Marshall Mcluhan's conversion

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Correct. As in Ronald Knox.

Or Anglican ---------->Anglican: C.S. Lewis, Dorothy L. Sayers, Charles Williams

Or Roman Catholic ---------->Roman Catholic: Hilaire Belloc, J.R.R. Tolkien

Or Methodist ---------> Roman Catholic: Arnold Lunn

GKC

Patterns are always illuminating. What works of Charles Williams would you recommend?

God bless

 

[GKC]

Patterns are always illuminating. What works of Charles Williams would you recommend?

God bless

Williams is probably the most problematic of the authors I collect. But I would suggest his DESCENT OF THE DOVE or maybe THE IMAGE OF THE CITY. His Arthurian poetry is hard to follow; took me three times to get into it.

I am most fond of his seven novels, which he called “spiritual thrillers” and esp. THE PLACE OF THE LION and THE GREATER TRUMPS. Tim Powers, a RC SF/fantasy writer whom I esteem highly, says that Williams was an influence on him. It shows; see Powers’ DECLARE. DECLARE also shows the influence of Chesterton, Lewis, Karl May, John Le Carre, John Buchan, and H. P. Lovecraft (which combination ought to stir someone’s interest).

GKC

 

[tomarin]

McLuhan was appreciative of Chesterton’s metaphysics, to the scornful exclusion of his more poetic, and (as he said ) the “more hyperbolic descriptive parts of Chesterton’s prose”. McLuhan was partially blind in looking at Chesterton, fatally so, for his grasp of the man as a whole, however peceptive his appreciation of the metaphysics might be.

I hope he wasn’t scornful of Chesterton’s detective stories. I tend to be scornful of detective stories in general but find Chesteron’s pretty entertaining.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

I honestly think Marshall McLuhan is one of the brightest people that ever lived and he was devout Catholic. I learned that he was agnostic and converted to Catholicism–and being agnostic myself–I was very curious why such a genius would become Catholic of all things. So I read “The Medium and the Light” and I found my answer. He wrote:

“Had I not encountered Chesterton I would have remained agnostic for many years at least. Chesterton did not convince me of religious truth, but he prevented my despair from becoming a habit or hardening into misanthropy. He opened my eyes to European culture and encouraged me to know it more closely. He taught me the reasons for all that in me was blind anger and misery.”

It seems by studying G. K. Chesterton, Thomas Aquinas, and James Joyce he inevitably converted. But it doesn’t say exactly what convinced him of that religious truth, just what opened him up to it… which brings me to my question.

How loosely can Catholicism be interpreted? Surely as a convert he struggled with some of what the Bible says and surely he didn’t interpret everything literally. But at the same time if you start questioning Catholic teaching too liberally, doesn’t that just make you a protestant? I though Catholicism was one of those things you swallowed the whole pill or not at all… no derivatives? Maybe I’m wrong.

Chesterton said, paraphrasing, that the rules of Catholicism are such that they permit good things to run wild.

 

[tomarin]

I don’t think so, GKC. Sorry to let ya down, I’m just not a fan, never have been. My buddy worships the guy and tried to get me hooked. Didn’t grab me. GKC’s buddy Belloc didn’t grab me either. He couldn’t have grabbed you too much either! You didn’t convert like he did! You’re still an Anglican. Were he more compelling and convincing, I think you’d be praying some Ave Marias and going to confession with Father O’Malley right now! But alas, you’re still an Anglican.

Chesterton was a man of letters who was also a unique, larger-than-life character, like his contemporaries Belloc and George Bernard Shaw. That’s what I find intriguing about him. I don’t expect everyone to take to his writing, and I certainly don’t want him treated like a plaster saint, but his ideas have had a strong effect on my life and my personal convictions. I wish I had discovered him much earlier, and I wish his work were more widely known. “The Apostle of Common Sense” is a pretty good way of describing him.

As for the rest of your post, not everyone who admires Chesterton converts to Catholicism. Take C.S. Lewis for example.

 

[GKC]

I hope he wasn’t scornful of Chesterton’s detective stories. I tend to be scornful of detective stories in general but find Chesteron’s pretty entertaining.

I systematically collect many detective authors. In particular, John Dickson Carr, and in particular particular, those books by Carr in which his series detective is Dr. Gideon Fell. Who is based on Chesterton.

McLuhan makes one reference to Fr. Brown, in a way that could be taken as approving.

GKC

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Williams is probably the most problematic of the authors I collect. But I would suggest his DESCENT OF THE DOVE or maybe THE IMAGE OF THE CITY. His Arthurian poetry is hard to follow; took me three times to get into it.

I am most fond of his seven novels, which he called “spiritual thrillers” and esp. THE PLACE OF THE LION and THE GREATER TRUMPS. Tim Powers, a RC SF/fantasy writer whom I esteem highly, says that Williams was an influence on him. It shows; see Powers’ DECLARE. DECLARE also shows the influence of Chesterton, Lewis, Karl May, John Le Carre, John Buchan, and H. P. Lovecraft (which combination ought to stir someone’s interest).

GKC

Thanks GKC. I was reading the description of some of Williams’ works on Amazon. Descent Into Hell and *All Hallows’ Eve *sounded interesting. I will look into your recommendations as well.

God bless

 

[GKC]

Thanks GKC. I was reading the description of some of Williams’ works on Amazon. Descent Into Hell and *All Hallows’ Eve *sounded interesting. I will look into your recommendations as well.

God bless

DESCENT INTO HELL is generally considered his best. Not by me.

GKC

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Chesterton was a man of letters who was also a unique, larger-than-life character, like his contemporaries Belloc and George Bernard Shaw. That’s what I find intriguing about him. I don’t expect everyone to take to his writing, and I certainly don’t want him treated like a plaster saint, but his ideas have had a strong effect on my life and my personal convictions. I wish I had discovered him much earlier, and I wish his work were more widely known. “The Apostle of Common Sense” is a pretty good way of describing him.

As for the rest of your post, not everyone who admires Chesterton converts to Catholicism. Take C.S. Lewis for example.

Hi Tomarin,

If you don’t mind me asking, what ideas and concepts of Chesterton have primarily impacted you? You talked about his insights and ideas affecting your convictions. I’d love to hear which ideas those are. I also know that not everyone who reads Chesterton converts. I was kidding with GKC. I’m just teasing my Anglican buddy…

I’m also not a C.S. Lewis fan either. I’m a Tolkien guy. As they say, to each his own!

 

[GKC]

Hi Tomarin,

If you don’t mind me asking, what ideas and concepts of Chesterton have primarily impacted you? You talked about his insights and ideas affecting your convictions. I’d love to hear which ideas those are. I also know that not everyone who reads Chesterton converts. I was kidding with GKC. I’m just teasing my Anglican buddy…

I’m also not a C.S. Lewis fan either. I’m a Tolkien guy. As they say, to each his own!

I’m a Tolkien guy too. I’m probably the only person you will speak to today who first read the LOTR in 1965. Backwards (RETURN, TOWERS, FELLOWSHIP).

Went on to collect him as I do Lewis , etc.

To each his own, and almost all of themaremy own.

GKC

 

[tomarin]

If you don’t mind me asking, what ideas and concepts of Chesterton have primarily impacted you? You talked about his insights and ideas affecting your convictions. I’d love to hear which ideas those are.

The short version is that his book “Orthodoxy” and to a lesser extent his book on eugenics taught me to question the cult of progress, which prior to that held a strong grip on my mind, at the level of an unconsious assumption more than an explicit belief.

 

[tomarin]

I guess what I took away from “Orthodoxy” in particular was the idea that people living in the past may not have been as dumb or benighted as we tend to treat them today. Or as Chesterton put it (I’m paraphrasing): democracy means granting that a man may have a valid opinion, even if he is your valet; tradition means granting that a man may have a valid opinion, even if he is your father.

 

[tomarin]

Correction: I think it was “a man may have a valid opinion even if he is your groom” …

 

[GKC]

Correction: I think it was “a man may have a valid opinion even if he is your groom” …

Groom, yes. We should not neglect a good man’s opinion. ORTHODOXY, chap. IV, p. 83, John Lane ed.

GKC

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I’m a Tolkien guy too. I’m probably the only person you will speak to today who first read the LOTR in 1965. Backwards (RETURN, TOWERS, FELLOWSHIP).

Went on to collect him as I do Lewis , etc.

To each his own, and almost all of themaremy own.

GKC

As much as I like Tolkein, there are things I have to admit. I skipped through much of the Treebeard dialogues in The Two Towers. That was about as torturous as possible! Hearing the history of these talking trees was pretty dang rough! LOL…Also, after reading about twenty of the poems in those books, I started skipping the Elvish-style poetry. Tedious lol…

My criticism of Tolkien was how he never used any descriptive narrative in his battles. There would be this great buildup to a battle and then it’s over in two pages without as much as a flicker of adjective lol…rarely do I criticize an author for a lack of violent imagery but Return of the King was woefully lacking in the violence department! LOL…

The Two Towers was my least favorite. I liked the movie better than the book and that’s a rarity!

The Hobbit is awesome. Fellowship was my favorite…

I loved reading about how Tolkien was one of those staunch hold-out Catholics who refused to accept Vatican II and an English liturgy. His son said that they went to Mass and the priest said, “The Lord be with you!” and Tolkien barked out “et cum spiritu tuo!” lol and he would reply the entire Mass in Latin lol…hilarious

I’m impressed, Jim, that you read the Hobbit in 1965! Wow! I’m 34 years old so I was born ten years after you read it! LOL

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I guess what I took away from “Orthodoxy” in particular was the idea that people living in the past may not have been as dumb or benighted as we tend to treat them today. Or as Chesterton put it (I’m paraphrasing): democracy means granting that a man may have a valid opinion, even if he is your valet; tradition means granting that a man may have a valid opinion, even if he is your father.

Great points indeed. I agree.

 

[GKC]

As much as I like Tolkein, there are things I have to admit. I skipped through much of the Treebeard dialogues in The Two Towers. That was about as torturous as possible! Hearing the history of these talking trees was pretty dang rough! LOL…Also, after reading about twenty of the poems in those books, I started skipping the Elvish-style poetry. Tedious lol…

My criticism of Tolkien was how he never used any descriptive narrative in his battles. There would be this great buildup to a battle and then it’s over in two pages without as much as a flicker of adjective lol…rarely do I criticize an author for a lack of violent imagery but Return of the King was woefully lacking in the violence department! LOL…

The Two Towers was my least favorite. I liked the movie better than the book and that’s a rarity!

The Hobbit is awesome. Fellowship was my favorite…

I loved reading about how Tolkien was one of those staunch hold-out Catholics who refused to accept Vatican II and an English liturgy. His son said that they went to Mass and the priest said, “The Lord be with you!” and Tolkien barked out “et cum spiritu tuo!” lol and he would reply the entire Mass in Latin lol…hilarious

I’m impressed, Jim, that you read the Hobbit in 1965! Wow! I’m 34 years old so I was born ten years after you read it! LOL

I first read the HOBBIT, LORD OF THE RINGS, and the TOLKIEN READER, all between 1965 and 1966, and kept going. I think my total on LOTR was 11 readings through the 3 titles. Bought the first book length study of Tolkien, THE TOLKIEN RELATION/WIlliam Ready, in 1968. It stunk.

And I love the poetry (Gil-galad was an Even King.

Of him the harpers sadly sing

The last whose realm was fair and free

Between the Mountains and the Sea.)

Tolkien’s my man. So are they all, my men.

GKC

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I first read the HOBBIT, LORD OF THE RINGS, and the TOLKIEN READER, all between 1965 and 1966, and kept going. I think my total on LOTR was 11 readings through the 3 titles. Bought the first book length study of Tolkien, THE TOLKIEN RELATION/WIlliam Ready, in 1968. It stunk.

And I love the poetry (Gil-galad was an Even King.

Of him the harpers sadly sing

The last whose realm was fair and free

Between the Mountains and the Sea.)

Tolkien’s my man. So are they all, my men.

GKC

I liked some of the poetry but after a while I just blew through some of it because it bogged me down too much lol…

I actually think it’s cool when they have poetry and fictional quotes at the beginning of the chapters. I don’t know if you have read Frank Herbert, my character screen name’s maker )) but all the Dune books as well as many of his other books open each chapter with a fictional philosophized quote from one of his characters. Some people consider “Dune” a Lord of the Rings set in the desert lol…heaven knows the mythology is about as deep!

 

[GKC]

I liked some of the poetry but after a while I just blew through some of it because it bogged me down too much lol…

I actually think it’s cool when they have poetry and fictional quotes at the beginning of the chapters. I don’t know if you have read Frank Herbert, my character screen name’s maker )) but all the Dune books as well as many of his other books open each chapter with a fictional philosophized quote from one of his characters. Some people consider “Dune” a Lord of the Rings set in the desert lol…heaven knows the mythology is about as deep!

I read the first 3 Dune books.

GKC

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I read the first 3 Dune books.

GKC

I liked Dune, Messiah, and Children. They were all good. I liked God Emperor, too. Heretics and Chapterhouse were tedious and weird, even for Herbert!