Marrying someone who mustn't have children

[dulcissima]

You won’t find true hapiness trying to avoid pain in life. You will find it loving. But you won’t be able to really love without help from the “Sacramentum Caritatis”.

As one Spansih writer once wrote (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_of_the_Cross): “At the dawn of (your) life you’ll be examined in (the subject of) love.”

Serrlorca,

Thank you for sharing the story of your father and mother as well as all of your other thoughts.

 

[pemtia]

Peace,
thank you both for your responses to my question. Now and then in life, an issue like this comes up and it’s not a news story or a neighbor. No “arm chair referees” will do, because it’s not the other guy, it’s you personally. This issue in my daughter’s life is one of those times. Combining what you have said ( which is what I thought was right) with what my sister has said was creating confusion. She placed her life in God’s hands for over two years because of a heart issue. Pregnancy would have killed her. Eventually the issue was ended when she needed a hystorectomy for reasons unrelated to contraception. It seems that my daughter has fallen into a really grey area in that her motives for wanting a hystorectomy can’t help but be a little muddled.
The plain, unemotional truth of this matter is that her uterus is no longer a fully functioning organ, and the needless deaths of two human beings will occur if she becomes pregnant. Also, and unfortunately, there is also the issue of restraint on the husband’s part. Sexual relations with her now is tantamount to playing Russian roulette with her life. The strain on the relationship has already led to a civil divorce and other things I won’t go into here.
Therefore it stands to reason that she can, and should, have a hystorectomy and without fear of God’s disapproving.
Yours in Christ,
Patricia

 

[marci]

The plain, unemotional truth of this matter is that her uterus is no longer a fully functioning organ, and the needless deaths of two human beings will occur if she becomes pregnant. Also, and unfortunately, there is also the issue of restraint on the husband’s part. Sexual relations with her now is tantamount to playing Russian roulette with her life. The strain on the relationship has already led to a civil divorce and other things I won’t go into here.
Therefore it stands to reason that she can, and should, have a hystorectomy and without fear of God’s disapproving.
Yours in Christ,
Patricia

I will pray for you in this horrible situation in which you find yourself. I think the best start would be to talk with a priest about this. It’s easy to give advice about things when you are not going through them personally. People don’t always follow their high ideals when they are the ones facing danger.

Your daughter has welcomed children loving into this world. She obviously is plagued with guilt because of a well developed conscience, that leads me to believe she wants to do the moral thing. This is just my personal feeling, but I think that you and your daughter should trust in the mercy of God. Only He knows what is in our hearts. There are three other little lives that depend on her, and I don’t believe that they would not be considered by God or the church.

God Bless your family

 

[pemtia]

Peace,
and thank you Marci. We talked to two priests at different times back when everything “hit the fan”. They seemed a little hung up on the issue of why someone said no to a hysterectomy right there when it was warranted and the doctors request to perform it was denied. No one could clarify if it was Catherine who said no because of the faith, or her husband who was afraid of her reaction if he gave his permission for her hystorectomy, fearing her reaction because of her faith.
Sticky situations occur in life. It happens. This is one of those. Deeper searching into the will of God is required for stuff like this. I’m doing research in preparation for the day when she comes to me and asks me if it’s ok for her to have one now. The answer I give her will have eternal consequences for us both.
It’s hard to sit at the “big kids table” in the house of our Father.
Bless you.
yours in Christ,
Patricia

 

[marybell1961]

Has it occurred to anyone, that perhaps this woman is being called to a life of celibacy?

Perhaps the religious life?

Isn’t trying to figure out how she can have an active sex life without getting pregnant much more complicated than asking, why have I been given this condition in which I cannot bear children?

God may have much better things in mind for her, and it may not be all about this young man’s physical desires or his love for her.

 

[pemtia]

Has it occurred to anyone, that perhaps this woman is being called to a life of celibacy?

Perhaps the religious life?

Isn’t trying to figure out how she can have an active sex life without getting pregnant much more complicated than asking, why have I been given this condition in which I cannot bear children?

God may have much better things in mind for her, and it may not be all about this young man’s physical desires or his love for her.

Peace,
yes marybell, that did (naturally) cross all our minds briefly. Her solemn vows to her husband can’t be excused or passed over. Also, the issue of her sex life is one I shouldn’t go into details on as it’s not my place to do so and I don’t wish to foster scandal towards her or her husband. That being said, I have to bring up the vow that husbands and wives take promising to never say “no” to each other in that area. THAT, was one of the main reasons for her secular divorce. If a husband “occasionally” chooses his own fleeting physical pleasure over the mortal life of his wife, it’s not likely that she will be able to tolerate daily life in his presence.
She hasn’t, and may never, obtain an annullment from the church. She has a lot to think about and I ask all here to earnestly pray for God’s guidance for her.
Yours in Christ,
Patricia

 

[bluerose]

I think marybell was talking about the OP, not your daughter’s situation, Patricia. Of course I may be mistaken, but that’s the way I read it.

 

[ChangingHeart]

If a husband “occasionally” chooses his own fleeting physical pleasure over the mortal life of his wife, it’s not likely that she will be able to tolerate daily life in his presence.

It’s a real shame that you view the male sex drive in that manner.

Take a case where a man got into an accident and hurt his jaw so severely that, while he could talk, it could potentially lead to intense bleeding that would kill him. Say his wife wants to have a conversation, like, oh, get him to say the words “I love you.” Is that fair to say that the wife is choosing her own fleeting pleasures over the mortal life of her husband?

Men draw intimacy through the conjugal act. It is not merely about “fleeting physical pleasure.” Thus, a man who has a wife who won’t give him sex is going to be far more miserable in a marriage than a woman who is annoyed that her husband keeps asking for sex.

 

[bluerose]

It’s a real shame that you view the male sex drive in that manner.

Take a case where a man got into an accident and hurt his jaw so severely that, while he could talk, it could potentially lead to intense bleeding that would kill him. Say his wife wants to have a conversation, like, oh, get him to say the words “I love you.” Is that fair to say that the wife is choosing her own fleeting pleasures over the mortal life of her husband?

Men draw intimacy through the conjugal act. It is not merely about “fleeting physical pleasure.” Thus, a man who has a wife who won’t give him sex is going to be far more miserable in a marriage than a woman who is annoyed that her husband keeps asking for sex.

My BIL would beg to differ. His wife was diagnosed with Primary Pulmonary Hypertension–an incurable and ultimately fatal disease. The medications she was on (being administered directly into her heart via catheter) would cause severe mental and physical handicaps to any children she might conceive, which was moot since her heart and lungs were so damaged, the chances that she would even survive a pregnancy were practically zilch. To that effect, since she could not take birth control pills nor could her heart stand a surgical sterilization procedure, my BIL was told it would be best if he had a vasectomy.

He refused. He refused on the grounds that his and his wife’s eternal souls would be jeopardized for a few moments of physical pleasure and that their children deserved a good example of what marital love really meant–self-sacrifice–and that true love can be expressed in ways other than sexual ones. For months, HE mixed her medicines, administered them through the catheter, cooked (she was on oxygen and couldn’t be near open flames), kept her catheter cleaned, monitored her heart and lung functions, drove her 300 miles twice a month to dr.s’ appointments, did the grocery shopping, cleaned house, AND kept a full time job while helping raise their three children. And since the oxygen deprivation had destroyed her vocal cords, HE (nor their children) didn’t get to hear her say, “I love you” all that much either.

I wonder how many people in “healthy” marriages have the level of intimacy that my BIL and his wife shared. She’s been gone five years now, but he wouldn’t have traded one moment spent caring for her during her final months for five year’s worth of “safe sex” her doctor had recommended.

 

[ChangingHeart]

My BIL would beg to differ. His wife was diagnosed with Primary Pulmonary Hypertension–an incurable and ultimately fatal disease. The medications she was on (being administered directly into her heart via catheter) would cause severe mental and physical handicaps to any children she might conceive, which was moot since her heart and lungs were so damaged, the chances that she would even survive a pregnancy were practically zilch. To that effect, since she could not take birth control pills nor could her heart stand a surgical sterilization procedure, my BIL was told it would be best if he had a vasectomy.

He refused. He refused on the grounds that his and his wife’s eternal souls would be jeopardized for a few moments of physical pleasure and that their children deserved a good example of what marital love really meant–self-sacrifice–and that true love can be expressed in ways other than sexual ones. For months, HE mixed her medicines, administered them through the catheter, cooked (she was on oxygen and couldn’t be near open flames), kept her catheter cleaned, monitored her heart and lung functions, drove her 300 miles twice a month to dr.s’ appointments, did the grocery shopping, cleaned house, AND kept a full time job while helping raise their three children. And since the oxygen deprivation had destroyed her vocal cords, HE (nor their children) didn’t get to hear her say, “I love you” all that much either.

I wonder how many people in “healthy” marriages have the level of intimacy that my BIL and his wife shared. She’s been gone five years now, but he wouldn’t have traded one moment spent caring for her during her final months for five year’s worth of “safe sex” her doctor had recommended.

That is a touching story. He is a great man, and exemplifies how a husband and father should be, setting positive examples of love. This, however, was something that out of love, he freely consented to, to his credit.

That doesn’t change anything I said, though. I stated a comparison, not an absolute.

 

[pemtia]

Dear ChangingHeart,
I have read all that you have written and haven’t commented one time because it seemed that others were explaining this issue to you in as many ways as they could to try to help you see it more clearly. But now you have commented on something I was discussing, and I will try to put it into a new prospective.

It’s a real shame that you view the male sex drive in that manner.
**Here, you allude to your view that the sex drive of every created human being is a thing that has rights, and needs. As if other considerations in life must give way to it because it’s more important. It’s not just a shame, it’s a dangerous attitude. The sexual urge in man, like every other natural urge, was corrupted by Original sin. All of our natural urges now tend toward ourselves, our own personal pleasure, and they tend to disregard the wishes of others. Sometimes even to the point of preferring our will to the legitimate rights of others. We are "self"ish. **
Take a case where a man got into an accident and hurt his jaw so severely that, while he could talk, it could potentially lead to intense bleeding that would kill him. Say his wife wants to have a conversation, like, oh, get him to say the words “I love you.” Is that fair to say that the wife is choosing her own fleeting pleasures over the mortal life of her husband?
The answer to this question is in the heart of anyone who has the grace of God to hear it. What kind of love would prefer three spoken words for it’s own pleasure, to the continued company of the person who spoke them?
Answer; a truly, very deeply "self"ish love. "I want you to make me happy for a moment, I don’t care if it costs you your life to do so and that I’ll never see you again. All you are to me is a way for me to make myself experience pleasant things."
Men draw intimacy through the conjugal act. It is not merely about “fleeting physical pleasure.” Thus, a man who has a wife who won’t give him sex is going to be far more miserable in a marriage than a woman who is annoyed that her husband keeps asking for sex.

And finally, you speak again of the man, his feelings, his wants and desires for himself. You say he will be more miserable than his wife. However, if you put yourself in the wifes place, now you are the one doing all the giving and he the taking. You live day to day with the slowly dawning realization that he doesn’t truly care about you, only about himself. That your very earthly life is in his hands and he can’t be trusted with it. He’s going to kill you and go on happily with his own life seeking someone else to fulfill his “urges”. That’s not annoying, that’s terrifying.
ChangingHeart, honey, we don’t live in a movie. True love between a man and a woman involves levels of sacrifice that seem to elude you.
True love buys roses, has long walks on the beach and endless loving conversation. You’re right, that is some of it. But, true love also proves itself to be true. True love walks away from self and toward the other. It happily works ten hour days because the object of it’s affection mentioned in passing how much they admired something they saw in a store. It sits up all night holding back wet strands of hair as the object of it’s love throws up from chemo treatments. It visits it’s beloved every day in the nursing home on the off chance that “maybe today they’ll know I’m there, and that might give them comfort.”
True love can only be discovered by conquering love of yourself.

 

[ChangingHeart]

And finally, you speak again of the man, his feelings, his wants and desires for himself. You say he will be more miserable than his wife. However, if you put yourself in the wifes place, now you are the one doing all the giving and he the taking. You live day to day with the slowly dawning realization that he doesn’t truly care about you, only about himself. That your very earthly life is in his hands and he can’t be trusted with it. He’s going to kill you and go on happily with his own life seeking someone else to fulfill his “urges”. That’s not annoying, that’s terrifying.

Apparently, you see sex as strictly a favor that a wife does for her husband, to satisfy his lust, and not a Godly ordained unitive and procreative process of love and mutual submission.

Nevertheless, I see your point regarding this specific case, and must concede that you are right and I am wrong, as far as this SPECIFIC situation is concerned. In general, though, I would be right.

 

[serrlorca]

Thank you, bluerose, for sharing with us the story of your BIL’s.

I pray your familly.

God Bless you.

 

[bluerose]

This, however, was something that out of love, he freely consented to, to his credit.

My bad. I thought that’s how marital intimacy was supposed to be like as well.

 

[pemtia]

This, however, was something that out of love, he freely consented to, to his credit.

That doesn’t change anything I said, though. I stated a comparison, not an absolute.

Peace,
ChangingHeart, everyone here is trying to help you see that in true love there is no comparison. WE are speaking in absolutes.
yours in Christ,
Patricia

 

[ChangingHeart]

ChangingHeart, everyone here is trying to help you see that in true love there is no comparison. WE are speaking in absolutes.
yours in Christ,
Patricia

Granted, but how often does true love happen in marriages these days? The divorce rate is skyrocketing. We need to dispel certain myths, like the notion that every time a man asks his wife for sex he is being, “selfish.” If women think that way about their husbands, then women are going to feel very unloved and underappreciated.

 

[marybell1961]

Dear Changing Heart,

you say

“but the Church teaching has crushed my hopes and dreams.”…

please allow me to offer that when your hopes and dreams are contrary to Church magesterial teaching, the problem does not lie with the teaching, but with the hopes and dreams themselves.

God never calls someone to a life that “crushes hopes and dreams”, unless that is necessary to clear a path for the hopes and dreams he has in store for you - which are immeasurably better in every way than anything you can possibly hope of or dream for.

God is Love. Love never fails…

I just buried my husband today. I could look at that as crushing my hopes and dreams, but all I know teaches me that God has hopes and dreams for me that are far beyond anything I could come up with on my own.

Trust in God with your whole heart, and lean not upon your own understanding!

peace, grace, and love to you

 

[pemtia]

Dear marybell,
(((hugs you))) bless your heart! I’m so sorry to hear that. May God bless you and your family and grant you peace of heart today and in the days to come.
“Eternal rest grant unto him oh Lord, and let perpetual light shine upon him. May the souls of the faithful departed rest in peace.”

your sister in Christ,
Patricia

 

[bluerose]

Granted, but how often does true love happen in marriages these days? The divorce rate is skyrocketing. We need to dispel certain myths, like the notion that every time a man asks his wife for sex he is being, “selfish.” If women think that way about their husbands, then women are going to feel very unloved and underappreciated.

No one is suggesting that EVERY time a man asks for sex he is being “selfish”. But if the woman he is asking it from has a condition or illness that MIGHT carry the risk of a death, is he not being selfish in asking it from her? If a man was warned by his doctor that having sex could trigger a fatal heart attack or stroke, woudn’t his wife be considered selfish if she asked him to disregard the doctor’s advice and have sex so she could express her love?

 

[davidv]

Granted, but how often does true love happen in marriages these days? The divorce rate is skyrocketing. We need to dispel certain myths, like the notion that every time a man asks his wife for sex he is being, “selfish.” If women think that way about their husbands, then women are going to feel very unloved and underappreciated.

True love happens today, as it always has, in total self-giving. It took my wife nearly 25 years of showing me how, before I caught on. Thank God for her patience.