Married Popes

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Is it not true that the pope is the supreme bishop?
The qualfications for a bishop was that he was a married man who managed his own children well. See I Timothy 3:1-7.

Secondly, there is good evidence that Peter himself was married. Since Peter was a leader driectly chosen by Christ and was not disqualified for being a leader because he was married. This speaks volumes against the idea of a celibate leadership.

The Scripture says that a Bishop COULD be a married man, but only married once. It does not require him to be Married or have been Married. The Church speaking for Christ made celibacy a requirement, therefore Christ made that a requirement.

 

[fellowChristian]

1 Corinthians 7

Teaching on Marriage

1Now concerning the things about which you wrote, it is good for a man **not to **touch a woman.

2But because of immoralities, each man is to have his own wife, and each woman is to have her own husband.

6But this I say by way of concession, not of command.

**7Yet I wish that all men were even as I myself am **However, each man has his own gift from God, one in this manner, and another in that.

8But I say to the unmarried and to widows that it is good for them if they remain even as I.

9But if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

25Now concerning virgins I have no command of the Lord, but I give an opinion as one who by the mercy of the Lord is trustworthy.

26I think then that this is good in view of the present distress, that it is good for a man to remain as he is.

27Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be released. **Are you released from a wife? Do not seek a wife. **

28But if you marry, you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned. Yet such will have trouble in this life, and** I am trying to spare you**.

32But I want you to be free from concern. **One who is unmarried is concerned about the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord; **

33but one who is married is concerned about the things of the world, how he may please his wife,

34and his interests are divided. The woman who is unmarried, and the virgin, is concerned about the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and spirit; but one who is married is concerned about the things of the world, how she may please her husband.

35This I say for your own benefit; **not to put a restraint upon you, but to promote what is appropriate and to secure undistracted devotion to the Lord. **

40But in my opinion she is happier if she remains as she is; and I think that I also have the Spirit of God.

 

[fellowChristian]

**Matthew 19:11-12 **

11But He **said **to them, "Not all men can accept this statement, but only those to whom it has been given.

12"**For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother’s womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it." **

 

[fellowChristian]

Sorry I just keep finding scripture that I think pertains to the subject.

**Matthew 19:29 **
2"And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name’s sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life.

And since there is no marriage in heaven does it really matter?

**Matthew 22:30 **

"For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

Revelation 14:4 **
These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they have kept themselves chaste **These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb.

OOh I really like that one.

Like someone could grab a man off the street and force him to be a priest and promise to be celibate

 

[fellowChristian]

1 Tim. 3:2 - Paul instructs that bishops must be married only once. Many Protestants use this verse to prove that the Church’s celibacy law is in error. But they are mistaken because this verse refers to bishops that were widowers. Paul is instructing that these widowers could not remarry. The verse also refers to those bishops who were currently married. They also could not remarry (in the Catholic Church’s Eastern rite, priests are allowed to marry; celibacy is only a disciplinary rule for the clergy of the Roman rite). Therefore, this text has nothing to do with imposing a marriage requirement on becoming a bishop.

1 Tim. 4:3 - in this verse, Paul refers to deceitful doctrines that forbid marriage. Many non-Catholics also use this verse to impugn the Church’s practice of celibacy. This is entirely misguided because the Catholic Church (unlike many Protestant churches) exalts marriage to a sacrament. In fact, marriage is elevated to a sacrament, but consecrated virginity is not. The Church declares marriage sacred, covenantal and lifegiving. Paul is referring to doctrines that forbid marriage and other goods when done outside the teaching of Christ and for a lessor good. Celibacy is an act of giving up one good (marriage and children) for a greater good (complete spiritual union with God).

1 Tim. 5:9-12 - Paul recommends that older widows take a pledge of celibacy. This was the beginning of women religious orders.

from Scripture Catholic
scripturecatholic.com/the_priesthood.html#priesthood-IV

My question…

Why doesn’t anyone get worked up over women in religious orders?

My friend said it’s because those women chose to give their lives to God.

Didn’t the men who became priests do the same?

Catechism of the Catholic Church
**1599 **
In the Latin Church the sacrament of Holy Orders for the presbyterate is normally conferred only on candidates who are ready to **embrace celibacy freely **and who publicly manifest their intention of staying celibate for the love of God’s kingdom and the service of men.

usccb.org/catechism/text/pt2sect2chpt3.htm

 

[sires6]

Since there have been many married popes…when did the Church make a concrete decision on celibacy within the priesthood??? I know that there occasional converts that are allowed to stay married and be a priest, but when did celibacy become more than encouraged??? Also, was Peter married before or after Jesus made him an apostle???

Here is the plain unvarnished truth:

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cclergy/documents/rc_con_cclergy_doc_01011993_chisto_en.html

Straight from the “horses mouth” so to speak. Referring to celibacy in the Church:
The first legislative expression of this is found in the eastern councils of Ancyra (314), c. 10, and Neocaesarea (ca. 314-325)
As for married Popes and clergy:
It is clear from the New Testament (Mk 1:29-31; Mt 8:14-15; Lk 4:38-39; 1 Tim 3:2, 12; Tit 1:6) that at least the Apostle Peter had been married, and that bishops, presbyters and deacons of the Primitive Church were often family men. It is also clear from epigraphy, the testimony of the Fathers, synodal legislation, papal decretals and other sources that in the following centuries, a married clergy, in greater or lesser numbers was a normal feature of the life of the Church. Even married popes are known to us.1

(from this site a reference:1 For example Pope Hormisdas (514-23), father to Pope Silverius, his successor. There is much more but for the sake of brevity, I will say again, read the letter. Also note that this is written to Ukrainian Catholics who might or might not be influenced by the Eastern Orhtodox in their country who DO allow priestly marriage.

:twocents:

 

[justasking4]

The Scripture says that a Bishop COULD be a married man, but only married once. It does not require him to be Married or have been Married. The Church speaking for Christ made celibacy a requirement, therefore Christ made that a requirement.

If what you are saying is true i.e. “The Church speaking for Christ made celibacy a requirement, therefore Christ made that a requirement” then Christ is contradicting Himself since He had already spoken through the apostle Paul that a married man with children were qualified to lead. Now, its absurd to think Christ would contradict Himself. Rather it is a doctrine of men.

 

[clmowry]

Oh just stop it.

We can’t have scripture getting in the way of “just the verses I like” bible only interpretations.

Or can we?

Chuck

Sorry I just keep finding scripture that I think pertains to the subject.

**Matthew 19:29 **

2"And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name’s sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life.

And since there is no marriage in heaven does it really matter?

**Matthew 22:30 **

"For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

Revela**tion 14:4 **

These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they have** kept themselves chaste **These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb.

OOh I really like that one.

Like someone could grab a man off the street and force him to be a priest and promise to be celibate

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

If what you are saying is true i.e. “The Church speaking for Christ made celibacy a requirement, therefore Christ made that a requirement” then Christ is contradicting Himself since He had already spoken through the apostle Paul that a married man with children were qualified to lead. Now, its absurd to think Christ would contradict Himself. Rather it is a doctrine of men.

It’s NOT a Doctrine at all but a discipline, a LAW of the Church, set in place by the authority of binding and loosing granted to the Church.

 

[fellowChristian]

“If what you are saying is true i.e. “The Church speaking for Christ made celibacy a requirement, therefore Christ made that a requirement” then Christ is contradicting Himself since He had already spoken through the apostle Paul that a married man with children were qualified to lead. Now, its absurd to think Christ would contradict Himself. Rather it is a doctrine of men.”

Paul is instructing that these widowers could not** remarry**. The verse also refers to those bishops who were currently married. They also could not remarry (in the Catholic Church’s Eastern rite, priests are allowed to marry; celibacy is only a disciplinary rule for the clergy of the Roman rite). Therefore, this text has nothing to do with imposing a marriage requirement on becoming a bishop.

You know any time it looks like Scripture is contradicting itself its only because…

**2 Peter 3:16 **
as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are **some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. **

**Luke 10:16 **
16"The one who listens to you listens to Me, and the one who rejects you rejects Me; and he who rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me."

Jesus tells His apostles, “he who hears you, hears Me.” When we hear the bishops’ teaching on the faith, we hear Christ Himself.

Did you know if a Lutheran pastor who is married converts to Catholicism and wants to be a priest he can and he doesn’t have to give up his wife.

Remember when Jesus spoke to Peter? The bishops have the authority.

Matthew 16
19"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."

2 Timothy 2:3-4

3Suffer hardship with me, as a good soldier of Christ Jesus.

4No soldier in active service entangles himself in the affairs of everyday life, so that he may please the one who enlisted him as a soldier.

 

[Tom]

To answer your question the Scriptures rejects celibacy as a requirement for leadership.

Where specifically what verse or verses reject celibacy?

 

[Tom]

Is it not true that the pope is the supreme bishop?
The qualfications for a bishop was that he was a married man who managed his own children well. See I Timothy 3:1-7.

Negative, it is he be married not more than once, not that he be married.

 

[GreenLantern]

It’s NOT a Doctrine at all but a discipline, a LAW of the Church, set in place by the authority of binding and loosing granted to the Church.

Let us not forget that Eastern Catholics are under the authority of the Pope have married priests

 

[Tom]

Gods Word implies celibacy is preferred:
Mt 19, 6 Therefore now they are not two, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let no man put asunder. 7 They say to him: Why then did Moses command to give a bill of divorce, and to put away? 8 He saith to them: Because Moses by reason of the hardness of your heart permitted you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and he that shall marry her that is put away, committeth adultery. 10 His disciples say unto him: If the case of a man with his wife be so, it is not expedient to marry. 11 Who said to them: All men take not this word, but they to whom it is given. 12 For there are eunuchs, who were born so from their mother’s womb: and there are eunuchs, who were made so by men: and there are eunuchs, who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven. He that can take, let him take it.

 

[justasking4]

Tom;3747058]
Originally Posted by justasking4
To answer your question the Scriptures rejects celibacy as a requirement for leadership.

Where specifically what verse or verses reject celibacy?

Verses 2 i.e. the husband of one wife and verse 4 i.e. he manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity.

This is part of the criteria for a church leader. What the Catholic church has done is to disqualify married men for the reason they are married.

 

[justasking4]

Gods Word implies celibacy is preferred:
Mt 19, 6 Therefore now they are not two, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let no man put asunder. 7 They say to him: Why then did Moses command to give a bill of divorce, and to put away? 8 He saith to them: Because Moses by reason of the hardness of your heart permitted you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and he that shall marry her that is put away, committeth adultery. 10 His disciples say unto him: If the case of a man with his wife be so, it is not expedient to marry. 11 Who said to them: All men take not this word, but they to whom it is given. 12 For there are eunuchs, who were born so from their mother’s womb: and there are eunuchs, who were made so by men: and there are eunuchs, who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven. He that can take, let him take it.

Look at the context of this passage. Its not about church leadership but about relationships and their impact in the kingdom. If a person wants to be celibate to better pursue and serve in the kingdom then so be it. It is not a mandate that everyone must be celibate to serve or lead.

 

[justasking4]

Negative, it is he be married not more than once, not that he be married.

It could mean that or that he must not have multiple wives. Even so, this still does not support a mandatory celibate leadership in the church.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Let us not forget that Eastern Catholics are under the authority of the Pope have married priests

That is correct and the Canon Law of the Eastern Catholic Church allows for a Married man to be Ordained as a Deacon or Priest, but not a Bishop. It also does not allow an Ordained man to enter into a valid Marriage.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Is it true that the conclave could elect any Catholic man to be pope?

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Is it true that the conclave could elect any Catholic man to be pope?

The Holy Spirit could guide them to elect any male.