Married without consent?

[ReflectHim]

::copied::

I have a dear preacher friend who is not married. While considering his unmarried state, and the awful misery he must be experiencing, I thought it would be better if he were married. So I happened upon a plan that would accomplish my desired end, and thought I might share it with our readers.

Some afternoon, while he is sleeping, I will get some fine Christian lady to accompany me, along with the necessary witnesses, to his home.

We will quietly sneak in and, while my friend is sleeping, I will put the question to the bride-to-be: “Will you take this sleeper to be your lawful wedded husband?” She will, of course, answer, “I do.” I will then ask my sleeping brother, “Do you take this woman to be your wife?” Unable to answer for himself, we will permit the woman to answer for him. I will then pronounce them man and wife, awaken my friend and inform him of his good fortune!

Ridiculous you say? Absolutely. But is there any difference between the procedure in the scenario above and what is done in the modern day practice of infant baptism? There is not one single infant upon whom the rite of baptism is pronounced, that is aware of what is taking place.

Sponsors (usually the parents) take certain vows on behalf of the babe for which there is not one shred of evidence in the New Testament authorizing such a practice. When will we learn that only those who believe and confess the name of Christ before men are viable candidates for obedience in the watery grave of baptism? (Mark 16:16; Acts 8:37).

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

Parents are responsible for their childrens’ well bewgin, both physical and spiritual. Part of infant baptism is the promise by the parents and godparents to raise the infant in the Faith.

Your “sleeping preacher friend” is capable of making such a decision by himslef, and besides, a marriage requires witnesses.

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

Wait, I just noticed the “::copied::” at the beginning. Does that mean this was taken from another thread, or something? Anyway, infant baptism actually is centuries old, not really a “modern practice”. In the New Testament, entire households are baptised at the same time. A household would include slaves, children, and infants.

Acts 16:31-34

Even beyond this, male infants would be circumcised. Did they consent to the covenant between God and Abraham?

Genesis 17:9-13

 

[Ignatius2000]

Okay, I’ll bite.

First, is awareness necessary for baptism to be efficacious? Lets see what some ECFs say…

And they shall baptise the little children first. And if they can answer for themselves, let them answer. But if they cannot, let their parents answer or someone from their family."

Hmm, I didn’t know that Hippolytus of Rome posted here! Seems pretty clear anyway what he has to say about awareness as a necessity for baptism. Let’s see what a couple other ECFs have to say about infants and baptism…

“For this reason, moreover, the Church received from the apostles the tradition of baptizing infants too.”

“But in respect of the case of the infants, which you say ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, and that the law of ancient circumcision should be regarded, so that you think one who is just born should not be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day…And therefore, dearest brother, this was our opinion in council, that by us no one ought to be hindered from baptism…we think is to be even more observed in respect of infants and newly-born persons.”

How about a bit of scripture now?

Exodus 12
12For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD.

13And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.
|
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26And it shall come to pass, when your children shall say unto you, What mean ye by this service?

27That ye shall say, It is the sacrifice of the LORD’s passover, who passed over the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt, when he smote the Egyptians, and delivered our houses. And the people bowed the head and worshipped.

Why were the firstborn saved from being smitten? Was it not through the faith of the parents that they were saved from death? Is it not through the faith of the parents and godparents that infants are baptized? This theme of being saved through the faith of another continues into the New Testament (see Matt. 9:2, Mark 2:3-5, Matt. 8:5-13, Luke 6:10, Mark 9:22-25).

So, the Early Church Fathers claim that the practice of baptizing infants to be handed down to them through the Apostles, and when we take a look at the book of Acts (16:31-33), it seems that the Apostles did indeed baptize entire households (most likely children and infants as well).

In any case, the practice is not modern.

 

[valient_Lucy]

Even beyond this, male infants would be circumcised. Did they consent to the covenant between God and Abraham?

Genesis 17:9-13

That’s true. God had no problem having children initiated into the covenant He made with Israel, who at 8 days old, could never have possibly consented to the circumcision. Quite the contrary, He commanded it. And speaking of circumcision, didn’t Paul say that circumcision prefigured baptism?

 

[Metaron]

…Ridiculous you say? Absolutely. But is there any difference between the procedure in the scenario above and what is done in the modern day practice of infant baptism? There is not one single infant upon whom the rite of baptism is pronounced, that is aware of what is taking place.

Sponsors (usually the parents) take certain vows on behalf of the babe for which there is not one shred of evidence in the New Testament authorizing such a practice. When will we learn that only those who believe and confess the name of Christ before men are viable candidates for obedience in the watery grave of baptism? (Mark 16:16; Acts 8:37).

Children in the Old Church (Judaism) were circumcized into the Jewish religion. They didn’t know what was going on, did they? And besides, whole houses were baptised in the New Testament. So there goes your theory.

 

[Markstorm]

Wow, the Catholic apologists on this site are battle-hardened warriors. I’m nowhere near your level, my friends, just want to congratulate you on a job well done.

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi

I respect your religion.
According to Catholics, Mary was conceived and Jesus was begotten. Did she consent for that?
I don’t think so.

Thanks

 

[homewardbound]

Hi

I respect your religion.
According to Catholics, Mary was conceived and Jesus was begotten. Did she consent for that?
I don’t think so.

Thanks

Actually she could have said “No Thanks” So, yes she did consent.

 

[Arnobius]

Hi

I respect your religion.
According to Catholics, Mary was conceived and Jesus was begotten. Did she consent for that?
I don’t think so.

Thanks

Luke 1: 38 And Mary said, “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

::copied::

I have a dear preacher friend who is not married. While considering his unmarried state, and the awful misery he must be experiencing, I thought it would be better if he were married. So I happened upon a plan that would accomplish my desired end, and thought I might share it with our readers.

Some afternoon, while he is sleeping, I will get some fine Christian lady to accompany me, along with the necessary witnesses, to his home.

We will quietly sneak in and, while my friend is sleeping, I will put the question to the bride-to-be: “Will you take this sleeper to be your lawful wedded husband?” She will, of course, answer, “I do.” I will then ask my sleeping brother, “Do you take this woman to be your wife?” Unable to answer for himself, we will permit the woman to answer for him. I will then pronounce them man and wife, awaken my friend and inform him of his good fortune!

Ridiculous you say? Absolutely. But is there any difference between the procedure in the scenario above and what is done in the modern day practice of infant baptism? There is not one single infant upon whom the rite of baptism is pronounced, that is aware of what is taking place.

Sponsors (usually the parents) take certain vows on behalf of the babe for which there is not one shred of evidence in the New Testament authorizing such a practice. When will we learn that only those who believe and confess the name of Christ before men are viable candidates for obedience in the watery grave of baptism? (Mark 16:16; Acts 8:37).

Let’s assume you have children.

Did you discuss with them what language woudl be their mother tongue? So you didn’t speak with them in English (I’m assuming its your language) until they decide they wanted to speak it?

Did you feed them what was good for them, or did you wait until they could pick nutricious food (or watched them starve)?

Did you not send them to school, until they decided they wanted to go (mine I told, when they said they didn’t want to go, "you’re answering a question that wasn’t asked. Get your shoes on)?

Citizenshop is a heavy responsibility. Did you communicate in utero with your child as to which country he wanted to be a citizen of, so you could move there so he could be born there?

Honor Thy Father and Thy Mother. Did you consult your child in your choice of spouse, if they wanted them as a mother/father? (oops, question only appicable to mormons).

You of course ran a Christ free household. After all, wouldn’t be fair to expose that child to all that Christian propoganda, right and wrong and all that moral stuff. Not viable candidates for obedience to Christian morality. Teaching them morals when they can’t choose is wrong, makes them responsible.

And of course, you have refused any and all medical treatment, not giving consent on their behalf. Including treatment during childbirth.

You did ask them before you begot/conceived them, no?

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Hi

I respect your religion.
According to Catholics, Mary was conceived and Jesus was begotten. Did she consent for that?
I don’t think so.

Thanks

Actually I embraced Orthodoxy for a number of years, but I only got the Theotokos’ role when arguing with a muslim on this very issue.

Yes, she consented to it all, and without the assurances of protection that Islam tradition says God gave here.

 

[paarsurrey]

Actually she could have said “No Thanks” So, yes she did consent.

Hi

Thanks for your good reply. Could you please mention the church in which this “marriage” got solemnized and the witnesses?

Please don’t mind I don’t believe that.

Thanks

 

[bpbasilphx]

Ridiculous you say? Absolutely. But is there any difference between the procedure in the scenario above and what is done in the modern day practice of infant baptism? There is not one single infant upon whom the rite of baptism is pronounced, that is aware of what is taking place.

Yes, you are ridiculous with a capitl OU.

First off, it is God Who acts in baptism.

Next, the little ones are carried to Jesus through the font of baptism on the authority of their parents’ faith.

Question: are Jewish baby boys asked if they want to be initiated into the covenant of Moses by circumcision?

 

[Arnobius]

Hi

Thanks for your good reply. Could you please mention the church in which this “marriage” got solemnized and the witnesses?

Please don’t mind I don’t believe that.

Thanks

She was married in the Jewish fashion of course. The fact that the scriptures do not record the names of who was present does not mean it did not happen.

That is an argument from silence fallacy to claim that because there is no account of something it did not happen.

 

[paarsurrey]

She was married in the Jewish fashion of course. The fact that the scriptures do not record the names of who was present does not mean it did not happen.

That is an argument from silence fallacy to claim that because there is no account of something it did not happen.

Hi

So you mean that the marriage of God (as per Catholics belief with Mary) was solemnized in a synagogue and not in a Catholic church, so you have no record of this marriage or witnesses neither in the church nor in the scriptures nor there is any account in the history/tradition about it nor any mention in the Jewish Scriptures/tradition/history, even then you are very certain about it that it did happen.

Do you agree with me?

I don’t believe this, I must say.

Thanks

 

[ralphinal]

I had my child vaccenated. He did not consent, and he did resist. I still did it. It was in his best interest.

The Christian people who are against infant baptism still take their kids to chruch with them. They don’t keep them un-churched until old enough to make the decision for themselves.

 

[Katie1723]

::copied::
While considering his unmarried state, and the awful misery he must be experiencing, I thought it would be better if he were married…

Why do you assume that his being single makes him miserable?

Kathy

 

[kell0618]

::copied::

I have a dear preacher friend who is not married. While considering his unmarried state, and the awful misery he must be experiencing, I thought it would be better if he were married. So I happened upon a plan that would accomplish my desired end, and thought I might share it with our readers.

Some afternoon, while he is sleeping, I will get some fine Christian lady to accompany me, along with the necessary witnesses, to his home.

We will quietly sneak in and, while my friend is sleeping, I will put the question to the bride-to-be: “Will you take this sleeper to be your lawful wedded husband?” She will, of course, answer, “I do.” I will then ask my sleeping brother, “Do you take this woman to be your wife?” Unable to answer for himself, we will permit the woman to answer for him. I will then pronounce them man and wife, awaken my friend and inform him of his good fortune!

Ridiculous you say? Absolutely. But is there any difference between the procedure in the scenario above and what is done in the modern day practice of infant baptism? There is not one single infant upon whom the rite of baptism is pronounced, that is aware of what is taking place.

Sponsors (usually the parents) take certain vows on behalf of the babe for which there is not one shred of evidence in the New Testament authorizing such a practice. When will we learn that only those who believe and confess the name of Christ before men are viable candidates for obedience in the watery grave of baptism? (Mark 16:16; Acts 8:37).

We are able to speak on our own behalf at our Confirmation. The following is a snippet of the statements on behalf of the Bishop and the Confirmands:

• *DO YOU REJECT SATAN, AND ALL HIS WORKS, AND ALL HIS EMPTY PROMISES?
  Candidates: I DO.
  Bishop: DO YOU BELIEVE IN GOD, THE FATHER ALMIGHTY, CREATOR
  OF HEAVEN AND EARTH?
  Candidates: I DO.
  Bishop: DO YOU BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST, HIS ONLY SON, OUR LORD, WHO WAS BORN OF THE VIRGIN MARY, WAS CRUCIFIED, DIED, AND WAS BURIED, ROSE FROM THE DEAD, AND IS NOW SEATED AT THE RIGHT HAND OF THE FATHER?
  Candidates: I DO.
  Bishop: DO YOU BELIEVE IN THE HOLY SPIRIT, THE LORD, THE GIVER OF LIFE, WHO CAME UPON THE APOSTLES AT PENTECOST AND TODAY IS GIVEN TO YOU SACRAMENTALLY IN CONFIRMATION?
  Candidates: I DO.
  Bishop: DO YOU BELIEVE IN THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH, THE COMMUNION OF SAINTS, THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS, THE RESURRECTION OF THE BODY, AND LIFE EVERLASTING?
  Candidates: I DO.
  Bishop: THIS IS OUR FAITH. THIS IS THE FAITH OF THE CHURCH. WE ARE PROUD TO PROFESS IT IN CHRIST JESUS OUR LORD.
  ALL: AMEN.

Sample of the full Rite is here

No one is sleeping during the rite nor is anyone forced to be confirmed. Many teens skip confirmation as they are not ready and decided to be confirmed later.

Peace be with you,

Kelly

 

[Arnobius]

Hi

So you mean that the marriage of God (as per Catholics belief with Mary) was solemnized in a synagogue and not in a Catholic church, so you have no record of this marriage or witnesses neither in the church nor in the scriptures nor there is any account in the history/tradition about it nor any mention in the Jewish Scriptures/tradition/history, even then you are very certain about it that it did happen.

Do you agree with me?

I don’t believe this, I must say.

Thanks

I was referring to the marriage of Joseph and Mary.

I do believe you do not have the correct understanding of the relation of God and Mary.

Perhaps we should begin by you citing where the Church teaches as you claim