Marrying in the U.S

[IlPapaLoyalist]

Hi, I have scheduled a Marriage to a non-US citizen. The government is taking longer than they said they would to process our paperwork. The way it works is once approved you have to marry within a 90 day time frame and they can stay. I wonder, if we marry in the Sacrament of Matrimony, then once the papers process get married civilly, would the Church do that?

The benefits and the legalities surrounding the Sacrament don’t matter to us, just the ability to bring ourselves together does. Does the Church have to put through the government paperwork as part of the ceremony?

I guess this is a legal question, but it would be sad if the Church, in the form of something so vital as Matrimony, denied two Orthodox Catholics because they were beholden to the state.

Thanks for reading and God bless you all!

 

[Sarahforgiven]

Hopefully you are already talking with your local priest & can begin to find out what the normal process is & how it may be accommodated to your situation.

 

[Wowbagger]

Disclaimer: IANACL (I am not a canon lawyer.)

The essential element of the Sacrament of Matrimony is the mutual vow, which is made verbally at the altar and physically in bed later on. Everything else, including paperwork, is icing. One would want to get the paperwork and the actual wedding aligned as closely as possible, since marriage is partly about public recognition of your commitment, but I am fairly sure they don’t need to be on the same day if there’s something getting in the way (like the U.S. immigration bureaucracy).

Talk to your priest about your options. He should know, and if he doesn’t, he’ll know whom to ask. You should be able to work something out, probably pretty easily.

 

[C_Elizabeth]

You have to have a license issued by the county where you are getting married to have a valid wedding. It’s been many years since I got one to get married so I don’t remember all of the questions, but I expect they would not issue a license if his immigration status wasn’t approved. Contact your priest as he probably knows or can find out for you. Best wishes on your marriage.

 

[tee_eff_em]

Hi, I have scheduled a Marriage to a non-US citizen. The government is taking longer than they said they would to process our paperwork. The way it works is once approved you have to marry within a 90 day time frame and they can stay. I wonder, if we marry in the Sacrament of Matrimony, then once the papers process get married civilly, would the Church do that?

The benefits and the legalities surrounding the Sacrament don’t matter to us, just the ability to bring ourselves together does. Does the Church have to put through the government paperwork as part of the ceremony?

I guess this is a legal question, but it would be sad if the Church, in the form of something so vital as Matrimony, denied two Orthodox Catholics because they were beholden to the state.

Thanks for reading and God bless you all!

IANACL either. But the law does say:

Can. 1071 §1. Except in a case of necessity, a person is not to assist without the permission of the local ordinary at:

2/ a marriage which cannot be recognized or celebrated according to the norm of civil law;

:twocents: Nothing in your question indicates anything I would call necessity. (Nor do I expect the local ordinary would supply permission, but what do I know? )

tee

 

[IlPapaLoyalist]

Well I do know that I have an aunt who’s brother got Married in a civil court but did not consecrate the marriage until later in a religious ceremony for the sake of bringing her here. I guess it can work that way I just wonder if the other way is possible.

Don’t get me wrong I’d love to make it a one day process, but as a traditionalist who understands the importance of CIVIL marriage isn’t worth the paper it is printed on, whereas the consent before God binds us for life, does not see how the Church is bound that same civil institution.

 

[Wowbagger]

Well I do know that I have an aunt who’s brother got Married in a civil court but did not consecrate the marriage until later in a religious ceremony for the sake of bringing her here. I guess it can work that way I just wonder if the other way is possible.

Don’t get me wrong I’d love to make it a one day process, but as a traditionalist who understands the importance of CIVIL marriage isn’t worth the paper it is printed on, whereas the consent before God binds us for life, does not see how the Church is bound that same civil institution.

You misunderstand, good sir. The importance of civil marriage is immense. Marriage is a fundamentally social institution (not a religious one) built on a vow that is taken before both God and the community. The Church is not “beholden” or “bound to” the State – but marriage itself is both beholden to and bound to society, whose authority is expressed through the state. There are exceptions (i.e. unjust anti-miscegenation laws), but they are rare, and that’s why the ordinary has the authority to dispense the normal, proper, and wholly good requirement that the state recognize all marriages, even if they take place under the auspices of the Sovereign Church.

Since your issue seems mainly to involve paper-shuffling and timing, rather than an actual evasion of the civil society’s authority to recognize your marriage, I figured it was no big deal – but TFM corrected me quite nicely. Amazing how much good stuff is in canon law. It still sounds like something that your bishop might tweak, seeing as you both really want to get marry and you’re literally getting held up by bureaucracy, but I don’t know the specifics and I don’t know your bishop. So ask your priest.

 

[IlPapaLoyalist]

I think you give society and the state far too much credit. If that were the case, it would be uniform through history.

I would cite the entire story of Saint Valentine(or Valentinus). The expression of the Sacrament was in secret, as only the Church bestowed such an honor on the consenting couple. The only difference now is that we won’t be persecuted for our marriage, but wait, I will, if the government has its way.

 

[Wowbagger]

St. Valentine kept performed marriages in secret because they were (at that particular moment) illegal – which was a grave injustice. But this was both abnormal and unhealthy, and, as soon as the moment passed and it was safe again to marry in public, Catholics went back to doing it. The teaching that marriage is a public institution is ancient. Moreover, marriage predates the Church.

Not sure where you’re getting this “only the Church could bestow such an honor” idea.

 

[Brendan]

Hi, I have scheduled a Marriage to a non-US citizen. The government is taking longer than they said they would to process our paperwork. The way it works is once approved you have to marry within a 90 day time frame and they can stay. I wonder, if we marry in the Sacrament of Matrimony, then once the papers process get married civilly, would the Church do that?

That is exactly what happened to my wife and I, and yes, the Church can accomodate, but it requires approval from the bishop. (see tee’s citation of Canon 1071 above, and yes, tee bishops DO give their permission in cases like this )

Our wedding happened on schedule, at the Church and my wife and I were sacramentally married, but no marriage license was filled out.

The wedding was recorded on both of our sacramental records, but not with the county as a marriage.

End result was that my wife and I were married in the eyes of God and the Church, but not in the eyes of the civil authorities.

When INS finally got around to processing the paperwork (3 months later), we had a Justice of the Peace witness the civil contract of marriage.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

The Church has “canonized” civil marriage laws. That means unless the civil laws are contrary to the Divine or ecclesiastical law the Church accepts and follows civil law. So, I do not think the Church will marry you until the state’s laws are met unless you can show they are repugnant to Church law. In my diocese it is a diocesan law that you must give at least 6 months notice of intention to marry. It is recommended that is marrying someone from overseas then you should allow much longer, e.g. at least a year.

 

[puzzleannie]

Hi, I have scheduled a Marriage to a non-US citizen. The government is taking longer than they said they would to process our paperwork. The way it works is once approved you have to marry within a 90 day time frame and they can stay. I wonder, if we marry in the Sacrament of Matrimony, then once the papers process get married civilly, would the Church do that?

The benefits and the legalities surrounding the Sacrament don’t matter to us, just the ability to bring ourselves together does. Does the Church have to put through the government paperwork as part of the ceremony?

I guess this is a legal question, but it would be sad if the Church, in the form of something so vital as Matrimony, denied two Orthodox Catholics because they were beholden to the state.

Thanks for reading and God bless you all!

you should have been working with your pastor, and shared with him all these details, all this time. See him now. He can best advise you on the pastoral and practical matters as they relate to your individual situation. What is an Orthodox Catholic? are you Orthodox, or are you Catholic? whatever the answer, see your pastor. Every diocese has an office on immigration and similar concerns whose business it is to facilitate such matters and to make sure sacramental marriage can be conferred in a timely manner. But they cannot help if you don’t ask for help.

 

[maryjk]

Have you ever read a thread and thought…

Man I hope puzzleannie comes by and see this. I bet she has dealt with something like this before.

And then you see the thread again, and ta da, she has been by?
:clapping::clapping:

you should have been working with your pastor, and shared with him all these details, all this time. See him now. He can best advise you on the pastoral and practical matters as they relate to your individual situation. What is an Orthodox Catholic? are you Orthodox, or are you Catholic? whatever the answer, see your pastor. Every diocese has an office on immigration and similar concerns whose business it is to facilitate such matters and to make sure sacramental marriage can be conferred in a timely manner. But they cannot help if you don’t ask for help.

 

[Brendan]

It is recommended that is marrying someone from overseas then you should allow much longer, e.g. at least a year.

FYI, my wife and I were engaged for 1 1/2 years. We started the process not long after. It still took INS well past our marriage to get the correct visa.

The worst part was that they approved my wife for a visa, but it was not the one we applied for (and we had copies of the initial paperwork to prove it). They granted her a visa that was for a wife entering the US, not for a person who is engaged to marry to get married in the US.

We proved to them that we submitted the paperwork for the correct visa, but it still restarted the process.

So, I do not think the Church will marry you until the state’s laws are met unless you can show they are repugnant to Church law.

No, the Church requires it’s ministers to grant the Sacraments to all those who are not barred by Canon Law. Canon Law only requires that the marriage be reconizable to the State.

In my case, and in the case in question, the issue is not if the marriage would be legally valid ( no one, even INS\USCIS would question the legality of it). What INS is concerned about is that the legal terms of the entry visa are met. Since the terms of the entry visa change when a person contracts a civil contract of marriage, THAT is what INS\USCIS are interested in.

In other words, the laws regarding marriage are met when the legal contract is made, and nothing is legally preventing the OP from entering into a civil marriage contract. The issue is what would occur with the OP’s spouse when the legal contract is entered into regarding their visa.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Hi, I have scheduled a Marriage to a non-US citizen. The government is taking longer than they said they would to process our paperwork. The way it works is once approved you have to marry within a 90 day time frame and they can stay. I wonder, if we marry in the Sacrament of Matrimony, then once the papers process get married civilly, would the Church do that?

The benefits and the legalities surrounding the Sacrament don’t matter to us, just the ability to bring ourselves together does. Does the Church have to put through the government paperwork as part of the ceremony?

I guess this is a legal question, but it would be sad if the Church, in the form of something so vital as Matrimony, denied two Orthodox Catholics because they were beholden to the state.

Thanks for reading and God bless you all!

I would think that you would have to get the cival parts taken care of first if that is not going to be done by the time you have set with the preist for your wedding then your wedding needs to be posponed. You can have a if not able to set another date with the Preist before the 90’s days expire you may have to have a cival service to statisfy the goverment then have your marriage in the church. There are places in the world that this happens every day as the goverments of those counrties do not give licence to preist to marry people so those folks have to have 2 ceremonies 1 cival and one religous. the cical one takes place first.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

FYI, my wife and I were engaged for 1 1/2 years. We started the process not long after. It still took INS well past our marriage to get the correct visa.

The worst part was that they approved my wife for a visa, but it was not the one we applied for (and we had copies of the initial paperwork to prove it). They granted her a visa that was for a wife entering the US, not for a person who is engaged to marry to get married in the US.

We proved to them that we submitted the paperwork for the correct visa, but it still restarted the process.

No, the Church requires it’s ministers to grant the Sacraments to all those who are not barred by Canon Law. Canon Law only requires that the marriage be reconizable to the State.

In my case, and in the case in question, the issue is not if the marriage would be legally valid ( no one, even INS\USCIS would question the legality of it). What INS is concerned about is that the legal terms of the entry visa are met. Since the terms of the entry visa change when a person contracts a civil contract of marriage, THAT is what INS\USCIS are interested in.

In other words, the laws regarding marriage are met when the legal contract is made, and nothing is legally preventing the OP from entering into a civil marriage contract. The issue is what would occur with the OP’s spouse when the legal contract is entered into regarding their visa.

Obviously, I know nothing about and cannot comment on your circumstances. However, it is well established that the Church does follow the civil laws of countries. Two examples: Canon Law says a female can marry at 14. English Law says females must be 16. In England & Wales the Church will not allow the marriage of 14 and 15 year old girls even though Canon Law says they can marry. English Law says marriages must be celebrated between 8.00 a.m. and 6.00 p.m. Canon Law does not say at what times marriages can take place. In the Catholic Church in England & Wales marriages only ever take place between these hours. Bishops can, of course, exempt couples from observing civil law. I believe this is not done lightly. The Church finds nothing wrong with the two English laws I’ve cited. Of course, if English law forbade Catholic weddings that would be a totally different situation.

 

[Brendan]

Obviously, I know nothing about and cannot comment on your circumstances. However, it is well established that the Church does follow the civil laws of countries. .

I agree. And there was no civil law that would prevent my wife from marrying me, nor is there in the case of the OP.

You are confusing two legal issues. The ability and right of two persons to enter into a legally valid marital contract. Canon law does require that, absent certain circumstances, that the two persons seeking the Sacrament of Marriage also be able to be civilly married. That was true for my wife and I, and is true for the OP.

If the OP gets married, no one, least of all the USCIS, would be claiming that the marriage was invalid.

So everyone is covered there, Canon Law is satisified.

On the point of immigration law, the change of visa is only required when a civil marriage has been entered into. INS could not care less about Sacraments happening, they were only concerned about civil marital contracts. That did not happen with my wife and I under 3 months after our Sacramental marriage, so immigration law was covered.

Finally, unlike some countries, the Catholic Church is not obligated to offer the Sacrament of Marriage to only those who have already entered into a marital contract ( like France), nor Church ministers obligated to witness the civil marriage at the same time as the Sacramental marriage is witnessed.

So, given all that, what civil laws were not being recognized by the Church, or what laws were not being followed?

Are you trying to claim that, in the United States, Catholic ministers are legally required to sign a Marriage License whenever they witness the Sacrament of Marriage. If so, I would like to see your citation for that law.

Are you trying to claim that any US legal party claim that my wife and I, or the OP, are not capable of entering into a civil marital contract, again I would like to see what law you are basing that one.

Bishops can, of course, exempt couples from observing civil law. I believe this is not done lightly

I agree, but my point is that the bishop made no exemption from civil law for us, as none was needed. No one violated any civil laws. What law, exactly, did you feel was being violated?

 

[Matthew_Holford]

I agree. And there was no civil law that would prevent my wife from marrying me, nor is there in the case of the OP.

You are confusing two legal issues. The ability and right of two persons to enter into a legally valid marital contract. Canon law does require that, absent certain circumstances, that the two persons seeking the Sacrament of Marriage also be able to be civilly married. That was true for my wife and I, and is true for the OP.

If the OP gets married, no one, least of all the USCIS, would be claiming that the marriage was invalid.

So everyone is covered there, Canon Law is satisified.

On the point of immigration law, the change of visa is only required when a civil marriage has been entered into. INS could not care less about Sacraments happening, they were only concerned about civil marital contracts. That did not happen with my wife and I under 3 months after our Sacramental marriage, so immigration law was covered.

Finally, unlike some countries, the Catholic Church is not obligated to offer the Sacrament of Marriage to only those who have already entered into a marital contract ( like France), nor Church ministers obligated to witness the civil marriage at the same time as the Sacramental marriage is witnessed.

So, given all that, what civil laws were not being recognized by the Church, or what laws were not being followed?

Are you trying to claim that, in the United States, Catholic ministers are legally required to sign a Marriage License whenever they witness the Sacrament of Marriage. If so, I would like to see your citation for that law.

Are you trying to claim that any US legal party claim that my wife and I, or the OP, are not capable of entering into a civil marital contract, again I would like to see what law you are basing that one.

I agree, but my point is that the bishop made no exemption from civil law for us, as none was needed. No one violated any civil laws. What law, exactly, did you feel was being violated?

The OP was asking why his marriage can be delayed by the state. I was answering that the Church would normally want to have the couple follow Church and state requirements. I have never said that any particular civil laws were being violated. You have I think misinterpreted my meanings. There is a large corpus of work by canonists showing how the Church has canonised civil law in relation to marriage and other aspects of life. However, I am making a conscious effort not to get drawn off into tangents on threads so I’m not contributing to this one any more, no matter what replies may be made to my posts.

 

[puzzleannie]

to iterate it is perfectly acceptable to first contract a civil marriage if that is dicated by the civil law where you are (which may not recognize church marriages), to comply with immigration laws or any other reason. You then arrange for a church recognized marriage as soon as you are able. What you cannot do is have marital relations until your marriage becomes valid, ie, recognized by the Church. That is why you need to see your priest to get the pastoral counselling that applies to your particular situation, now, not as an afterthought to the other arrangements.

In the United States the witness to a marriage in any religious ceremony is also the witness for the state, and so yes the civil law documents and reporting must be complied with, and so must immigration laws. That is still not a bar to couples who must marry civilly, here or elsewhere, because of an immigration situation. It merely means they may have to wait to “live as husband and wife” ie enjoy the privileges of the marriage bed in the old fashioned term, until the marriage can be witnessed by the Church. dioceses deal with these situations all the time, they don’t have to reinvent the wheel for every case.

 

[Phemie]

to iterate it is perfectly acceptable to first contract a civil marriage if that is dicated by the civil law where you are (which may not recognize church marriages), to comply with immigration laws or any other reason. You then arrange for a church recognized marriage as soon as you are able. What you cannot do is have marital relations until your marriage becomes valid, ie, recognized by the Church. That is why you need to see your priest to get the pastoral counselling that applies to your particular situation, now, not as an afterthought to the other arrangements.

I think the OP’s concern is quite the opposite. He/she has planned the wedding but the INS process is delayed and documents will not be ready in time. The OP wants a religious only wedding to be followed later by the civil marriage when the INS paperwork is completed.