualified to become bishops are not those who have multiple wives or have been remarried. so clearly there were married bishops during their time
so there is nothing in the Church that prevents someone who’s married from receiving Holy Orders. the only rule is, if you’ve received Holy Orders, you cannot marry anymore. but if you have married first, then you can receive Holy Orders.
J
JReducation
Guest
Not all of them. Some are canonical order, even though they are secular and they make public profession of obedience.
For example, the Secular Franciscan Oder is a canonical order. There are three encylicals written on this subject. It is considered a canonical autonomous order because:
- They have their own rule of life and constitution.
- They have they own superior general, general council, provincial superiors and local superiors
- They are not connected to the friars, nuns or sisters of the Franciscan family. In fact, all Francisan Sisters came out of the Secular Franciscans. They all follow the Secular Franciscan Rule.
- They have a canonical novitiate.
- They are registered as an independent order in the Sacred Congregation for Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life.
- They are an order of Pontifical Right.
As you can see, they are part of the Franciscan family, but are not attached or dependent on the two other orders. They don’t even follow the same spirituality. They have their own. The rule of the friars is obedience. The rule of the nuns is poverty. The rule of the seculars is penance.
What we do have in common is that all the Ministers General form one council and they take turns serving as the Chair of that council. This council includes the Secular Franciscan Minister General. Currently there are five Ministers General on the council.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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JugglingReferee
Guest
Not true at all.
Priests in Eastern Catholic Churches are often married. I’m EC and my priest in my former city is among the best priests that I’ve ever had. He’s married with 4 children. A true testament to living two vocations to the fullest.
C
CWBetts
Guest
Thank you for the explanation, though I am still trying to figure it out.The other way around. They are secular, but not lay. They brothers and sisters in secular orders can be lay, deacons, priests, and bishops.
Pope Leo XIII, Pius X, Pius XII, John XXIII were Secular Franciscans. There are true Franciscans, but they are secular. However, they are not lay, because they are clerics.
Paul VI was a Secular Dominican. He was a true Dominican, but not a lay man. However, Martin De Porres, Rose of Lima and Catherine of Siena were also Secular Dominicans, but they were lay, because they were not ordained.
Secular means not a member of a religious community. Lay means not ordained.
Secular Orders cannot be lay, unless they limit admission to lay people. All secular orders admit clerics.
Among religious there are some religious orders that are lay, but not secular. The Capuchin Franciscans, the Franciscans of the Renewal, own community Franciscans Brothers of Penance. We all have priests, but they are kept in a minority. By controlling the number of men that we allow to be ordained and keeping the number of the lay brothers higher, we can retain our lay status in the Church. But we are not secular. We are consecrated religious in Solemn Vows. I believe that the Dominicans are going in the same direction. I have no formal evidence of that, except that their general council recently changed all of their titles from Father to Brother. We did that in my community too. Everyone is now Brother. You don’t now if any of us are priests until you see one of our brothers presiding at mass. The idea is to reinforce upon the laity the value of religious life and to avoid taking away from the religius life by confussing it with the priesthood. Because the priesthood is accidental to most religious communities, except those that were founded as communities of priests.
The Secular Orders were founded as communities of seculars, but these include ordained men. If you see a priest named Br. John Doe, OSF, he is a Franciscan religoius. If you meet Fr. John Doe, SFO, he is a Secular Franciscan.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
I am attracted to Franciscan spirituality, although I don’t feel the call to religious life. The distinction between religious orders and secular institutes are still somewhat of a mystery to me, but I am trying to read and learn more.
J
JReducation
Guest
I hate to confuse you more I’m afraid it can’t be helped. A secular institute and a secular order are not the same thing. Memebers of a secular institute can make private vows, usually live together, and united for the purpose of a specific mission or ministry. They are not canonical orders. They can be either lay or clerical. For example, the FSSP is a secular clerical institute. The SSPX also. The Maryknoll, the Daughters of Charity, the Society of Christ the King are a secular clerical institute. Secular Institutes are only for celibate men and women.Thank you for the explanation, though I am still trying to figure it out.
A secular orders have different rules about vows. I can speak about the Secular Franciscan Order (SFO) because I know them best. They make a public solemn vow to obey the rule of the Brothers and Sisters of Penance, to observe the Gospel in the manner of St. Francis and to work toward the perfection of charity until death. They do not live together, unless they want to do so. But they do have a fraternity life. They are in constant contact, do things together, meet monthly for business, have on-going Franciscan formation their entire life. They have a rule that was written just for them and approved by Pope Innocent III in 1221, so they are a canonical order. They have all of the other elements that the friars and the nuns have: Liturgy of the Hours, penance, detachment, obedience, chastity (according to their state in life, because some are married). Secular orders can be for celibate and married men and women.
What happens is that among Franciscans, if several seculars and friars join to live in community, they must be severed from the authority of their superiors and be erected with their own government. The new superior is still a successor of St. Francis, because he came from one of the Franciscan orders and we retain the status of an order, not a congregation. Among Franciscans the only congregations are those founded by women. Men can found order of either sex. But women cannot. When Mother Angelica founded the Missionaries of the Eternal Word, they were not allowed to join the Franciscan Order, because thy wee founded by a woman. They are Franciscans and follow the rule of St. Francis, just as I do, but they are not an order. The are a clerical association of the faithful. It may take years before they can become part of the Order, once there is enough distance between them and Mother, they can ask to be admitted into the Order as a group. That has happened. The reason for this is not a lack of charity. The reason is that the Franciscan Order has only one father and one mother, Francis and Clare. The Franciscans of the Eternal Word, rightfully acknowledge Mother Angelica as their spiritual mother, not St. Francis.
Francis wrote in his rule that only those who were subject to him and to his canonically elected successors could be part of the Order. Mother is one of his canonically elected successors. But the Church comes in with its own law about women being superiors over men. Francis would have allowed it, were it not because canon law forbids it. That’s why they have to put distance between them and Mother if they want to become part of the Franciscan Order and they have to attach themselves to one of the male Franciscan superiors.
The Missionary Brothers of Charity founded by Mother Teresa had to do the same thng. They had to give up their attachment to Mother Teresa and were given a Jesuit superior, Br. Andrew. That’s how they became an Institute of Pontifical Right. They claim Mother Teresa as the inspiration, but Brother Andrew as the legal founder. Once this was done, Mother Teresa had no say in their government, rules or ministry.
The same is being worked out with the Franciscans of the Eternal Word. Mother Angelica pulled out of their government in 1999. She no longer has any voice or vote in their community, not does her Vicar.
Now that you have all of this interesting information,
you can see that the distinctions are many. Religious institutes and secular orders come under institutes of consecrated life. Secular institutes and Associations of the Faithful, even if they are religious, come under societies of apostolic life. But in the end it’s not important which group you belong to. What is important is where you find that you can grow in the perfection of charity, because that is the universal call to all of us, the call to holiness. Go wherever you can grow in holiness.Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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