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Armor_of_Light
Guest
What?..“REPENT!” or something else?
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babs57
Guest
There may a theological basis for an unmarried priesthood:
The Church = the Bride of Christ
Christ = the Groom
The priest in persona Christi = the Groom
The Mass = The Marriage Supper of the Lamb
Since we are allowed only one spouse, wouldn’t it make sense that a priest should be married to the Church, and not to anyone else?
The Church = the Bride of Christ
Christ = the Groom
The priest in persona Christi = the Groom
The Mass = The Marriage Supper of the Lamb
Since we are allowed only one spouse, wouldn’t it make sense that a priest should be married to the Church, and not to anyone else?
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Lapey
Guest
Sorry folks, you and Dr. Peters are wrong. This is not binding to those who are not required to be celibate. This argument is getting old. The bishops have spoken, the committee of the Vatican has spoken, married clergy are permitted to have relations with their wives.
However, even if it were required I would be a married deacon. This is my calling it would make no difference. One more point, if a couple who is married and the husband is ordained, they can and some do make a vow to live a life of perfect and perpetual continence, but it is the choice of the couple not people who think they know the canon laws better than the magisterium.
There may be some pious reasons to be an unmarried priest. However, the first 800 years of the Church had married priests in both the East and the West. The Eastern Churches still have married priests. However, the Church has always chosen bishops from the unmarried clergy.
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Mike30
Guest
In the Orthodox Churches a man may get married prior to being ordained. He cannot get married afterwards. If his wife dies, he cannot re-marry. As I understand it Orthodox Bishops cannot be married and are supposed to come from the ranks of Religious Brothers, Monks.
As to the Eastern Catholic Churches I would assume they follow the Orthodox rules on the subject. I have never heard one way or the other about them. Perhaps an eastern observer could come on and let us know the specifics.
As to the Eastern Catholic Churches I would assume they follow the Orthodox rules on the subject. I have never heard one way or the other about them. Perhaps an eastern observer could come on and let us know the specifics.
The above is correct.
There is only one thing that I am not certain about the above… I know that Eastern Catholic bishops must be chosen from the celibate but, I don’t know if they are solely chosen from the monks.
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Lapey
Guest
No response? Where do you get you sound information to be able to make such broad and “matter of fact” statements? Please, lets have an open discussion, otherwise your statements will confuse people of the truth. We need to be careful not to make stements of opinion as fact. This is why there is such a confusion in the Church these days.Sorry folks, you and Dr. Peters are wrong. This is not binding to those who are not required to be celibate. This argument is getting old. The bishops have spoken, the committee of the Vatican has spoken, married clergy are permitted to have relations with their wives.
However, even if it were required I would be a married deacon. This is my calling it would make no difference. One more point, if a couple who is married and the husband is ordained, they can and some do make a vow to live a life of perfect and perpetual continence, but it is the choice of the couple not people who think they know the canon laws better than the magisterium.
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Armor_of_Light
Guest
Can. 277 §1. Clerics are **obliged to observe perfect and perpetual continence **for the sake of the kingdom of heaven and therefore are bound to celibacy which is a special gift of God by which sacred ministers can adhere more easily to Christ with an undivided heart and are able to dedicate themselves more freely to the service of God and humanity.
§2. Clerics are to behave with due prudence towards persons whose company can endanger their obligation to observe continence or give rise to scandal among the faithful.
§3. The diocesan bishop is competent to establish more specific norms concerning this matter and to pass judgment in particular cases concerning the observance of this obligation.
So, yes…It is an obligation which is rarely enforced by the Bishops. I stated facts and the truth. What are you exactly getting at here? For you to suggest the information I provided was simply opinion is rather disingenuous.
Would you be a priest if allowed to?
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Armor_of_Light
Guest
Who is Dr. Peters?
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jpjd
Guest
I am not a fan of Frank Bruni, but I will give him credit this time around, for this article in which he manages to express his opinion without descending into his usual anti-Catholic diatribe.
I must comment on his closing paragraph:
“If the stories about Cardinal O’Brien are true, you can look at him as the latest in a long line of Catholic hypocrites, his deeds in conflict with his words. That’s fair enough. But you can also look at him as someone whose needs couldn’t conform to a needless commitment to aloneness. And you can reserve your harshest judgment for the institution that puts him and so many others in that bind.”
I want to discuss the part that I bolded. It is a claim that he is making and I think it needs to be dissected.
Is a priest’s committment to celibacy “needless”? And does celibacy = aloneness? And to take it a step further, even if celibacy = aloneness, does aloneness = loneliness?
And can anyone effectively explain that a life of celibacy serves a meaningful purpose in a priest’s vocation?
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Like civil law, canon law is subject to interpretation. (In other words, sometimes the meaning is more complex than what the plain text seems to indicate.) It’s also useful to know that the Vatican “philosophy of interpretation” tends to be different from the way English speaking countries are likely to interpret law.
The following is my opinion:
Dr. Peters tends to think in English-speaker terms. He uses more of a mathematical approach to canon law while the Vatican tends to be more, “whatever makes sense is what we meant” approach.
Dr. Peters is a rather well known canon lawyer.
Like civil law, canon law is subject to interpretation. (In other words, sometimes the meaning is more complex than what the plain text seems to indicate.) It’s also useful to know that the Vatican “philosophy of interpretation” tends to be different from the way English speaking countries are likely to interpret law.
The following is my opinion:
Dr. Peters tends to think in English-speaker terms. He uses more of a mathematical approach to canon law while the Vatican tends to be more, “whatever makes sense is what we meant” approach.
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Michael1966
Guest
I think perhaps it is time to allow married men to become priests, and perhaps to allow priests to marry. But I would hope that the priesthood still attracts a significant number of men who’s whole life is dedicated to their vocation to priesthood.
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JRKH
Guest
Not that it can’t be discussed here…but I think that this might deserve a thread of it’s own.
I’m not sure how I would answer this…but would be interested in observing a discussion…
Peace
James
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jpjd
Guest
Great idea…look for the new thread in Apologetics!
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=10426166#post10426166
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=10426166#post10426166
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Parisian
Guest
In my faith, one priest lives at the rectory with his wife and child. He is available to all parish members at anytime. I honestly don’t have a problem with married priests, but I am sure there are what people would call “problems” with having priest marry just like there are problems with having them remain celibate.
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Lapey
Guest
It is opinion, your opinion. The canon does not oblige a cleric who is not living a state of celibacy. Please refer to teh authority, teh magisterium. The Bishops do not enforce it because it is not a requirement.
As far as your note, why would I want to be priest? I am a deacon, husband, and father of three teens. I have more than I can handle now!
I am not a “mini” priest, I am a deacon. I have no ambition to be a priest.
frvanhove.wordpress.com/2012/09/18/letter-of-cardinal-francesco-palmerio-to-cardinal-timothy-dolan-on-the-subject-of-canon-277-%C2%A7-1/
Please do some research on this matter, those who say I am bound speak of their reasoning and opinions; those who have authority have spoken clearly that the married clergy are not bound.
PS. Dr. Peters is a very well respected Canonist who is of the other opinion and posts here on these forums occasionally. Maily when this topic comes up and I normally come to refute his opinion with my practical knowledge and magisterium’s statements.
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Parisian
Guest
Amen for you Deacon Gary!
The church (Anglican and Roman rite) needs more men to become Deacons.
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Arandur
Guest
For those who advocate a married priesthood, I have a few questions. I’ll stick to the practical questions, as I think these are less contentious and would need to be addressed before even considering the theological merit of the idea.
IMO, when:
I hardly think it’s worth discussing much until these pre-conditions are met, save to point out that we’re not even ready to have the discussion much less deal with the practical consequences.
I do think, however, that there may well be some places around the world that DO meet these conditions…I just don’t think we’re anywhere near that in the American or (probably) European churches. So there may be other possibilities–for other disciplines within other cultural rites. Like we already have with some of the Eastern Catholics.
I would like to look more into how it is working out among some of the groups that have a married priesthood. I also tend to think there is a big difference in the practical matters of things between a case where married priests are a minority and one in which they are the norm, in the majority.
- Do you think it would really increase the number of vocations significantly? What evidence do you have for that?
As part of this, consider:
- Is the permanent diaconate (married deacons) flooded with candidates?
- Most priests begin their journey to ordination young (this will be important to consider in the following question, as well)
- Which witness tends to set apart the priesthood more in the eyes of men, making it seem more special, more “heroic” (to what degree do you think this has on recruitment)?
- Which witness is more needful to our sex-obsessed society?
- Do you think priests should be allowed to marry after ordination? This would include both those who enter the priesthood single and those who are widowed after ordination.
Consider:
- Do you want a priest looking for a wife?
- Do you want single women pursuing priests?
- How much of a distraction would such courtship be?
- How open to scandal or relationship smearing or breaking of a position of trust would this cause?
- How do you think marriage scandals would affect the Church?
Consider:
- Word getting out of abuse or even just a less than ideal marriage on the part of a priest
- A divorce
- Adultery
- A divorce where the wife seeks financial damages or support–who pays for it?
- How will the married priest support his family?
Consider:
- Are Catholics willing to contribute a LOT more money to support the families of married priests?
- Presumably, priests will be more likely have large families and a wife who stays home to devote herself to their children
- Will the Church have to pick up the tab for health care, education, and retirement for the whole family?
- Will the Church pick up the tag for liability and any other family lawsuits?
- Which is their primary vocation?
Consider:
- Many priests get called away on short notice at all times of day to minister to their flock and administer the sacraments
- If you have more than a minority of priests who have family as a major commitment, how will the needs of the flock be met for those emergencies, even just counseling needed on short notice
- Do you want most priests to be able to devote themselves entirely to the parish, or do you want them to have to worry about work/life balance and being torn between the two (and the added stress that will cause to both family and parish)?
- When a priest with young children becomes a widower, what happens?
Consider:
- If you didn’t like the idea of priests seeking a wife while in ordained ministry, those children won’t have a chance at growing up with a (step)mother
- The strain of raising children as a single parent will add significantly to the priest’s burden
- A conflict in ministry may bring up the question of whether the priest should retire…in which case how will he provide for his children, if he was trained from a young age at one thing?
IMO, when:
- Catholics give so much money to the Church that the Church needn’t worry about supporting a priest, his hard-working stay-at-home-mom, his large family of children, and all the many costs and issues associated with all considerations of families, good and bad;
- when we know that vocations will boom because of such a change by the evidence of a permanent diaconate brimming so full with married deacons that we don’t need many extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion;
- when this whole question becomes a sincere discussion characterized by charity, joy, peace with either outcome, and excitement at a possible opportunity, rather than by feelings of resentment, anger, rebellion, or entitlement…
I hardly think it’s worth discussing much until these pre-conditions are met, save to point out that we’re not even ready to have the discussion much less deal with the practical consequences.
I do think, however, that there may well be some places around the world that DO meet these conditions…I just don’t think we’re anywhere near that in the American or (probably) European churches. So there may be other possibilities–for other disciplines within other cultural rites. Like we already have with some of the Eastern Catholics.
I would like to look more into how it is working out among some of the groups that have a married priesthood. I also tend to think there is a big difference in the practical matters of things between a case where married priests are a minority and one in which they are the norm, in the majority.
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babochka
Guest
I think the opposite: the theological issues should be discussed in theory, and practical considerations ironed out later. Temporal concerns should not take priority if something is determined to be good for the church spiritually. Disclaimer: I do not necessarily advocate for a married priesthood in the Roman Church.
This is a non-issue. No apostolic church allows, or has allowed in the past, marriage after ordination. It isn’t even really a part of the discussion.
Of course, scandals would affect the Church negatively, in the same way that any scandal involving clergy affects the church. We expect a high standard from clergy. As far as a divorce settlement, priests would be paid a normal salary and the settlement would come out of that salary.
Take a $75,000 a year salary in a parish with 300 contributing families. The cost for the salary would be $250 per family per year, or just over $20 per month. That’s not really that much. It wouldn’t even be that much, as priests are already paid a significant salary. In this diocese, the pay for pastors starts at about $25,000 per year, plus housing. In that case, the increase in contribution would only amount to about $13 per month. Of course, Catholics tend to be comparatively cheap when it comes to weekly contributions in the collection basket, so a change in the attitude would be necessary. Yes, the church would need to pick up the cost of health care for the family. Free tuition in a parish-based school would be good, but retirement would be handled the same as in any other family.
I suspect we would see proportionately more older vocations as well, in which the kids might be grown and the man might have a pension from another job.
I’m am a parishioner of a married priest. We are a very small parish and do not support our priest. He has a full-time job as a chaplain to support his family, which would not work in an average or even small Latin-rite parish in the U.S. In addition to being our pastor and working a full-time job, he says Mass 3 mornings a week at a Latin-rite parish near his home. He also helps out with confessions there and is a sought after confessor and spiritual director. He is also the father of several young children.
Many, many professions include a person to work on-call and be available at a moments notice. A man’s choice to pursue those professions is best made as a family decision, with the support and consent of a wife who has the temperament to deal with frequent absences, not always knowing what is going on, etc. It isn’t a life for everybody. The priesthood, of course, is not a profession, but it is possible to draw some comparisons. Some people can lead this kind of life, others can’t. Life-work balance is always an issue, no matter what one’s state in life. Some priests golf in their spare time. Others like to hike, or ski, or jog. My priest coaches little girls’ soccer. He searches for balance, but very often his life is out of balance. Sometimes the family life suffers. Occasionally it is the parish that suffers. Either way, he is human and has to find a balance just as any human does. Celibate priests are also subject to burn-out and other problems associated with a lack of balance.
A widower would not be allowed to remarry. Practical considerations might mean that he needs to leave active ministry for a time. The job skills and education of a priest are transferable to a number of professions. He could also step back from parish work and have another position, but still perform sacramental functions.
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hwriggles4
Guest
Ellen:
I thought this was a worthwhile explanation on this thread. I also liked the questionaire that was posted. Being a priest is not a 9-to-5 job.
I know a few former Episcopalians who were ordained to the Catholic priesthood under the Pastoral Provision, and the ones I know agree celibacy should be the “rule”.
The title I have seen instead of pastor has been “Priest-In-Charge”. I do recall that those coming in under the Pastoral Provision cannot become bishops. The former Episcopalians that I have met I am impressed with the “orthodoxy”. Quite a few are older (55+), but I do know one or two younger ones. I also know a Catholic priest who was a Lutheran pastor, and he is serving in the Army.
Those who come in under the Pastoral Provision and those in the Eastern Rite (if married), must be married before they are ordained. I actually know a Catholic priest who had a classmate from the Eastern Rite. One struggle the Eastern Rite seminarian had was he had to schedule his wedding the day before his ordination (would you believe his fiance wanted to move his ordination to another time?)
I do know a priest in my local area who is a widower. He was 64 when he was ordained, and he is a solid priest. After 11 years as a priest, he is still energetic and orthodox.
There was another priest in my diocese (now deceased) who had been a medical doctor. His wife passed away when he was about 60. He retired from his practice and felt called to the priesthood. This priest was rejected for the seminary a few times before he was accepted. This priest served our diocese for at least 10-15 years before passing away at the age of 90.
I know some dioceses (some, not all) will sometimes take seminarians who have been divorced and annulled, but this is on a case-by-case basis. One stipulation (in this case) is that financial obligations to children must be completed. This is often the case for widowers too.
One argument that I heard for the celibate priesthood makes sense - would you want your wife complaining that you were being transferred to a parish in the ghetto? I also don’t think your wife would like it if you had to make sick calls frequently in the middle of the night. (Sidebar: It is sad that I have heard stories of priests declining to go to the hospital in the middle of the night when a patient asks for a priest. I’ve heard stories of priests say, “well, she’s not one of my parishioners”. The priest missed a chance to welcome back someone in the time of need. I’ve heard of the night nurse calling two or three rectories before finding a priest to visit the hospital.)
Permanent Deacons also cannot remarry after their spouse passes away.
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