Married to a non-christian

[EasterJoy]

My wife has never be baptized. so you are saying that my marriage in not valid? and what is the difference between valid and Sacramental? Also did not know that I had to have permission from the church to marry outside my faith.(born and raised catholic). I think I have a problem. can’t talk to a priest because I am not in any parish at this time. Been thing about coming back, but…

Catholics are free to marry other Catholics, but because we belong to the Body of Christ, we are not free to marry those outside the Church. There has to be a dispensation given. Explaining the ins and outs of that is better done by someone who can ask specific questions about your situation and thus tailor the explanation to you.

Also, every baptised Catholic, even those distant from a priest or who are not practicing, belongs to a diocese, archdiocese or other ordinariate. You may not be going to Mass every Sunday, but there is a bishop somewhere who is responsible for your care! For instance, those in the US military belong to the Archdiocese for the Military Services, USA (milarch.org/site/c.dwJXKgOUJiIaG/b.6287817/k.290A/Archdiocese_for_the_Military_USA.htm). If you call the office of your diocese/archdiocese, they will tell you what parish you belong to. Now, your bishop may allow Catholics in his diocese to attend Mass and avail themselves of the sacraments in parishes other than the geographic parish in which they live, but that is another matter. I’m just saying that you don’t have to establish yourself at a parish by attendance in order to belong to it. Provided you are baptised Catholic, you already belong somewhere right now.

thank you for the reply. My wife was married for about six month to a drunked, drug abuser, wife abuser. She has a scar on her back where he knifed her. after the divorce, he said that if he can’t have her, no one would. she is in fear of her life. We did not get married in the catholic church. we were married in a lutheran church. When we inquired about an annullment, the church said that they need to interview him. She did not want to let him know where she was for fear of him coming back and killing her. the church said that was not their problem and this was the way things were done. so we did not get the annullment. talking to a priest is hard at best as I am deaf. do not sigh and only lip read. still miss things. she is my ears. can’t go to confession as writing it is not allowed according to the church. cannot have any written records, i guess. I can understand now why deaf people have the hardest time with their faith.

I’m sorry you have to go through this. Were I you, I would inquire again with someone else, perhaps a little higher up, because death threats from the previous spouse are an unusual and compelling circumstance, whether or not someone with a bureuacrat’s mentality think so. I do not know if it is possible to investigate the valdity of a marriage without at least attempting to notify the previous spouse, but certainly it is possible to have an investigation into a marriage’s validity without the cooperation of the former spouse or if the previous spouse cannot be located. Also, if you can find contact information for the ex-spouse, the Church may be able to arrange communication with the former spouse via a third party, so as not to give him a clue as to his former wife’s whereabouts. Considering the danger to your wife, however, this is a case that deserves some accomodation, even if someone drags their heals about supplying that.

Besides, after 25 years, the chances are not small that a violent alcoholic has either gotten clean and sober, has earned himself a prison term, has become impossible to locate, or else has died. That is not to say that it can automatically assumed that he is no longer a threat, but that his circumstance may be much different than the first time you inquired about an annulment. Even alcoholics can change.

Also, most diocese these days now have an office which coordinates ministries for the deaf: for instance, they can find you a priest who can communicate with you without an interpreter. Even a priest who cannot read lips may be able to lead you through confession as if you had only recently become deaf and had no prior experience with deafness. You can’t write out your confession, for instance, but you could point to particular items on a general written-out examination of conscience applicable to your state in life and nod and indicate frequency in some way. If your diocese is not helpful–that is, if they define deaf as Deaf and using ASL–pray for help and keep after them. As a Catholic, you have a right to the sacraments, provided you are willing to do your part to avail yourself of them. Remember the Lord’s parable!

Then he told them a parable about the necessity for them to pray always without becoming weary. He said, “There was a judge in a certain town who neither feared God nor respected any human being. And a widow in that town used to come to him and say, ‘Render a just decision for me against my adversary.’ For a long time the judge was unwilling, but eventually he thought, ‘While it is true that I neither fear God nor respect any human being, because this widow keeps bothering me I shall deliver a just decision for her lest she finally come and strike me.’” The Lord said, “Pay attention to what the dishonest judge says. Will not God then secure the rights of his chosen ones who call out to him day and night? Will he be slow to answer them? I tell you, he will see to it that justice is done for them speedily. But when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?” Luke 18:1-8

 

[faithfully]

Well now… I stand corrected! And a bummed! However, I just re-read the e-mail exchange I had with the priest that I asked this of last time. I can see that I questioned VALIDITY… and he confirmed my marriage valid. And did not use the word sacramental.

And to be sure, I just called my current parish priest… And yes, same thing. Valid not sacramental.

Thank you for adding clarity!

And so below… It WAS/IS TRUE… I was wrong!

Also not true… as my spouse has not been baptized. I rec’d all the necessary dispensation, and I’m 1)married in the Catholic Church and 2) Hold a HOLY SACRAMENT of MARRIAGE certificate.

I’ve also confirmed all of this as valid with my priest, whom I’ve know for nearly 40 years, who also works in the same location as our Bishop…

So, unless I’m NOT dealing with a lot of life time Catholics, who are considered experts in their field, I’m gonna go with what they’ve informed me to be accurate.

I will do further research… I’m reading the canon right now. I will also talk with my priest again.

I’m not upset. I’m going by what I was told by experts.

 

[1ke]

Well now… I stand corrected! And a bummed! However, I just re-read the e-mail exchange I had with the priest that I asked this of last time. I can see that I questioned VALIDITY… and he confirmed my marriage valid. And did not use the word sacramental.

And to be sure, I just called my current parish priest… And yes, same thing. Valid not sacramental.

Thank you for adding clarity!

And so below… It WAS/IS TRUE… I was wrong!

No one is questioning the validity of your marriage.

In order to be a sacrament, both parties must be baptized since baptism is the gateway to all other sacraments.

As far as the certificate is concerned, most parishes print or hand write souvenir certificates for their parishioners on occasions such as baptism, first communion, marriage, confirmation, etc. These are ordered from church supply stores. I have a whole pile of them in my office (I take care of sacramental records for my parish). The person who printed it up probably never gave it a second thought (or might not have even known) that your spouse was not baptized and therefore it is not a sacrament. It probably never occured to anyone that when making up these souvenir certificates that it might be misleading. Also, not every parish gives them out. My parish where I married does not. The official sacramental record in the parish books is all they do, no souvenir printed certificates.

 

[faithfully]

No one is questioning the validity of your marriage.

In order to be a sacrament, both parties must be baptized since baptism is the gateway to all other sacraments.

As far as the certificate is concerned, most parishes print or hand write souvenir certificates for their parishioners on occasions such as baptism, first communion, marriage, confirmation, etc. These are ordered from church supply stores. I have a whole pile of them in my office (I take care of sacramental records for my parish). The person who printed it up probably never gave it a second thought (or might not have even known) that your spouse was not baptized and therefore it is not a sacrament. It probably never occured to anyone that when making up these souvenir certificates that it might be misleading. Also, not every parish gives them out. My parish where I married does not. The official sacramental record in the parish books is all they do, no souvenir printed certificates.

I’m aware no one is questioning the validity of my marriage. I was referring to a conversation from the past.

Regardless. I’m all clued in now! thnx.

 

[EasterJoy]

Well now… I stand corrected! And a bummed!

Keep in mind: a marriage that is valid but not sacramental may still be one of the means by which your spiritual perfection and your spouse’s salvation is achieved. If it were not, the Church would not have given you dispensation to enter into it. As it is, God may yet work a great and everlasting triumph through your marriage!

 

[joanofarc2008]

thank you for the reply. My wife was married for about six month to a drunked, drug abuser, wife abuser. She has a scar on her back where he knifed her. after the divorce, he said that if he can’t have her, no one would. she is in fear of her life. We did not get married in the catholic church. we were married in a lutheran church. When we inquired about an annullment, the church said that they need to interview him. She did not want to let him know where she was for fear of him comming back and killing her. the church said that was not their problem and this was the way things were done. so we did not get the annullment. talking to a priest is hard at best as I am deaf. do not sigh and only lip read. still miss things. she is my ears. can’t go to confession as writing it is not allowed according to the church. cannot have any written records, i guess. I can understand now why deaf people have the hardest time with their faith.

They need to contact him and give him a chance to tell defend the bond. They do not need to disclose your wifes location. This has been dealt with many times by many of the tribunals and there is no reason that your wife cannot be kept safe during this process. Her xh will not receive any information as to her whereabouts. However, at this time the marriage is presumed valid until that validity is investigated. I would if I were you go see your priest for the paperwork and begin filling that out. Also your wife will receive a Canonical advocate as part of that process that she can be in touch with that will help her through this.

 

[faithfully]

Keep in mind: a marriage that is valid but not sacramental may still be one of the means by which your spiritual perfection and your spouse’s salvation is achieved. If it were not, the Church would not have given you dispensation to enter into it. As it is, God may yet work a great and everlasting triumph through your marriage!

Thank you!

 

[TheRealJuliane]

They need to contact him and give him a chance to tell defend the bond. They do not need to disclose your wifes location. This has been dealt with many times by many of the tribunals and there is no reason that your wife cannot be kept safe during this process. Her xh will not receive any information as to her whereabouts. However, at this time the marriage is presumed valid until that validity is investigated. I would if I were you go see your priest for the paperwork and begin filling that out. Also your wife will receive a Canonical advocate as part of that process that she can be in touch with that will help her through this.

Wouldn’t the prior spouse at least know that she is in a certain diocese? If the inquiry comes from any general location, even if a large diocese, that person can probably be tracked, by a determined abuser. I would not be comfortable, if it were me, knowing that my abuser would even have a diocese to narrow down where I might be. Of course, with the internet, unless you transact zero business and do no personal computing, someone can still pay to find your records, so in reality, this bum probably would already have found her if he was very determined.

So, thinking about the situation, I would undertake an investigation on my own, to locate the former abuser, before I decided whether or not to go forward with the annulment process.

 

[joanofarc2008]

Wouldn’t the prior spouse at least know that she is in a certain diocese? If the inquiry comes from any general location, even if a large diocese, that person can probably be tracked, by a determined abuser. I would not be comfortable, if it were me, knowing that my abuser would even have a diocese to narrow down where I might be. Of course, with the internet, unless you transact zero business and do no personal computing, someone can still pay to find your records, so in reality, this bum probably would already have found her if he was very determined.

So, thinking about the situation, I would undertake an investigation on my own, to locate the former abuser, before I decided whether or not to go forward with the annulment process.

Not neccessarily- one has a choice of five different diocese one cannot legitimately open a case in. The main three that usually apply are a) the diocese of the marriage b) the diocese of the petitioner or c) the diocese of the respondent. In my case when my xh was contacted by the diocese I was currently living in he was contacted by the diocese that he was living in. It was part of establishing jurisdiction. Since he was still living in the diocese that we were married in then that diocese still had an interest up until the point that he made the decision he did not want to be involved hence that diocese’s involvement and communication with him.

 

[USS_Nostromo]

Me again. Not trying to beat a dead horse, but took Easter Joy’s advice and went to the diocese office personally. Don’t use the phone. Let me explain something first. The diocese I am in is very large. It contains two large cities(one populations is over 150,000 and the other is over 300,000) and contains 15 counties. There are 82 parishes in this diocese. Only 4 have something for the deaf. and none of them in the city i live in.

so are you ready for the answers I got?

1. I am not considered a member of the diocese unless I am registered at a parish. Sort of saying “you can’t have a job without being in the union, but you can’t be in the union if you don’t have a job”.
2. I asked what parish boundery I am in. I am lucky:shrug:. I am in an area where three parishes boundry are overlaping each other barely. So i can take my pick???
3. At this time there is no ministries for the deaf. It is being studied to see if there is a need for it.
4. the diocese tends to push people back to the parish for problem or issues as they are busy and don’t have the time or resorces to deal with every single person who come in looking for help or answers.
5. the lady is checking, but as far as the annullment, they still need to contact the ex. She understand the concerns, but that is the way it is done in this diocese, no exceptions. She said that they have some problems of ex’s going after their ex’s, but not enough to change the policy.
6. they also have said that most priest will not talk to people who are not a member of their parish. I did call two of the parishes and they basicly told me the same thing.

Interesting, isn’t it.

At this point, my wife has no interest in joining the church. She find the church very cold, impersonal, judgemental. You would have better success emptying the great lakes with a teaspoon. I know God works wonders, but at this time no.

also to answer another question, I have been deaf since birth. I have some traces of hearing with very powerfull hearing aids to get along in life, but I MUST see that person face to lip read so that I can “hear”

 

[EasterJoy]

Me again. Not trying to beat a dead horse, but took Easter Joy’s advice and went to the diocese office personally. Don’t use the phone. Let me explain something first. The diocese I am in is very large. It contains two large cities(one populations is over 150,000 and the other is over 300,000) and contains 15 counties. There are 82 parishes in this diocese. Only 4 have something for the deaf. and none of them in the city i live in.

so are you ready for the answers I got?

1. I am not considered a member of the diocese unless I am registered at a parish. Sort of saying “you can’t have a job without being in the union, but you can’t be in the union if you don’t have a job”.
2. I asked what parish boundery I am in. I am lucky:shrug:. I am in an area where three parishes boundry are overlaping each other barely. So i can take my pick???
3. At this time there is no ministries for the deaf. It is being studied to see if there is a need for it.
4. the diocese tends to push people back to the parish for problem or issues as they are busy and don’t have the time or resorces to deal with every single person who come in looking for help or answers.
5. the lady is checking, but as far as the annullment, they still need to contact the ex. She understand the concerns, but that is the way it is done in this diocese, no exceptions. She said that they have some problems of ex’s going after their ex’s, but not enough to change the policy.
6. they also have said that most priest will not talk to people who are not a member of their parish. I did call two of the parishes and they basicly told me the same thing.

Interesting, isn’t it.

At this point, my wife has no interest in joining the church. She find the church very cold, impersonal, judgemental. You would have better success emptying the great lakes with a teaspoon. I know God works wonders, but at this time no.

also to answer another question, I have been deaf since birth. I have some traces of hearing with very powerfull hearing aids to get along in life, but I MUST see that person face to lip read so that I can “hear”

My kids are hard of hearing and went to an oral school for the deaf and hard of hearing, so I wasn’t sure the level of hearing loss you were talking about.

I don’t find the interchange you describe interesting so much as I find it scandalous. By canon law, baptised Catholics have a right to the sacraments, provided they are properly disposed. If you do not have access to the sacraments, there is an immediate need for your bishop to find someone to minister to you.

I suggest posting a question describing your situation and experiences on the Liturgy and Sacraments forum. There are experts there who can help you find an advocate within the Church to get you what the Church has the duty to provide to all the baptised, including those who have difficulty with hearing and speech. When your bishop is made aware of your situation, someone is going to be provided to see to your spiritual care.

 

[joanofarc2008]

There is a lot that can be said here but I am not going to say it here in the open forums. I would suggest coming into our group and discussing this. The information you got was from someone who most likely does not deal with day to day operations of the Tribunal. This is where I will start. There are reasons the ex has to be contacted and the main reason is that so he cannot appeal after it is all over just to make your lives miserable. I am sorry this woman seems to be so cold and unpastoral. Your best bet is to register at the parish you feel most comfortable with and start the process there as you will still need to get the situation with the marriage worked out in order for you to come back to the Church. God bless.

 

[EasterJoy]

There is a lot that can be said here but I am not going to say it here in the open forums. I would suggest coming into our group and discussing this. The information you got was from someone who most likely does not deal with day to day operations of the Tribunal. This is where I will start. There are reasons the ex has to be contacted and the main reason is that so he cannot appeal after it is all over just to make your lives miserable. I am sorry this woman seems to be so cold and unpastoral. Your best bet is to register at the parish you feel most comfortable with and start the process there as you will still need to get the situation with the marriage worked out in order for you to come back to the Church. God bless.

Yes, he needs that help…he doesn’t know what his rights and obligations are, he has difficulties communicating, and he does not appear to be the only person in his diocese with those problems. I would hate to see him go to a parish and have *them *give him more incorrect information and unnecessary frustration. He could get totally lost in the shuffle, and there is no way his bishop would want that. In the unlikely event that even his bishop didn’t care, Rome most certainly does.

 

[joanofarc2008]

Yes, he needs that help…he doesn’t know what his rights and obligations are, he has difficulties communicating, and he does not appear to be the only person in his diocese with those problems. I would hate to see him go to a parish and have *them *give him more incorrect information and unnecessary frustration. He could get totally lost in the shuffle, and there is no way his bishop would want that. In the unlikely event that even his bishop didn’t care, Rome most certainly does.

Thank you very much for your support Easter Joy. You always seem very fair and charitable on here. God bless.