Married Priests

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news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100317/ap_on_re_eu/eu_church_abuse_celibacy

The above article is quite sad. That adulterous affairs can be ignored by some bishops. But…if Eastern Catholic Rites may have married priests (albeit…married before ordination) why can’t the Latin Rite? I’m not challenging the Pope…I’m just asking a question. Married Anglicans/jEpischopalean priests can become Catholic priests also if they convert.
 
Steve,
I think this issue is being discussed under celibacy et al.,
 
We actually have a married priest at my parish. As I understand it, celibacy is asked of men entering into the priesthood. However, it isn’t a requirement per se. Our priest was a Lutheran minister who became Catholic. He was ordained to the priesthood and is hoenstly one of the better and more devoted priests I have encountered. It’s just harder for a married man (especially if he has children) to serve in the priesthood with the level of devotion that is necessary. The strain on the marriage by such a devotion isn’t fair, and should only be allowed in extreme circumstances where it is very clear that the family won’t suffer.
 
We actually have a married priest at my parish. As I understand it, celibacy is asked of men entering into the priesthood. However, it isn’t a requirement per se. Our priest was a Lutheran minister who became Catholic. He was ordained to the priesthood and is hoenstly one of the better and more devoted priests I have encountered. It’s just harder for a married man (especially if he has children) to serve in the priesthood with the level of devotion that is necessary. The strain on the marriage by such a devotion isn’t fair, and should only be allowed in extreme circumstances where it is very clear that the family won’t suffer.
Would disagree. The strain of Celibacy when one is in daily contact with people in the community is far greater!
 
Would disagree. The strain of Celibacy when one is in daily contact with people in the community is far greater!
There is no such thing as a “strain of Celibacy” as all the promise of Celibacy is that one will not marry.

What you are speaking of is Chastity, living the sexual life within the confines of your life. If single then no sex, if married then just with your spouse.
 
There is no such thing as a “strain of Celibacy” as all the promise of Celibacy is that one will not marry.

What you are speaking of is Chastity, living the sexual life within the confines of your life. If single then no sex, if married then just with your spouse.
Try ‘indepth’ thinking before engaging the keyboard.
You sound to me like some Medieval Monk.
 
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Try ‘indepth’ thinking before engaging the keyboard.
You sound to me like some Medieval Monk.
I had assumed, given your constant references to Parkminster and Carthusian spirituality, that you were rather well disposed towards medieval monks. 🤷
 
Try ‘indepth’ thinking before engaging the keyboard.
You sound to me like some Medieval Monk.
Is there something you find wrong with ByzCath’s response, or do you just not like what you hear?
 
The expression I used, and quite common in the UK, refers to someone who has a tightly closed mind and ever open mouth’.
 
The expression I used, and quite common in the UK, refers to someone who has a tightly closed mind and ever open mouth’.
I think we all got that part. The question was was there a reason you said it?
 
Try ‘indepth’ thinking before engaging the keyboard.
You sound to me like some Medieval Monk.
The expression I used, and quite common in the UK, refers to someone who has a tightly closed mind and ever open mouth’.
I think we all got that part. The question was was there a reason you said it?
There are two assumptions that can be made.

Either he really does not know the difference between Celibacy and Chastity;

Main Entry: cel·i·ba·cy
Pronunciation: \ˈse-lə-bə-sē
Function: noun
Date: 1646

1 : the state of not being married
2 a : abstention from sexual intercourse b : abstention by vow from marriage

Main Entry: chas·ti·ty
Pronunciation: \ˈchas-tə-tē
Function: noun
Date: 13th century

1 : the quality or state of being chaste: as a : abstention from unlawful sexual intercourse b : abstention from all sexual intercourse c : purity in conduct and intention d : restraint and simplicity in design or expression
2 : personal integrity
Or that he does not agree with the Church’s Teaching that we are all called to live a chaste life according to our station in life.

As I stated, single - no sex, married - sex with spouse alone, that is it.

There can be no such thing as he stated, a “strain of Celibacy” as I do not see any strain in not getting married. The strain and struggle is with Chastity.

Also rather than actually comment on what I said he chose to resort to a childish ad hominem attack rather than deal with the issue.

He seems to have successfully derailed the conversation into his response rather than dealing with what I actually said.
 
Hope this isn’t derailing the topic again, but heres what I think:

The Latin Rite of the Church, as I understand it, demands celibacy of its priests, the other, Eastern Rites of the Church don’t have this demand.

Protestant ministers who converted to the Latin Rite, were for some reason ordained, when other men, baptized, confirmed, and married in the Latin Rite are refused ordination to the priesthood. Smacks of a double standard to me. Can they not accept their call to the life of a married lay man, or indeed a married deacon within the church?

When in was decided carte blanche to allow Anglicans into the Church , I got the notion, for some reason, that they would be getting their own rite, akin to the Eastern Rites of the Church, with their own Anglican Use liturgies and mass, their own clergy etc… but that seems not be the case. They are still Latin Rite…just with huge exceptions being made for a single group within the Church. Would the Vatican, for arguments sake, allow the Jesuits, for example, to marry?

I do not see how the Vatican can justly, consistentlty, and effectively argue the case for a celebate priesthood, when, lets face it, it chooses willy nilly, who to apply these demands to, and who not to.
 
There can be no such thing as he stated, a “strain of Celibacy” as I do not see any strain in not getting married. The strain and struggle is with Chastity.

.
I think reading seems to be your problem as you seem ‘hung up’ on what I have highlighted.
Try reading my initial comment again …‘slowly’ …in the right context…and you may savour the real meaning.
 
Hope this isn’t derailing the topic again, but heres what I think:

The Latin Rite of the Church, as I understand it, demands celibacy of its priests, the other, Eastern Rites of the Church don’t have this demand.

Protestant ministers who converted to the Latin Rite, were for some reason ordained, when other men, baptized, confirmed, and married in the Latin Rite are refused ordination to the priesthood. Smacks of a double standard to me. Can they not accept their call to the life of a married lay man, or indeed a married deacon within the church?

When in was decided carte blanche to allow Anglicans into the Church , I got the notion, for some reason, that they would be getting their own rite, akin to the Eastern Rites of the Church, with their own Anglican Use liturgies and mass, their own clergy etc… but that seems not be the case. They are still Latin Rite…just with huge exceptions being made for a single group within the Church. Would the Vatican, for arguments sake, allow the Jesuits, for example, to marry?

I do not see how the Vatican can justly, consistentlty, and effectively argue the case for a celebate priesthood, when, lets face it, it chooses willy nilly, who to apply these demands to, and who not to.
I feel that you have given a fair reflection on the state of the church today.
 
I think reading seems to be your problem as you seem ‘hung up’ on what I have highlighted.
Try reading my initial comment again …‘slowly’ …in the right context…and you may savour the real meaning.
So hateful.

I will pray for you.
 
Try ‘indepth’ thinking before engaging the keyboard.
You sound to me like some Medieval Monk.
I fail to see the reason for such a disrespectful remark. In fact, there is never a reason for disrespectful remarks.

That being said, what Brother said is an excellent summary of the theology of chastity. Is it medieval? Actually no. It goes back to the Old Testament. It predates the Middle Ages.

Sexual intercourse is the right of married persons of the opposite sex. No one else has this right.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
It’s not really that simple. Let’s take it in smaller pieces. Celibacy is actually older than Christianity.

Let’s look at the reasons for the differences between East and West. In the Western Church the discipline of celibacy became very common. We never had the large numbers of married men being ordained that the Eastern Churches had. There is no record of such a large married clergy. When speaking of the implementation of the discipline in the Western Church, many people have taken some liberty with Church history. By the time that the discipline becomes a canon, it is firmly in practice with a minority of married clergy.

In the Eastern Churches, very few priests were celibate. Most priests who were celibate joined monasteries. Theologically speaking, they are no longer secular men. They are consecrated religious. In the Eastern tradition to canonize celibacy would have been contrary to what had been the tradition of those Churches, which was not the case in the West. That’s how the two traditions developed.

In Mystical Theology there is a principle that God moves the soul closer to him using the ordinary means in the environment and in some cases he goes beyond those ordinary means through private revelations, such as those that are experienced by some mystics. Now, the point is that because celibacy has been part of the Western Church since the time of the Apostles, even though it was not a canonized discipline, God has used it to sanctify the cleric and draw him to himself. Celibacy is ordinary to the Western Church. It becomes part of the ordinary means of grace for the ordained.

Now we ask, why are the Anglicans and other Protestant clerics allowed to remain married and be ordained as Roman Rite Catholic priests. We go back to grace building on nature. Marriage and ministry have been the ordinary means that God has used to draw these men to him. The very fact that they are entering the Catholic Church tells us that God is drawing them to him. Therefore, the Church can justify ordaining these men in the Roman Rite, in their married state, because God has used their situation to call them.

In the case of those who are born into the Roman Rite and are called to the priesthood, God uses what is ordinary to us. The men who are called and respond to the call do not come from a culture with a married secular clergy. A married clergy is not ordinary to us. To change the discipline that has been part of the Western Church since the first generation of the Church is unreasonable. We would be adding something to the Western tradition that faded out and that we cannot justify adding.

St. Paul presented more arguments for celibacy than he did for marriage. St. Peter writes about the duties of spouses but does not include a ministerial role in that definition. We don’t examine this from a secular historical perspective, but from the perspective of mystical theology. What we see in the writings of Paul and Peter on the subjects of celibacy and marriage is that each of them is a self-sufficient means of grace. Therefore, each of them is also a self-sufficient path toward union between the soul and God, which is the ultimate desire of the soul. It then becomes clearer why the followers of Peter and Paul, who were in the West, gradually separate the two sacraments, not only in fact, which all of the Apostolic Churches do, but also in praxis.

From the earliest days the number of celibate men who become presbyters in the Roman Church starts to grow, because they seek to encounter Christ in the divine union between soul and eternity. This can be accomplished without marriage. Observe that they adopt celibacy for the good of their soul, not for practical reasons. Many people want to say that it is more practical for a priest to be celibate. That is true. But that was not the mindset of the early presbyters who adopted a celibate life. It was the fact that being a priest was a complete and self-sufficient means to salvation. If we lose sight of the mysticism behind the sacraments, then we lose sight of the fact that you don’t need both marriage and holy orders for salvation.

Remember that a man becomes a priest, first and foremost, because he believes that this is the means for the salvation of his soul. It is true that a priest serves the Church, cooperates in the salvation of souls by offering the sacrifice, blessing and absolving. But the primary reason must always be the salvation of one’s soul. Therefore, since the celibate state is ordinary in the West, we know that God will provide the necessary grace for salvation. It’s up to the individual to use that grace or lose it through sin. But that’s not God’s fault.

The ordination of the converts is an exception, not a willy nilly decision. It is really an act of mercy on the part of the Church. The Church understands that these men have been called to holiness within very unique circumstances. The Church is going to facilitate the on-going relationship with Christ, by allowing them to remain in their married and clerical state. The Church does not have to make this pastoral exception for those born into the Roman Rite, because this is an extraordinary pastoral provision. The Church is very careful to use extraordinary provisions only when they are necessary for the salvation of souls. The only argument that we could present to the Holy See for ordaining married men is that it is necessary for the salvation of their soul. The argument that this would increase the number of priests will not fly, because we do not ordain men to maintain the numbers. In other words there is no rule that says that we must have X number of priests. The rule is that we must have priests.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
It’s not really that simple. Let’s take it in smaller pieces. Celibacy is actually older than Christianity.

Let’s look at the reasons for the differences between East and West. In the Western Church the discipline of celibacy became very common. We never had the large numbers of married men being ordained that the Eastern Churches had. There is no record of such a large married clergy. When speaking of the implementation of the discipline in the Western Church, many people have taken some liberty with Church history. By the time that the discipline becomes a canon, it is firmly in practice with a minority of married clergy.

In the Eastern Churches, very few priests were celibate. Most priests who were celibate joined monasteries. Theologically speaking, they are no longer secular men. They are consecrated religious. In the Eastern tradition to canonize celibacy would have been contrary to what had been the tradition of those Churches, which was not the case in the West. That’s how the two traditions developed.

In Mystical Theology there is a principle that God moves the soul closer to him using the ordinary means in the environment and in some cases he goes beyond those ordinary means through private revelations, such as those that are experienced by some mystics. Now, the point is that because celibacy has been part of the Western Church since the time of the Apostles, even though it was not a canonized discipline, God has used it to sanctify the cleric and draw him to himself. Celibacy is ordinary to the Western Church. It becomes part of the ordinary means of grace for the ordained.

Now we ask, why are the Anglicans and other Protestant clerics allowed to remain married and be ordained as Roman Rite Catholic priests. We go back to grace building on nature. Marriage and ministry have been the ordinary means that God has used to draw these men to him. The very fact that they are entering the Catholic Church tells us that God is drawing them to him. Therefore, the Church can justify ordaining these men in the Roman Rite, in their married state, because God has used their situation to call them.

In the case of those who are born into the Roman Rite and are called to the priesthood, God uses what is ordinary to us. The men who are called and respond to the call do not come from a culture with a married secular clergy. A married clergy is not ordinary to us. To change the discipline that has been part of the Western Church since the first generation of the Church is unreasonable. We would be adding something to the Western tradition that faded out and that we cannot justify adding.

St. Paul presented more arguments for celibacy than he did for marriage. St. Peter writes about the duties of spouses but does not include a ministerial role in that definition. We don’t examine this from a secular historical perspective, but from the perspective of mystical theology. What we see in the writings of Paul and Peter on the subjects of celibacy and marriage is that each of them is a self-sufficient means of grace. Therefore, each of them is also a self-sufficient path toward union between the soul and God, which is the ultimate desire of the soul. It then becomes clearer why the followers of Peter and Paul, who were in the West, gradually separate the two sacraments, not only in fact, which all of the Apostolic Churches do, but also in praxis.

From the earliest days the number of celibate men who become presbyters in the Roman Church starts to grow, because they seek to encounter Christ in the divine union between soul and eternity. This can be accomplished without marriage. Observe that they adopt celibacy for the good of their soul, not for practical reasons. Many people want to say that it is more practical for a priest to be celibate. That is true. But that was not the mindset of the early presbyters who adopted a celibate life. It was the fact that being a priest was a complete and self-sufficient means to salvation. If we lose sight of the mysticism behind the sacraments, then we lose sight of the fact that you don’t need both marriage and holy orders for salvation.

Remember that a man becomes a priest, first and foremost, because he believes that this is the means for the salvation of his soul. It is true that a priest serves the Church, cooperates in the salvation of souls by offering the sacrifice, blessing and absolving. But the primary reason must always be the salvation of one’s soul. Therefore, since the celibate state is ordinary in the West, we know that God will provide the necessary grace for salvation. It’s up to the individual to use that grace or lose it through sin. But that’s not God’s fault.

The ordination of the converts is an exception, not a willy nilly decision. It is really an act of mercy on the part of the Church. The Church understands that these men have been called to holiness within very unique circumstances. The Church is going to facilitate the on-going relationship with Christ, by allowing them to remain in their married and clerical state. The Church does not have to make this pastoral exception for those born into the Roman Rite, because this is an extraordinary pastoral provision. The Church is very careful to use extraordinary provisions only when they are necessary for the salvation of souls. The only argument that we could present to the Holy See for ordaining married men is that it is necessary for the salvation of their soul. The argument that this would increase the number of priests will not fly, because we do not ordain men to maintain the numbers. In other words there is no rule that says that we must have X number of priests. The rule is that we must have priests.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Now this is interesting. I always thought your previous were just ‘warm ups’
 
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