Married Priests

[babochka]

I’ve heard this talked about Roman Catholic deacons. But the Orthodox are very strict about this and there are ancient canons that do not allow this. For the Orthodox, anyone ordained is free to marry/remarry. Just make sure that they are willing to give up their ministry because there is no way they will still be a bishop/priest/deacon/subdeacon after marriage.

I just had this discussion on Saturday with a Greek Orthodox priest. He confirmed that it is rare, but theoretically possible for a priest to be given permission to remarry and remain in priestly ministry.

 

[mparrot]

Is it really that rare in the United States for Eastern Church priests to be married? I attend a Ukranian Catholic Chuch and both the priests are married, and figured that was how it was through the rest of the country.

 

[Bballer32]

I actually just asked my priest this question what he thought about married priests. He was never against it being allowed in certain situations (e.g. Eastern Catholics, Protestant Minister converts) but he did make a good point on why he said a parish may not want a married priest. As he told me, he makes roughly $40,000 a year (then minus the tithes and donations) so a decent amount for a big parish. He then said “What if i was married? How much more money would need to be tithed to support my family?” Valid point.

He also said that the married priest has to be a Father before a Father. So, if he goes on vacation with his family or attends his daughters recital, how is he to be available?

Now, there will be people who will put situations with celibate priests and all that jazz but in all honesty I think that a celibate priesthood is probably going to be the best option. This does not mean i’m against it. I’m just saying it would be better for celibacy.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Is it really that rare in the United States for Eastern Church priests to be married? I attend a Ukranian Catholic Chuch and both the priests are married, and figured that was how it was through the rest of the country.

Depends where they were ordained. Priests of a certain age ordained in North America is probably celibate.

I just had this discussion on Saturday with a Greek Orthodox priest. He confirmed that it is rare, but theoretically possible for a priest to be given permission to remarry and remain in priestly ministry.

They would probably have to be deposed and then reinstated.

 

[5Loaves]

Also no new Anglican Catholic priests may be married when ordained, although there have been many converting married priests accepted.

Married men in the Ordinariate may be ordained to the priesthood on a case by case basis with the approval of the Holy Father.

The Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter → Ordinariate Questions & Answers → Can ordinariate priests marry?

With the exception of these former clergy, the discipline of a celibate clergy in the Roman Catholic Church, will, as a rule, be followed. However, the ordinary “may also petition the Roman Pontiff, as a derogation from canon 277, para 1, for the admission of married men to the order of presbyter on a case by case basis, according to objective criteria approved by the Holy See.” (Anglicanorum coetibus, Article VI).

Anglicanorum coetibus

Article 6
§1. In order to admit candidates to Holy Orders the Ordinary must obtain the consent of the Governing Council. In consideration of Anglican ecclesial tradition and practice, the Ordinary may present to the Holy Father a request for the admission of married men to the presbyterate in the Ordinariate, after a process of discernment based on objective criteria and the needs of the Ordinariate. These objective criteria are determined by the Ordinary in consultation with the local Episcopal Conference and must be approved by the Holy See.

This does not include former Catholic priests who became Anglican and now are in the Ordinariate.

§2. Those who have been previously ordained in the Catholic Church and subsequently have become Anglicans, may not exercise sacred ministry in the Ordinariate. Anglican clergy who are in irregular marriage situations may not be accepted for Holy Orders in the Ordinariate.

 

[OLofMtCarmel]

For the eastern Catholics, it depends upon the territory so to avoid scandal. None of the eastern Catholic churches allow married bishops, but some allow priests to be ordained in the state of matrimony. In traditional Latin territories, it is exceptional.

I’ll never understand or accept that marriage is somehow scandalous. People that “feel scandal” are often secretly the worst in the litter. That’s my belief anyhow. I find it scandalous how the purging of married Orthodox priests in the U.S. historically materialized. That was scandal.

 

[Vico]

Married men in the Ordinariate may be ordained to the priesthood on a case by case basis with the approval of the Holy Father.

The Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter → Ordinariate Questions & Answers → Can ordinariate priests marry?

Anglicanorum coetibus

This does not include former Catholic priests who became Anglican and now are in the Ordinariate.

Surely there are exceptions. Just as stated in Anglicanorum coetibus:
Unmarried ministers must submit to the norm of clerical celibacy of CIC can. 277, §1. § 2. The Ordinary, in full observance of the discipline of celibate clergy in the Latin Church, as a rule (pro regula) will admit only celibate men to the order of presbyter. He may also petition the Roman Pontiff, as a derogation from can. 277, §1, for the admission of married men to the order of presbyter on a case by case basis, according to objective criteria approved by the Holy See.

 

[babochka]

They would probably have to be deposed and then reinstated.

Well, that is mere speculation on your part. Seems to me that is nothing more than legalistic wrangling, keeping the letter of the law vs. the spirit. It would be more in keeping with the Orthodox way of doing things to simply exercise economia in this circumstance.

 

[Vico]

I’ll never understand or accept that marriage is somehow scandalous. People that “feel scandal” are often secretly the worst in the litter. That’s my belief anyhow. I find it scandalous how the purging of married Orthodox priests in the U.S. historically materialized. That was scandal.

The way it is expressed is:
42. In virtue of the fundamental norm of the government of the Catholic Church, to which We alluded above, (82) while on the one hand, the law requiring a freely chosen and perpetual celibacy of those who are admitted to Holy Orders remains unchanged, on the other hand, a study may be allowed of the particular circumstances of married sacred ministers of Churches or other Christian communities separated from the Catholic communion, and of the possibility of admitting to priestly functions those who desire to adhere to the fullness of this communion and to continue to exercise the sacred ministry. The circumstances must be such, however, as not to prejudice the existing discipline regarding celibacy
vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_24061967_sacerdotalis_en.html

 

[ConstantineTG]

Lucky priests! The wives of Orthodox priests I know work outside the home, and their income is needed.

I think the section “Economic Challenges” in this article by Fr John Peck “Marriage & the Priesthood” expresses the economic issues well.
From the Good Guys Wear Black website:

I fully support the value of the white/married priesthood but I also think people can be very naive about the challenges presented for a married priest and his family.

I don’t know many young Orthodox who are seeking a vocation to the priesthood but of the ones I do know I have heard them and Eastern Catholics young men express serious concerns about the problems these days dealing with debt from school and the need to be married before ordination when in America at least people delay marriage and marry at an older age than they do in the homelands or did here in the West in earlier generations.

At least in our Eparchy, every parish has its own attached housing. A priest easily has a place to live with his family. So the priest doesn’t really need to be paid much. The bishop told me how much priests are paid, and given that most of their day-to-day expenses are covered by the parish, I think they make more money than I do after mortgage. But it wasn’t too long ago when the priests weren’t paid well and there were celibate priests who would take part-time secular jobs, like in Walmart or something.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Well, that is mere speculation on your part. Seems to me that is nothing more than legalistic wrangling, keeping the letter of the law vs. the spirit. It would be more in keeping with the Orthodox way of doing things to simply exercise economia in this circumstance.

There is more to a priest not being allowed to remarry than legalisms. A big part of this is the theology on marriage that the Orthodox follow. I can only see this happening if a priest is really intent on remarriage and a community will be left without a priest. But a priest should always be the standard of morality to his flock and thus is held to a much higher standard than anyone. If there is a time and place to be extremely legalistic, this is it.

 

[5Loaves]

Surely there are exceptions. Just as stated in Anglicanorum coetibus:
Unmarried ministers must submit to the norm of clerical celibacy of CIC can. 277, §1. § 2. The Ordinary, in full observance of the discipline of celibate clergy in the Latin Church, as a rule (pro regula) will admit only celibate men to the order of presbyter. He may also petition the Roman Pontiff, as a derogation from can. 277, §1, for the admission of married men to the order of presbyter on a case by case basis, according to objective criteria approved by the Holy See.

I guess I misunderstood what you meant by “no new Anglican Catholic priests may be married when ordained”. which is the only reason I quoted Anglicanorum coetibus

Also no new Anglican Catholic priests may be married when ordained, although there have been many converting married priests accepted.

 

[5Loaves]

I’ve never seen this as a problem either for Catholic or Orthodox. …the married priests I know today don’t have an issue with finances as they are supported by their parishes.
ConstantineTG;10012855:

At least** in our Eparchy, every parish has its own attached housing. A priest easily has a place to live with his family. So the priest doesn’t really need to be paid much.**

The bishop told me how much priests are paid, and given that most of their day-to-day expenses are covered by the parish, I think they make more money than I do after mortgage. But it wasn’t too long ago when the priests weren’t paid well and there were celibate priests who would take part-time secular jobs, like in Walmart or something.

So do you have a fair number of married priests now in your Eparchy?

I haven’t have the impression from you in the past that there are very many UGCC parishes there.

 

[babochka]

There is more to a priest not being allowed to remarry than legalisms. A big part of this is the theology on marriage that the Orthodox follow. I can only see this happening if a priest is really intent on remarriage and a community will be left without a priest. But a priest should always be the standard of morality to his flock and thus is held to a much higher standard than anyone. If there is a time and place to be extremely legalistic, this is it.

I came across this letter regarding the situation of divorced, divorced and remarried, and widowed and remarried priests in the Romanian Orthodox Church. It is clear from the letter that this is/was a significant problem in the Romanian Orthodox church and that it is not considered to be acceptable, but that it has in fact happened on a frequent enough basis to cause concern.

roeanews.info/2010/03/15/bor-%E2%80%93-divorced-andor-remarried-priests/

The Chancery of the Holy Synod has determined that as of 2009, there are 570 priests that are divorced priests and/or divorced and remarried priests, and only 39 have received any kind of penalty for what had transpired, which is over 3.5% of all BOR priests who are not monks; a serious situation in terms of the level of morality of priests …

**b) Divorced clerics, divorced and remarried clerics, as well as those widowed and having remarried, are not permitted to occupy the position of Parish Priest, **which is a position of leadership, in parishes where there are multiple priests. In rural parishes, in this very special case, this type of priest is kept on as Parish Priest, however he will not be promoted to superior category parishes;

 

[Vico]

I guess I misunderstood what you meant by “no new Anglican Catholic priests may be married when ordained”. which is the only reason I quoted Anglicanorum coetibus

I was not taking an absolutist position, but the norm. I should have said so.

 

[ConstantineTG]

So do you have a fair number of married priests now in your Eparchy?

I haven’t have the impression from you in the past that there are very many UGCC parishes there.

They’re all pretty recent arrivals from the motherland. I can think of at least 3, but I think there is one more who’s older and has more children.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I came across this letter regarding the situation of divorced, divorced and remarried, and widowed and remarried priests in the Romanian Orthodox Church. It is clear from the letter that this is/was a significant problem in the Romanian Orthodox church and that it is not considered to be acceptable, but that it has in fact happened on a frequent enough basis to cause concern.

roeanews.info/2010/03/15/bor-%E2%80%93-divorced-andor-remarried-priests/

As I suspect, they swallow the bitter pill of letting the priest continue because there is no one to replace him.

 

[babochka]

As I suspect, they swallow the bitter pill of letting the priest continue because there is no one to replace him.

I didn’t make any assertions about whether this was right or wrong, or prudent. I was just refuting this statement, which is clearly untrue.

But the Orthodox are very strict about this and there are ancient canons that do not allow this. For the Orthodox, anyone ordained is free to marry/remarry. Just make sure that they are willing to give up their ministry because there is no way they will still be a bishop/priest/deacon/subdeacon after marriage.

Even if the 2nd marriage took place without the Bishop’s permission (we have no way of knowing in the Romanian situation), they are clearly being allowed to continue in priestly ministry, albeit in restricted form.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I didn’t make any assertions about whether this was right or wrong, or prudent. I was just refuting this statement, which is clearly untrue.

Even if the 2nd marriage took place without the Bishop’s permission (we have no way of knowing in the Romanian situation), they are clearly being allowed to continue in priestly ministry, albeit in restricted form.

Well, the canons are clear that priests are to be deposed if they marry. If they continue, it would have to be out of ekonomia.

 

[Aramis]

Also no new Anglican Catholic priests may be married when ordained, although there have been many converting married priests accepted.

Not correct. Married men enrolled in the Anglican Ordinariate as laymen may be ordained priests. It’s worded such that other Romans can’t take advantage of the Ordinariate, but those who were Anglican laity and those born into the Ordinariate may be ordained. It goes through Rome for approval, and the specific requirements in formation have yet to be released, possibly yet to be developed, but Anglicanorum Coetibus does permit it.