Marrying an "Army Protestant"

[Annette0723]

My fiancee was baptized “Army Protestant.” As he explains it, the Protestant church is non-denominational in the Army. He was never very religious. After we met, he began going to my church, and has expressed interest in learning more about the Catholic Church. Twice we have met with priests so that he could ask questions.

Well the deacon at my church is handling our marriage preparation and in my opinion has given him a HORRIBLE welcome. The problem is over his baptismal certificate. My fiancee is having trouble getting it, and the deacon says that the Catholic Church would not recognize an “Army Protestant” baptismal certificate anyway without a denomination. He says we need to “get around this” by having his parents write a letter that says water was used and the trinity was invoked. I know water was used as I’ve seen the picture.

I have tried to deal with the deacon for the most part. But yesterday he called my fiancee and among other things said, “This is not important to you, but it is very important to [me the fiancee].” This upset my fiancee so much, and me too, because the truth is it is extremely important to him. Its important to him because he knows how important my faith is to me. He has been more supportive of my faith than any Catholic I ever dated.

The deacon also threatened that this would not be a sacramental marriage, but did not explain what that meant to him. Which left him thinking we wouldn’t be married in the church at all.

I’ve never seen my fiancee so hurt. Does anyone know what exactly we need to submit to the bishop? The deacon quite frankly keeps giving us different answers… first he said there was a form you could submit if you didn’t have your baptismal certificate, then he said there was no form but made one up that we could possibly use, then he said to do the letter. The church secretary (who has been there my whole life) indicated there is a form, but he got mad at my fiancee for calling her instead of him. Originally he said the baptismal certificate would satisfy the requirement, now he said we probably shouldn’t submit it even if we get it because the bishop may not approve it.

Any advice??

Also a question I have is if we can’t prove that he had an accepted baptism, but he did in fact have one, would it still be a sacramental marriage? The deacon said no because you have to use different words in the ceremony,

 

[kage_ar]

Contact the Chaplain’s Office at the Army Base/Post where your husband was baptized. They will have records and will supply you with the documents you need.

The alternative without documentation is a statement from witnesses that the proper from (trinitarian) was used.

Ask your Priest to meet with you on this matter.

 

[1ke]

I hope your fiance can accept that even ordained people can have jerky personalities. Sorry the deacon is being such an idiot.

(1) The Army should be able to provide some record of the baptism through the Chaplain’s office.

(2) In absence of such a document from the Army itself, an affidavit can indeed be filled out. Since your husband was baptized as an adult, he is above the age of reason and can attest to the fact that he was baptized in the Trinitarian formula. Any witnesses to the baptism can also verify this. And, since you have a picture-- make a copy and attach it!

Regarding the comment on Sacramentality… A marriage between a baptized and unbaptized person can absolutely be valid but it is not a Sacrament. Marriage between two baptized persons is a Sacrament. Remember, baptism is the gateway to all other Sacraments.

The baptismal records matter because canon law has different requirements for a Catholic marrying a baptized non-Catholic versus a Catholic marrying a non-Christian (unbaptized person).

It doesn’t really matter if the affidavit is on some form made up by your diocese or in letter form or on a form you make up. I would get the form from the parish secretary and fill it out if you can’t get the certificate.

Perhaps you can talk to your priest and tell him how offensive the deacon is being during the marriage prep process. He needs to be talked to about his behavior AND the incorrect information that the deacon is giving you. What the deacon said about not accepting the military certificate of baptism is a complete lie. So was what he said about it not being a Sacrament if your fiance is baptized but can’t prove it. (And, his affidavit proves it, BTW).

Honestly, I’m outraged at his behavior on your behalf. What me to punch him for you???

I would not stand for this deacon’s treatment of you and your fiance. Go straight to the pastor and inform him of these actions!

 

[Lancer]

“Originally he said the baptismal certificate would satisfy the requirement, now he said we probably shouldn’t submit it even if we get it because the bishop may not approve it.”
​

The Deacon said one very important thing…it is the** Bishop** who is “The Local Church”…the diocese. Every ordained minister (pastor, vicar or deacon), every consecrated religious and each apostolate of the laity (e.g., Cursillo, Knights, Blue Army, etc.)…operating within the boundaries of the Bishop’s Local Church…operates only through and with his power and authority. Too many parish ministers act like they are the “authority”…yes, they are very important in assisting the bishop in the salvation and the care of the souls under his apostolic leadership…but the Bishop is the critical and necessary link to have the valid sacraments–apostolic succession and one (in unity) with the Bishop of Rome.

I would do (and have done in another situation) the following:1. Inform the Pastor (verbally and with a letter for the record–very important if you have to go to step 2–) that you want a meeting with him, and the Deacon (also, including your fiancee).

–to clarify the Bishop’ s and the Church’s requirements in your fiancees specific baptism record case;
–to express you displeasure at the way the Deacon has handle your case (his inconsistency sounds more his opinion rather than Bishop’s or Canon Law requirements.
–to express your displeasure at the Deacon’s pastoral style…rude and inconsiderate.

1. If the Pastor and/or the deacon refuse or try to thwart your meeting request (other than normal scheduling demands)…advise the Pastor that you will be going to the Bishop on the matter for final clarification and guidance.

As a retired Marine who dealt (in command positions) with many protestant chaplains…I do believe the Deacon is right about what he said (not how he said it) in response to what he was told by your fiancee – re: the “non-denominational baptism”…
Army Protestant Chaplains are denominational and are recruited from the numerous protestant denominations. They are** required to minister according to their faith doctrines**…so your fiancee could have been brought into the faith without baptism…as some protestant denomination doctrines do not hold to a baptismal requirement. http://www.goarmy.com/assets/images/chaplain/hd/s1_faith.gif
Army Chaplains are expected to observe the distinctive doctrines of their faith while also honoring the right of others to observe their own faith.goarmy.com/chaplain/about_army_chaplain.jsphttp://www.goarmy.com/assets/images/chaplain/hd/s1_chaplain_requirement.gif

1. 
   *]You must obtain an ecclesiastical endorsement from your faith group. This endorsement should **certify **that you are:
   1. 
      *]A clergy person in your denomination or faith group.
      *]Qualified spiritually, morally, intellectually and emotionally to serve as a Chaplain in the Army.
      *]Sensitive to religious pluralism and able to provide for the free exercise of religion by all military personnel, their family members and civilians who work for the Army.
      
      
      goarmy.com/chaplain/requirements.jsp
      ​
      So, the bottom line to me is for your fiancee to be sure that he is really baptized…not for the joining the Catholic Church or even the marriage…but for his own spiritual salvation and peace of mind…to know that he is a Christian and claimed by Christ for all eternity. If he can’t clearly prove it (does he even clearly remember that water was used with the Trinitarian Baptism form being spoken?)…then I would ask the Bishop to authorize him to be conditionally baptized…then as 1ke stated…your marriage will not only be valid…but sacramental.
      
      Lastly…FYI (fiancee) see the following #1 & #2…#3 is also very important.
      
      **Code of Canon Law (CIC 869):
      
      ** Quote:
      ** §1. If there is a doubt whether a person has been baptized or whether baptism was conferred validly and the doubt remains after a serious investigation, baptism is to be conferred conditionally.**
      **
      §2. Those baptized in a non-Catholic ecclesial community must not be baptized conditionally unless, after an examination of the matter and the form of the words used in the conferral of baptism and a consideration of the intention of the baptized adult and the minister of the baptism, a serious reason exists to doubt the validity of the baptism.**
      **
      §3. If in the cases mentioned in §§1 and 2 the conferral or validity of the baptism remains doubtful, baptism is not to be conferred until after the doctrine of the sacrament of baptism is explained to the person to be baptized, if an adult, and the reasons of the doubtful validity of the baptism are explained to the person or, in the case of an infant, to the parents.
      **
      Pax Christi

 

[Phemie]

AFAIK, an Anglican padre will baptize according to the Anglican rite and a Baptist padre will usually not baptize infants (friends of ours had to go off Base to have their baby baptized) etc.