"Marry Him and Be Submissive - "One Italian Wife’s Countercultural Message to Women

[BlueEyedLady]

Also, why does “great things” need to mean the stuff that you personally value (being a CEO or inventor)? Those people are very unusual, even among men. There was only one Steve Jobs, there is only one Elon Musk, etc. It really is not true that employment consists purely of the two categories you describe–female Power Point presenters versus world-changing male CEOs, Nobel prize winners and inventors.

Fortunately, this isn’t a common attitude in real life, and you’ll notice when you do encounter it that it tends to come from people who have very few personal accomplishments themselves.

People who have their own things to be proud of typically don’t try to ride on the coattails of strangers who share their basic demography. “I’m doing better than you even though you have ABC and have done XYZ because people with my genitals win more Nobel prizes” is a pretty unimpressive statement, in more ways than one.

 

[Xantippe]

F**ortunately, this isn’t a common attitude in real life, and you’ll notice when you do encounter it that it tends to come from people who have very few personal accomplishments themselves. **

People who have their own things to be proud of typically don’t try to ride on the coattails of strangers who share their basic demography. “I’m doing better than you even though you have ABC and have done XYZ because people with my genitals win more Nobel prizes” is a pretty unimpressive statement, in more ways than one.

Yep.

 

[Sarcelle]

Fortunately, this isn’t a common attitude in real life, and you’ll notice when you do encounter it that it tends to come from people who have very few personal accomplishments themselves.

People who have their own things to be proud of typically don’t try to ride on the coattails of strangers who share their basic demography. “I’m doing better than you even though you have ABC and have done XYZ because people with my genitals win more Nobel prizes” is a pretty unimpressive statement, in more ways than one.

I also find white nationalists saying the same thing. Just replace or add genitals plus race and there you have it. I have often observed that white supremacists who are male are very, very misogynistic.

 

[kozlosap]

Define “great things”. Women have been free to do pretty much what they want for over 50 years now. Where are the great companies founded and built by women? Where are the Nobel Prize winners in the hard sciences? Where are the amazing inventions one would expect from this huge infusion of human capital? Nearly non-existent.

Civilization is fragile. To survive, it doesn’t need women sitting in cubicles en-masse making PowerPoint presentations whilst strangers raise their kids. It needs them bringing up the next generation of responsible, well adjusted adults. There have always and will always be exceptions. Not everyone is called to marriage and raising a family. But I would posit that the vast majority of people who deny their gender roles (as you describe them) have failed, and they know it, at least subconsciously. It’s not for nothing that more than 1 in 4 women in the U.S. are on some type of anti depressant. I’d probably need to chomp Xanax too if I had to drop my kids off at the day care farm and head to a meaningless, soul crushing job just so I could drive a better car, have a bigger house, whatever.

I’m sorry that you feel the way you do towards millions of women that work outside the traditional housewife role. Many women with children work because it is a financial necessity for their families while others chose to work because they love their professions and feel they are making a contribution to our world. My 32 year old daughter is an attorney and has no plans of staying home. Once kids are 7 or 8 they are in school 6 hours a day so Mom or Dad isn’t needed at home all day long. There are many individuals who psychologically “need” to work outside the home and who are we to judge them? Most of us wanted our kids to have more and better experiences growing up such as Catholic schools, trips both locally and internationally, competitive sports programs and should the need arise, access to tutoring. Of course, providing your children with the ability to graduate from college or a vocational program is the biggest reason for a majority of working parents. Being a parent who works has nothing to do with gender identity. I see this as logical consequences - if you make 100K and year and your spouse makes 125K a year then there is a huge difference in how your family would live minus the 100K your salary you receive. There is nothing wrong with wanting to live in a nice neighborhood with good schools or having the ability to take your family on great trips where everyone learns and has fun together.

 

[SAVINGRACE]

Define “great things”. Women have been free to do pretty much what they want for over 50 years now. Where are the great companies founded and built by women? Where are the Nobel Prize winners in the hard sciences? Where are the amazing inventions one would expect from this huge infusion of human capital? Nearly non-existent.

You need to read more. Here are 6 female founded companies with a billion$ turnover to start with:

1. Spanx
2. Estee Lauder
3. Liquid Paper
4. Mary Kay
5. The Body Shop
6. Mo Abudu, CEO of EbonyLife TV

 

[Viki63]

Here is the link to the second book, Marry Her and Die for Her. It looks pretty good.

.

 

[TCEL]

I used to recoil at this. Now, I understand it’s not about being submissive to being disrespected, but being submissive to a mission, to helping my husband be his best self. “Sub-mission.” I can get behind that. And sure, I can definitely cut back on the criticism. The right amount of medicine is healing, but an overdose is poisonous.

It’s a conversion process. Pride is definitely cured by humility. I have the Litany of Humility on my wall for a reason. I know my worth doesn’t come from human respect anyway. However, nowhere does that imply an attitude that it’s ok to allow others to mistreat me.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

Fortunately, this isn’t a common attitude in real life, and you’ll notice when you do encounter it that it tends to come from people who have very few personal accomplishments themselves.

People who have their own things to be proud of typically don’t try to ride on the coattails of strangers who share their basic demography. “I’m doing better than you even though you have ABC and have done XYZ because people with my genitals win more Nobel prizes” is a pretty unimpressive statement, in more ways than one.

I am glad to know I’m not the only one who has noticed this tendency. I also agree with Sarcelle that the same attitude is prevalent along white supremacists.

The idea seems to be, “Well even if my life sucks, at least I know I’m inherently better than X because I’m of the superior gender/race/other demographic!”

 

[ConfusedLucy]

I’d also like to add female authors such as the Bronte sisters, female politicians (not that I’m a huge fan of the Conservatives but) UK Prime Minister Teresa May, female athletes who by definition will have had to really focus to get where they are. In addition I have had female bosses, known some wonderful female doctors and teachers. Many workplaces have service users of both sexes and an all male workforce would completely miss out on a female perspective and be all the poorer for it.

It’s also unreasonable to argue that women have had perfect equality for 50 years!

God gives us different gifts and I think we are going to better do His works by using them rather than holding ourselves up against the ideal man/woman.

 

[Elena321]

Define “great things”. Women have been free to do pretty much what they want for over 50 years now. Where are the great companies founded and built by women? Where are the Nobel Prize winners in the hard sciences? Where are the amazing inventions one would expect from this huge infusion of human capital? Nearly non-existent.

Civilization is fragile. To survive, it doesn’t need women sitting in cubicles en-masse making PowerPoint presentations whilst strangers raise their kids. It needs them bringing up the next generation of responsible, well adjusted adults. There have always and will always be exceptions. Not everyone is called to marriage and raising a family. But I would posit that the vast majority of people who deny their gender roles (as you describe them) have failed, and they know it, at least subconsciously. It’s not for nothing that more than 1 in 4 women in the U.S. are on some type of anti depressant. I’d probably need to chomp Xanax too if I had to drop my kids off at the day care farm and head to a meaningless, soul crushing job just so I could drive a better car, have a bigger house, whatever.

This is coming from the viewpoint that all women work to buy a bigger house or fund their next holiday etc.
While there’s no shortage of people like this is the world living self-absorbed lives at the same time,there are many women who work due to the cost of living.Its often necessary to have a two person income just pay the rent/mortgage of a (basic) house and buy groceries and pay bills-just to make ends meet.
I think this applies not only to Christian women but to many other women too.

 

[Elena321]

That’s a good point. Most material on gender roles are 99% pseudo-psychology. Just broad generalisations on cultural norms. Which is why I always get uneasy. To their standards, apparently I have a masculine mindset, lol.

I don’t think specific marriage advice based on gender stereotypes helpful. Every marriage is different, unlike what red pill bros and uber conservatives think. I think it would do OP good if she reads the book and take it with a grain of salt. Look at her marriage and then apply whatever it needs to be applied. If it ain’t broken, don’t fix it

I read reviews and it did have good and not so good advice, but apparently there were sentences that could have been phrased better (i think there was a sentence saying that when your husband talks to you, treat it as if God was talking to you).

I think the author does a good job of suggesting that there is a difference between males and females but I also wonder if she’s romanticising a bit.

To me,this “submission” (in the positive sense) mindset should really only be relevant if there are problems in the marriage or if the couple is “butting heads” or very different in thinking or personal relating styles.I also think if it ain’t broke,why fix it?

Where I think she’s romanticising it-for example she uses the example of Gudbrando the mountain husband who keeps “down sizing” the animal they are selling.
She uses the story to show that Gudbrando’s wife doesn’t get angry at him,berate him or criticise his decision.
This advice is good not to berate your husband,but if you had a husband that kept doing what Gudbrando did and assuming that the sale of the animals was your only livelihood,you might be loving and supportive the first few times but if he kept doing it would it be so wrong to have a gentle discussion about his decision making?

 

[Elena321]

You need to read more. Here are 6 female founded companies with a billion$ turnover to start with:

1. Spanx
2. Estee Lauder
3. Liquid Paper
4. Mary Kay
5. The Body Shop
6. Mo Abudu, CEO of EbonyLife TV

Can I add to this:

1.Kolinda Grabar Kitarovic-President of Croatia
2.Steph Lorenzo-Founder of NGO that helps prevent Human Trafficking and sexual slavery
3.Justine Flynn-Founder of organisation that gives poor communities access to clean drinking water
4.Kate Swaffer- Dementia advocate (herself has Dementia) who provides education on treating individuals with Dementia in a dignified manner
5.Lee Ho-owner of a multi million dollar commercial waste management business
6.Andrea Maison-Aboriginal leader helping to combat domestic violence in Indigenous Communities
7.Janine Allis-Founder of Boost Juice,company worth $66 million
8.Naomi Simson-Founder of company Red Balloon worth approx $20 million

 

[Sarcelle]

This is coming from the viewpoint that all women work to buy a bigger house or fund their next holiday etc.
While there’s no shortage of people like this is the world living self-absorbed lives at the same time,there are many women who work due to the cost of living.Its often necessary to have a two person income just pay the rent/mortgage of a (basic) house and buy groceries and pay bills-just to make ends meet.
I think this applies not only to Christian women but to many other women too.

I also noticed this. Especially among some women trying to make a case about being a housewife. They claim that the main motivation for a woman working outside at a paid job was to get a bigger house or get a dream vacation or for other purely selfish and materialistic reasons. Their claim may hold true for some women but not for all.

First of all, not all women are married. Second, some women have husbands who have lost employment or are disabled. Third, some married couples run a business together. My grandparents ran a store together.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

I also noticed this. Especially among some women trying to make a case about being a housewife. They claim that the main motivation for a woman working outside at a paid job was to get a bigger house or get a dream vacation or for other purely selfish and materialistic reasons. Their claim may hold true for some women but not for all.

First of all, not all women are married. Second, some women have husbands who have lost employment or are disabled. Third, some married couples run a business together. My grandparents ran a store together.

I find it sad that some people, on both sides of this debate, feel compelled to critique others’ choices in order to justify their own.

I recall a “Chaplain is In” CA Live episode, with Father Grodin, when one of the callers asked him if the Church had any rules about women not working outside the home. The caller was a convert from a Quiverfull tradition and was feeling guilty because she got an outside job, because without it the family was so poor that they couldn’t afford milk.

Obviously she did not get a job for selfish materialistic reasons.

 

[Sarcelle]

I find it sad that some people, on both sides of this debate, feel compelled to critique others’ choices in order to justify their own.

I recall a “Chaplain is In” CA Live episode, with Father Grodin, when one of the callers asked him if the Church had any rules about women not working outside the home. The caller was a convert from a Quiverfull tradition and was feeling guilty because she got an outside job, because without it the family was so poor that they couldn’t afford milk.

Obviously she did not get a job for selfish materialistic reasons.

There was a story I heard from a coworker who had ties with the Amish community. An Amish bishop got a complaint from two Amish men about an Amish woman who was wearing men’s trousers and who was on the roof fixing a leak.

The good bishop went to investigate and found that the woman’s husband was in bed sick but the roof had to get repaired. The wife ended up doing it. According to the two complaining Amish men, she was guilty of scandal for men’s trousers.

The bishop went back and castigated the men for not even bothering to help out the woman and volunteering to fix the roof for her.

So if anyone castigated a woman for working in order to afford to buy food, why not give her the money instead of giving her a hard time for working outside the home?

 

[punisherthunder]

That’s because the URL was abbreviated (note the …). Here’s the real URL:

ncregister.com/daily-news/one-italian-wifes-countercultural-message-to-women

Link still does not work. Additionally, I got an “unsafe Microsoft security certificate warning” on this page as well.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

There was a story I heard from a coworker who had ties with the Amish community. An Amish bishop got a complaint from two Amish men about an Amish woman who was wearing men’s trousers and who was on the roof fixing a leak.

The good bishop went to investigate and found that the woman’s husband was in bed sick but the roof had to get repaired. The wife ended up doing it. According to the two complaining Amish men, she was guilty of scandal for men’s trousers.

The bishop went back and castigated the men for not even bothering to help out the woman and volunteering to fix the roof for her.

So if anyone castigated a woman for working in order to afford to buy food, why not give her the money instead of giving her a hard time for working outside the home?

Stories like this remind me of Jesus castigating the Pharisees for heaping up burdens on people and not lifting a finger to help them.

Also, AFAIK there are references in the Bible about providing for widows and orphans. And certainly, options for widows to earn a living were limited back then.

Interestingly, I can’t think of any actual Bible passages that expressly forbid women from working for pay.

ETA: Also, regarding the OP: So what if a woman wants to stay home but the husband wants her to work? It seems a “submissive” woman in that case is obligated to go to work, in submission to her husband?

 

[TCEL]

ETA: Also, regarding the OP: So what if a woman wants to stay home but the husband wants her to work? It seems a “submissive” woman in that case is obligated to go to work, in submission to her husband?

Is it wrong for me to ask my husband to do certain things, and actually expect him to do it? Doesn’t this hold true in reverse? It’s too difficult to answer a question like that without knowing the relationship and the details. I don’t see what’s automatically wrong about it though, unless we have this ingrained image in our head of an oppressive man making an unreasonable request.
Jesus said if we love him, we will keep his commandments. There’s a connection between love and obedience. At any rate, this just goes to show how important it is that we, who have the freedom to choose, are prudent in our marriage choices.

Sacrifice is the language of love. Yeah, it’s pretty unpopular to say this though.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

Is it wrong for me to ask my husband to do certain things, and actually expect him to do it? Doesn’t this hold true in reverse? It’s too difficult to answer a question like that without knowing the relationship and the details. I don’t see what’s automatically wrong about it though, unless we have this ingrained image in our head of an oppressive man making an unreasonable request.
Jesus said if we love him, we will keep his commandments. There’s a connection between love and obedience. At any rate, this just goes to show how important it is that we, who have the freedom to choose, are prudent in our marriage choices.

Sacrifice is the language of love. Yeah, it’s pretty unpopular to say this though.

I actually wasn’t making any statements about whether it would be “oppressive” or “unreasonable” for a man to ask his wife to work outside the home.

I was pointing out the irony, for lack of a better word, of certain socially conservative Christians tending to assume that “being submissive” for a wife always equates to her accepting a traditional “homemaker” role. However, I do know of many working mothers who actually DO want to stay at home but keep working because their husbands want them to.

There also seems to be this assumption that a Christian husband would never dream of asking his wife to work outside the home, that it’s better for the man to work overtime, work 2 jobs, maybe even 3 jobs, that even if he puts his health at risk and hardly ever sees his wife and kids.

There are also cases of workaholic men who claim to be working hard for their families, but actually spend little time with their families, think nothing of spending money on luxuries for themselves because “I earned that money, I can do what I want with it” while leaving their family members to scrounge by as best they can on what remains.

There is a sad case of this recently brought up on this very forum.

 

[TCEL]

I actually wasn’t making any statements about whether it would be “oppressive” or “unreasonable” for a man to ask his wife to work outside the home.

I was pointing out the irony, for lack of a better word, of certain socially conservative Christians tending to assume that “being submissive” for a wife always equates to her accepting a traditional “homemaker” role. However, I do know of many working mothers who actually DO want to stay at home but keep working because their husbands want them to.

There also seems to be this assumption that a Christian husband would never dream of asking his wife to work outside the home, that it’s better for the man to work overtime, work 2 jobs, maybe even 3 jobs, that even if he puts his health at risk and hardly ever sees his wife and kids.

There are also cases of workaholic men who claim to be working hard for their families, but actually spend little time with their families, think nothing of spending money on luxuries for themselves because “I earned that money, I can do what I want with it” while leaving their family members to scrounge by as best they can on what remains.

There is a sad case of this recently brought up on this very forum.

Ok, thanks for the clarification. I don’t get the vibe from this author that she is in the ilk of “be submissive to your husband” that some of us are familiar with.