the probability of happiness for a lifetime with someone who insists you deny the most critical part of your identity are slim to noneYes, I have, thank you… I know there can be problems, but I also know that it’s possible for us to have a long and happy marriage regardless.
Anything to actually say about my questions?
The *exchange of consent *is very specific.I married in a Catholic church. We had the vows changed so that I was not lying when I made them. Not all vows in all churches are the same. You must be aware of that, right?
That’s why I asked what the lie would be. You are the one who said he’d be lieing. What lie?It’s not a sin to have a priest help you find an acceptable set of vows for the ceremony so that neither individual is lying.
That is not a vow during the wedding ceremony.Examples: I never vowed to raise my children in the Catholic faith.
That’s already not in the weddin vows.The priest said that I did not have to have this in the ceremony. .
That also is already NOT a wedding vow.At no point, furthermore, was I required to state my acceptance of the authority of the Pope.
The Marriage Rite can take place in Mass or outside of Mass. Nothing special there, as this is always an option.Furthermore, there was no Eucharist in the ceremony, but I was married in the Catholic church by a priest and my wife’s family and she were fully satisfied.
I think you are confused, because nothing you listed is an actual vow. You’ve given a lot of examples of things that are non-issues and not vows in a Catholic wedding.If this is a “sin,” then the parish fully enabled it. I can’t believe that it was a sin, but, of course, that is not for humans to have the final say on.
I am not confused at all. I am encouraging the woman to proceed and to talk to her priest about tailoring the ceremony to meet the needs of both persons. One must be careful not to ask/require/pressure a spouse to misrepresent himself/herself in the ceremony. THAT is my point.The *exchange of consent *is very specific.
The vows, which actually are not necessary for validity, can be chosen from several options, and even in some cases customized.
That’s why I asked what the lie would be. You are the one who said he’d be lieing. What lie?
That is not a vow during the wedding ceremony.
During the premarital investigation in a mixed marriage, the Catholic makes this promise. The non-Catholic is informed of it.
That’s already not in the weddin vows.
That also is already NOT a wedding vow.
The Marriage Rite can take place in Mass or outside of Mass. Nothing special there, as this is always an option.
I think you are confused, because nothing you listed is an actual vow. You’ve given a lot of examples of things that are non-issues and not vows in a Catholic wedding.
This is currently the case, but I know of a non-Catholic who married a Catholic a long time ago, and at that time it was required of him that he consent to raise the children Catholic before permission would be granted for a mixed marriage. It wasn’t part of the marriage vows, it was part of the application for the dispensation. He consented and was true to his word, but he was still upset about it decades later.During the premarital investigation in a mixed marriage, the Catholic makes this promise. The non-Catholic is informed of it.
:clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping:OP, where are you planning on having your children baptized? Where will they make their First Holy Communion? Confirmation? Where do you hope that they will marry? What does your fiance say about this? Where does he plan to be on all of these special days that take place in the confines of a Catholic church? Have you discussed this?
You are talking about marrying a Catholic, but one that is in a serious spiritual situation, one that will have an impact on your ability to practice your own faith and raise your children in the faith. I tell you this as someone married to a non-Catholic who is totally supportive of my faith and teaching our children the faith: It ain’t easy, under the best of circumstances, and yours are miles from the best.
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
**2088 **The first commandment requires us to nourish and protect our faith with prudence and vigilance, and to reject everything that is opposed to it. There are various ways of sinning against faith:
Voluntary doubt about the faith disregards or refuses to hold as true what God has revealed and the Church proposes for belief. Involuntary doubt refers to hesitation in believing, difficulty in overcoming objections connected with the faith, or also anxiety aroused by its obscurity. If deliberately cultivated doubt can lead to spiritual blindness.
2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. "Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; **schism **is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him."11
I left out these details because they’re no longer an issue. That post was from a while ago. The problems have since been worked out between my parents and my fiance.Hi. Just read all six of your posts.
In this thread, you don’t mention that your fiancee and mother are at war.
You do not mention that your parents will not attend if you do marry this man.
In fact, you’ve left out lots of relevant details.
Simply excellent advice, elizabeth.Dear flee,
I will echo Easter Joy’s concerns about the raising of children. Please do not take our word for it (again, even though I personally have considerable experience with mixed marriages). Just read any of the literature out there – not just Catholic – about “mixed” marriages. (Reiterating what others have said, your fiance is not an ex-Catholic or a non-Catholic; he is a non-practicing baptized Catholic in opposition to the Church. Technically this is not a mixed marriage, but it has all the appearances of a mixed marriage where one spouse is uncooperative.). The real crisis emerges, even if suppressed prior to this, when children come into this union, not necessarily during the pregnancy but definitely after the birth.
Let’s pretend that your husband’s negativity will have zero impact on your differently positive faith. Let’s pretend that you have a parallel reality alongside your marital union, which is your faith and your unhesitant, unapologetic attitude toward affirming it and practicing it, and that your husband’s negativity does not affect you. (Quite a stretch, but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt here. The suggestion is also problematic on its face, because of everything a Catholic marital union implies.)
That accepted, into the world comes Baby #1. Believe that there will then be a struggle, as there is for mixed marriages across the country, and over decades, about the raising of the child. Presuming you are still following your faith fervently at that time, you will not be content not to baptize and educate your child in your faith. And (sometimes, as you can read in the secular literature, including with couples neither of whom are Catholic) this tension will overflow especially into the extended families. If anything, in-laws are even more invested in the raising of the child in one of their traditions. If your family and you want the child baptized, and hubby and/or his family does not, this will be a major point of conflict between the two of you.
In fact, the birth of a child, to a non-practicing Catholic couple (where both have not been practicing) often triggers a crisis of faith or realization or reversion in one/both of them. That’s fine if the reversion or new enthusiasm is joint, but it’s taking a huge gamble if we’re talking not about lukewarmness or apathy but outright opposition/dislike of the Church, on the part of one partner.
The easiest time for a person to learn any faith is as a young child, going forward from there. That is when faith is most easily and most logically planted. Young children are receptive and intuitive, with heavy right-brain consciousness at work, promoting that faith. The literature out there about the misguided couples who “wait” or who “let the [grown] children decide” about religion shows terrible statistics for this group. Overwhelmingy, the children “choose nothing.” They are left with no intuitive sense of the divine, and without an intimate relationship with God. Yes, there are exceptions. Some of these are on CAF. But those are definitely the minority.
One of the saddest examples of all is the widely publicized example of Dr. Laura Schlesinger. She was raised as a non-practicing (“cultural”) Jew. She was determined not to repeat that for her own family. So when she had her son, she provided the whole megillah, so to speak. Further, she was deeply steeped in Orthodox practice, with women separately seated in temple, etc., with long services on Shabbat & High Holy Days, with strict observance of kosher laws. Her son’s Bar-Mitzvah occurred in Israel.
Then, when she was on Larry King (I think?) one night, she sobbed openly, when asked, about her own relationship with God and her own feelings about – not intellectual commitment to --Judaism. She admitted that all that effort with her son provided him with an organic relationship to God, but that she, Laura, is unable to pray, unable to “connect” with God, regardless of all her effort with her own son and her own ‘reversion.’ She has, she said, tragically accepted it, and it is a great pain in her life. She has resigned herself to having no personal relationship with God.
Please think about how important it is to get your fiance’s explicit (again, I would suggest in the company of a priest and/or Catholic therapist) agreement not to express or show, ever, in the presence of your children, any attitude toward the Church, your child’s education, your own religious practice, that conflicts with the child’s formation in the faith. Naturally it would be better if he showed open enthusiasm, but the former would be the least that would have to be expected in order for your children not to feel conflicted or cynical about their faith. It’s tough enough with today’s societal influences to raise a commitedly religious person, of any faith.
Thank you!Simply excellent advice, elizabeth.
Excellent. I say this as someone married to a non-Catholic who literally teaches our children the faith not as “the Church teaches this” but as “this is true.” My DH could not be more supportive. The man is a prince. When you have one life between you, though, it is hard to grow in faith and not be able to share it with your spouse. Don’t underestimate that.Dear flee,
I will echo Easter Joy’s concerns about the raising of children. Please do not take our word for it (again, even though I personally have considerable experience with mixed marriages). Just read any of the literature out there – not just Catholic – about “mixed” marriages. (Reiterating what others have said, your fiance is not an ex-Catholic or a non-Catholic; he is a non-practicing baptized Catholic in opposition to the Church. Technically this is not a mixed marriage, but it has all the appearances of a mixed marriage where one spouse is uncooperative.). The real crisis emerges, even if suppressed prior to this, when children come into this union, not necessarily during the pregnancy but definitely after the birth.
Let’s pretend that your husband’s negativity will have zero impact on your differently positive faith. Let’s pretend that you have a parallel reality alongside your marital union, which is your faith and your unhesitant, unapologetic attitude toward affirming it and practicing it, and that your husband’s negativity does not affect you. (Quite a stretch, but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt here. The suggestion is also problematic on its face, because of everything a Catholic marital union implies.)
That accepted, into the world comes Baby #1. Believe that there will then be a struggle, as there is for mixed marriages across the country, and over decades, about the raising of the child. Presuming you are still following your faith fervently at that time, you will not be content not to baptize and educate your child in your faith. And (sometimes, as you can read in the secular literature, including with couples neither of whom are Catholic) this tension will overflow especially into the extended families. If anything, in-laws are even more invested in the raising of the child in one of their traditions. If your family and you want the child baptized, and hubby and/or his family does not, this will be a major point of conflict between the two of you.
In fact, the birth of a child, to a non-practicing Catholic couple (where both have not been practicing) often triggers a crisis of faith or realization or reversion in one/both of them. That’s fine if the reversion or new enthusiasm is joint, but it’s taking a huge gamble if we’re talking not about lukewarmness or apathy but outright opposition/dislike of the Church, on the part of one partner.
The easiest time for a person to learn any faith is as a young child, going forward from there. That is when faith is most easily and most logically planted. Young children are receptive and intuitive, with heavy right-brain consciousness at work, promoting that faith. The literature out there about the misguided couples who “wait” or who “let the [grown] children decide” about religion shows terrible statistics for this group. Overwhelmingy, the children “choose nothing.” They are left with no intuitive sense of the divine, and without an intimate relationship with God. Yes, there are exceptions. Some of these are on CAF. But those are definitely the minority.
One of the saddest examples of all is the widely publicized example of Dr. Laura Schlesinger. She was raised as a non-practicing (“cultural”) Jew. She was determined not to repeat that for her own family. So when she had her son, she provided the whole megillah, so to speak. Further, she was deeply steeped in Orthodox practice, with women separately seated in temple, etc., with long services on Shabbat & High Holy Days, with strict observance of kosher laws. Her son’s Bar-Mitzvah occurred in Israel.
Then, when she was on Larry King (I think?) one night, she sobbed openly, when asked, about her own relationship with God and her own feelings about – not intellectual commitment to --Judaism. She admitted that all that effort with her son provided him with an organic relationship to God, but that she, Laura, is unable to pray, unable to “connect” with God, regardless of all her effort with her own son and her own ‘reversion.’ She has, she said, tragically accepted it, and it is a great pain in her life. She has resigned herself to having no personal relationship with God.
Please think about how important it is to get your fiance’s explicit (again, I would suggest in the company of a priest and/or Catholic therapist) agreement not to express or show, ever, in the presence of your children, any attitude toward the Church, your child’s education, your own religious practice, that conflicts with the child’s formation in the faith. Naturally it would be better if he showed open enthusiasm, but the former would be the least that would have to be expected in order for your children not to feel conflicted or cynical about their faith. It’s tough enough with today’s societal influences to raise a commitedly religious person, of any faith.