martial sex

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If one gets confused, it is one’s own issue, not the issue of those one is “being confused by”.
FWIW, it took me a long time to understand how the Church “thinks.” I would compare it to a computer language, where there are set parameters (the “Truth”), and the programmer and/or user must work within those parameters. Coding and/or data can be put in the program to see how it works. If the coding/data conforms, it works. If not, it crashes…and there’s been a lot of crashing in this thread. 😉
 
FWIW, it took me a long time to understand how the Church “thinks.” I would compare it to a computer language, where there are set parameters (the “Truth”), and the programmer and/or user must work within those parameters. Coding and/or data can be put in the program to see how it works. If the coding/data conforms, it works. If not, it crashes…and there’s been a lot of crashing in this thread. 😉
Yep…I’ve had my head spin around and around as well trying to grasp this type of stuff…especially the particular topic here. Not only have I learned more than I could have imagined since coming to this site…but I feel like my eyebrows have gotten quite the workout trying to figure out what in the heck Pope [whichever one happens to be the star of the particular topic] was actually saying. :ehh: 🙂
 
Mickey is orthodox what can explain one part of his point of view about foreplay, in the context of marital act.

The body of male is not dirty, not unclean.
The body of female is not dirty, not unclean. The periods of woman are not unclean or dirty, like in the old testament.

The notion of " Porneia" is not the same. The objectivation of sex and of the sexuality is not the same, and is not, in the same line.

The orthodoxy is not the catholicism

ETC.
 
Allow me to bring it back to the forefront. We are dicussing whether, as you and others have asserted, oral stimulation of the genitals is "sodomy". I have taken it a step further and said that even anal stimulation leading to natural intercourse is ont sodomy. So far, I have provided an authentic and official Catholic definition of sodomy that backs up the position of those who do not beleive suich acts are sodomy. You and others who believe such acts are sodomy have offered ZERO Catholic sources to support you position…only opinions and a secular definition. (This is where ValPal brought up the fact that we can’t rely always on secualr definitions and you called it a red herring.)

The poster fpt has asked some excellent questions that deserve careful consideration. I would suggest that if you are tired of arguing with me or ValPal or TheWanderer, or VertiasLuxMea, then you should focus on fpt’s questions.

If one gets confused, it is one’s own issue, not the issue of those one is “being confused by”.
If I may, and I mean this with all due respect, I think you are trying more to be right than you are trying to see another point of view
I never said that. I never espoused that. Therein lies the answer to all of the confusion. You’ve been attacking me for a position I have never held. I think an apology is in order. :mad:

I had no idea that this is what you were after me about, because you’ve never bothered in all of the previous posts to tell me what you were refuting.

“I think you are trying more to be right than you are trying to see another point of view” No, I’m quite sure that’s you. This has been the strawman all along.
 
About the marital act (before, during and after the union of bodies), we need to purify our brain, our reason, our beliefs, our mentalities, our intellectual approaches for thinking on sex, our cultures, our education, our instruction, our own thought…etc.

For that, the solution is the objective and realistic philosophy with the personalism and the phenomenology and is to try to avoid heresies and ideologies who are officialy banned by the catholic church and to know why and which part (the nature, the essence or only one part of all, only the abuses, excess).

A wrong act by nature, the definition is largo sensu, or stricto sensu? Only, the official doctrine, not more not less. The method of interpretation has to be very catholic (no heresy and no ideology , directly and indirectly). In the doubt, the solution is that it is moral, per se.
 
Dearly beloved friends,

Cordial greetings and a very good day.

Those presently browsing this thread may find that the following alternative viewpoint has the ring of truth much more than the one enthusiastically espoused by several contributors:

"Oral Sex in Marriage

“Now, Lord, You know that I take this wife of mine not because of lust, but for a noble purpose” - Tobit 8: 7

Many Christian marriages are breaking up, as if their unity in Christ was no more binding than the attachments of a secular marriage. Moreover, many Christian marriages are struggling to survive. One practice that contributes to the weakening of marriages is oral sex as part of foreplay in sexual relations. By oral sex, I am refering to oral-genital contact between spouses. There is no authoritative teaching of the Catholic Church permitting or forbidding oral sex as part of foreplay preceding normal marital sexual relations. Pope Pius XII taught: “The Creator Himself…established that in the [generative] function, spouses should experience pleasure and enjoyment of body and spirit. Therefore, the spouses do nothing evil in seeking this pleasure and enjoyment. They accept what the Creator has intended for them. At the same time, spouses should know how to keep themselves within the limits of just moderation” (quoted in The Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2362). The question is: “Is oral sex as foreplay ‘within the limits of just moderation’?” There are reasons to believe that it is not and is therefore damaging to true marital love.

First, oral sex is not natural. It is contrary to natural law. If oral sex is OK, then are anal sex or nasal sex also OK? There must be some natural parameters to sexual expression. Otherwise, we have little reason not to permit homosexual activity or even sex between humans and animals. Something must be natural, and therefore other things unnatural.

Second, I have been asked to counsel over a hundred married couples about oral sex as foreplay. After some time of discernment, not one has maintained that oral sex was a true expression of love. The motivation behind oral sex is often lust. The spouse is not the focus of the sexual foreplay; rather, sexual stimulation is the focus. It could almost be said that one spouse is having sex with sex rather than with the other spouse. This focus on sex rather than on the spouse is a poison to love and marriage.

Pray about this: “A man will reap only what he sows. If he sows in the field of the flesh, he will reap a harvest of corruption; but if his seed-ground is the Spirit, he will reap everlasting life” (Gal. 6: 7-8).

Nihil Obstat: Reverend Robert J. Buschmiller, February 1, 1996
Imprimatur: Most Reverend Carl K. Moeddel, Vicar General and Auxiliary Bishop of the Archdiocese of Cincinnati, February 5, 1996

The Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur are a declaration that a book or pamphlet is considered to be free from doctrinal and moral error. It is not implied that those who have granted the Nihil Obstat or Imprimatur agree with the contents, opinions or statements expressed."

Presentation Ministries

God bless, my dear friends, and thankyou for taking time to read this.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax:tiphat:
 
Dearly beloved friends,

Cordial greetings and a very good day.

Those presently browsing this thread may find that the following alternative viewpoint has the ring of truth much more than the one enthusiastically espoused by several contributors:

"Oral Sex in Marriage

“Now, Lord, You know that I take this wife of mine not because of lust, but for a noble purpose” - Tobit 8: 7

Many Christian marriages are breaking up, as if their unity in Christ was no more binding than the attachments of a secular marriage. Moreover, many Christian marriages are struggling to survive. One practice that contributes to the weakening of marriages is oral sex as part of foreplay in sexual relations. By oral sex, I am refering to oral-genital contact between spouses. There is no authoritative teaching of the Catholic Church permitting or forbidding oral sex as part of foreplay preceding normal marital sexual relations. Pope Pius XII taught: “The Creator Himself…established that in the [generative] function, spouses should experience pleasure and enjoyment of body and spirit. Therefore, the spouses do nothing evil in seeking this pleasure and enjoyment. They accept what the Creator has intended for them. At the same time, spouses should know how to keep themselves within the limits of just moderation” (quoted in The Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2362). The question is: “Is oral sex as foreplay ‘within the limits of just moderation’?” There are reasons to believe that it is not and is therefore damaging to true marital love.

First, oral sex is not natural. It is contrary to natural law. If oral sex is OK, then are anal sex or nasal sex also OK? There must be some natural parameters to sexual expression. Otherwise, we have little reason not to permit homosexual activity or even sex between humans and animals. Something must be natural, and therefore other things unnatural.

Second, I have been asked to counsel over a hundred married couples about oral sex as foreplay. After some time of discernment, not one has maintained that oral sex was a true expression of love. The motivation behind oral sex is often lust. The spouse is not the focus of the sexual foreplay; rather, sexual stimulation is the focus. It could almost be said that one spouse is having sex with sex rather than with the other spouse. This focus on sex rather than on the spouse is a poison to love and marriage.

Pray about this: “A man will reap only what he sows. If he sows in the field of the flesh, he will reap a harvest of corruption; but if his seed-ground is the Spirit, he will reap everlasting life” (Gal. 6: 7-8).

Nihil Obstat: Reverend Robert J. Buschmiller, February 1, 1996
Imprimatur: Most Reverend Carl K. Moeddel, Vicar General and Auxiliary Bishop of the Archdiocese of Cincinnati, February 5, 1996

The Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur are a declaration that a book or pamphlet is considered to be free from doctrinal and moral error. It is not implied that those who have granted the Nihil Obstat or Imprimatur agree with the contents, opinions or statements expressed."

Presentation Ministries

God bless, my dear friends, and thankyou for taking time to read this.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax:tiphat:
What is your conclusion???

Oral sex is wrong, per se, but the oral stimulation is morally okay!!! Only, the abuses are not moral.

How can you have a negative presumption concerning the oral stimulation? It is absurd.
 
Dearly beloved friends,

Cordial greetings and a very good day.

Those presently browsing this thread may find that the following alternative viewpoint has the ring of truth much more than the one enthusiastically espoused by several contributors:

"Oral Sex in Marriage

“Now, Lord, You know that I take this wife of mine not because of lust, but for a noble purpose” - Tobit 8: 7

Many Christian marriages are breaking up, as if their unity in Christ was no more binding than the attachments of a secular marriage. Moreover, many Christian marriages are struggling to survive. One practice that contributes to the weakening of marriages is oral sex as part of foreplay in sexual relations. By oral sex, I am refering to oral-genital contact between spouses. There is no authoritative teaching of the Catholic Church permitting or forbidding oral sex as part of foreplay preceding normal marital sexual relations. Pope Pius XII taught: “The Creator Himself…established that in the [generative] function, spouses should experience pleasure and enjoyment of body and spirit. Therefore, the spouses do nothing evil in seeking this pleasure and enjoyment. They accept what the Creator has intended for them. At the same time, spouses should know how to keep themselves within the limits of just moderation” (quoted in The Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2362). The question is: “Is oral sex as foreplay ‘within the limits of just moderation’?” There are reasons to believe that it is not and is therefore damaging to true marital love.

First, oral sex is not natural. It is contrary to natural law. If oral sex is OK, then are anal sex or nasal sex also OK? There must be some natural parameters to sexual expression. Otherwise, we have little reason not to permit homosexual activity or even sex between humans and animals. Something must be natural, and therefore other things unnatural.

Second, I have been asked to counsel over a hundred married couples about oral sex as foreplay. After some time of discernment, not one has maintained that oral sex was a true expression of love. The motivation behind oral sex is often lust. The spouse is not the focus of the sexual foreplay; rather, sexual stimulation is the focus. It could almost be said that one spouse is having sex with sex rather than with the other spouse. This focus on sex rather than on the spouse is a poison to love and marriage.

Pray about this: “A man will reap only what he sows. If he sows in the field of the flesh, he will reap a harvest of corruption; but if his seed-ground is the Spirit, he will reap everlasting life” (Gal. 6: 7-8).

Nihil Obstat: Reverend Robert J. Buschmiller, February 1, 1996
Imprimatur: Most Reverend Carl K. Moeddel, Vicar General and Auxiliary Bishop of the Archdiocese of Cincinnati, February 5, 1996

The Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur are a declaration that a book or pamphlet is considered to be free from doctrinal and moral error. It is not implied that those who have granted the Nihil Obstat or Imprimatur agree with the contents, opinions or statements expressed."

Presentation Ministries

God bless, my dear friends, and thankyou for taking time to read this.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax:tiphat:
Honestly, what do you think of my public messages and my private messages?
 
I never said that. I never espoused that. Therein lies the answer to all of the confusion. You’ve been attacking me for a position I have never held. I think an apology is in order. :mad:
Fair enough. I apologize and admit I may have misinterpreted you. I was under the impression that you beleive anal stimulation AND anyting extra-vaginal is sodomy (which would include oral stimulation). I was relying on this statement of yours:
Anal has always …been considered sodomy. …Why are you still fighting about this? All non-vaginal sex (this is where oral gets thrown on the fire with anal) has also always been considered “sodomy,” despite debate.
…emphasis mine, but these are your words…clear as can be in my opinion. (Post #207)

Or here:
The insertion of the erect penis into A. an anus and/or B. a mouth has classically been understood as sodomy.

Why are we splitting hairs?
(Post #211)

So, can you please clarify whether or ont you believe oral stimulation is sodomy. And if you do, can you please provide the credible Catholic source that supports your postition, as I have in support of mine?

(Note, the quote that Portrait provided rightly calls out oral sex as always gravely disordered…and when it switches to oral forplay, only personal experience/opinion is given by the author…hence the Nihil Obstat…he does not present his opinion/experience as Church teaching and makes it plain which is which. In other words, this source is useless as a support because it does NOT say that oral foreplay/stimulation is wrong…just that the author disagrees with it.)
I had no idea that this is what you were after me about, because you’ve never bothered in all of the previous posts to tell me what you were refuting.
“I think you are trying more to be right than you are trying to see another point of view” No, I’m quite sure that’s you. This has been the strawman all along.
I believe I have been fairly clear in what I am after. I have been asking you, and others, to give credible and authentic Catholic support for your positions. With all due respect, I think perhaps you are not used to being held accountable for what you say and having people ask you to justify/support your opinions.
 
The motivation behind oral sex is often lust. The spouse is not the focus of the sexual foreplay; rather, sexual stimulation is the focus. It could almost be said that one spouse is having sex with sex rather than with the other spouse. This focus on sex rather than on the spouse is a poison to love and marriage
With all due respect to the priest that wrote this, this is an absolute crock of you-know-what. Trying to deduce the motivation behind certain actions is precisely what we’re not supposed to do when explaining what is and is not objectively evil. When it comes to determining morality of certain actions, motivation only comes into play with things like self-defense and double-effect. Fornication is objectively evil even if the intent is to express love. IVF is objectively evil even if the intent, to bring a child into this world, is good. Theft is objectively wrong even if a thief is stealing bread to feed his family. His culpability may be less, but he’s still committing an objective wrong.

The point being made by all the people who plainly believe that JPII’s TOB is wrong and only quote Pope Pius XII when it’s convenient for them, is that oral stimulation is objectively wrong because it’s contrary to natural low. But the example being used in this case undermines this very case! The assertion is made that oral sex is unnatural and then there’s a comparison to homosexual fornication that makes little sense.

The author tries to tie the two together when they could not be further apart. Homosexual acts are immoral because they can never be ordered towards unity and procreation no matter how they are completed. They’re not immoral because the actions themselves are “unnatural.” The same goes for copulation with animals, and you can include the point that there’s also a complete lack of conscious acquiescence on the part of an animal in such an action. It’s basically akin to rape.

So now that point one is tossed aside for lack of logical congruence, we can move on to point two. The second point is basically this author asserting that he knows the motivations behind every single sexual act. That’s insane and un-Christian. Quite frankly you could be committing serious sexual sin by having straightforward no-touching anything before intercourse sex if the mindset is to simply receive release. And honestly, I think that kind of sex probably opens oneself more to that kind of mindset than anything else because it’s robotic, impractical and out and out weird.

Look, the advice against going too far and indulging one’s lusts is good. To ascribe motivations to certain acts based on them simply being certain acts is ridiculous.

If one spouse likes something but the other spouse is uncomfortable… but then is more or less coerced into performing those acts, then you have a serious problem. But if both parties are on board and the act is completed in a way that’s procreative and unitive, you’re in good shape. One should always remain on guard against making marital relations about himself as opposed to making it about the other and the unity between both. This is very true. Definitively stating that certain actions are always motivated by disordered lust is absolutely and completely wrong.

I should also note that ahs is exactly right about the Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat in this case. There is nothing wrong with someone saying that he is uncomfortable with oral stimulation and would recommend against it because it might be lustful. There is also nothing wrong with someone saying that it’s fine and an expression of love. The Church is silent on the matter as I’ve noted over and over again. That’s probably because for some people these acts can lead to a slippery slope but for others, it’s not a big deal. There’s no objective evil present at all and the author of the piece never tries to assert one. Trying to ascribe motivations in every case, however, is indeed wrong.
 
Dearly beloved friends,

Cordial greetings and a very good day.

Those presently browsing this thread may find that the following alternative viewpoint has the ring of truth much more than the one enthusiastically espoused by several contributors:

"Oral Sex in Marriage

“Now, Lord, You know that I take this wife of mine not because of lust, but for a noble purpose” - Tobit 8: 7

Many Christian marriages are breaking up, as if their unity in Christ was no more binding than the attachments of a secular marriage. Moreover, many Christian marriages are struggling to survive. One practice that contributes to the weakening of marriages is oral sex as part of foreplay in sexual relations. By oral sex, I am refering to oral-genital contact between spouses. There is no authoritative teaching of the Catholic Church permitting or forbidding oral sex as part of foreplay preceding normal marital sexual relations. Pope Pius XII taught: “The Creator Himself…established that in the [generative] function, spouses should experience pleasure and enjoyment of body and spirit. Therefore, the spouses do nothing evil in seeking this pleasure and enjoyment. They accept what the Creator has intended for them. At the same time, spouses should know how to keep themselves within the limits of just moderation” (quoted in The Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2362). The question is: “Is oral sex as foreplay ‘within the limits of just moderation’?” There are reasons to believe that it is not and is therefore damaging to true marital love. ** Per se, there is no presumption of immorality.**???

First, oral sex (a definition) is not natural. It is contrary to natural law. If oral sex is OK, then are anal sex or nasal sex also OK? There must be some natural parameters to sexual expression. Otherwise, we have little reason not to permit homosexual activity or even sex between humans and animals. Something must be natural, and therefore other things unnatural.

Oral sex replacement and substitution

Second, I have been asked to counsel over a hundred married couples about oral sex as foreplay. After some time of discernment, not one has maintained that oral sex was a true expression of love. The motivation behind oral sex is often lust. The spouse is not the focus of the sexual foreplay; rather, sexual stimulation is the focus. It could almost be said that one spouse is having sex with sex rather than with the other spouse. This focus on sex rather than on the spouse is a poison to love and marriage.

Very simplistic reasoning!!!

Pray about this: “A man will reap only what he sows. If he sows in the field of the flesh, he will reap a harvest of corruption; but if his seed-ground is the Spirit, he will reap everlasting life” (Gal. 6: 7-8).

Nihil Obstat: Reverend Robert J. Buschmiller, February 1, 1996
Imprimatur: Most Reverend Carl K. Moeddel, Vicar General and Auxiliary Bishop of the Archdiocese of Cincinnati, February 5, 1996

The Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur are a declaration that a book or pamphlet is considered to be free from doctrinal and moral error. It is not implied that those who have granted the Nihil Obstat or Imprimatur agree with the contents, opinions or statements expressed."

Presentation Ministries

God bless, my dear friends, and thankyou for taking time to read this.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax:tiphat:
 
What is the oral sex?
What is the oral stimulation?
The differences between wife and husband (the theology of sex of male is not the same that the theology of sex of female). The rules are not the same because of alterity and complementarity (equity and equality, both).
 
Dearly beloved friends,

Cordial greetings and a very good day.

Those presently browsing this thread may find that the following alternative viewpoint has the ring of truth much more than the one enthusiastically espoused by several contributors:

"Oral Sex in Marriage

“Now, Lord, You know that I take this wife of mine not because of lust, but for a noble purpose” - Tobit 8: 7

Many Christian marriages are breaking up, as if their unity in Christ was no more binding than the attachments of a secular marriage. Moreover, many Christian marriages are struggling to survive. One practice that contributes to the weakening of marriages is oral sex as part of foreplay in sexual relations. By oral sex, I am refering to oral-genital contact between spouses. There is no authoritative teaching of the Catholic Church permitting or forbidding oral sex as part of foreplay preceding normal marital sexual relations. Pope Pius XII taught: “The Creator Himself…established that in the [generative] function, spouses should experience pleasure and enjoyment of body and spirit. Therefore, the spouses do nothing evil in seeking this pleasure and enjoyment. They accept what the Creator has intended for them. At the same time, spouses should know how to keep themselves within the limits of just moderation” (quoted in The Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2362). The question is: “Is oral sex as foreplay ‘within the limits of just moderation’?” There are reasons to believe that it is not and is therefore damaging to true marital love.

First, oral sex is not natural. It is contrary to natural law. If oral sex is OK, then are anal sex or nasal sex also OK? There must be some natural parameters to sexual expression. Otherwise, we have little reason not to permit homosexual activity or even sex between humans and animals. Something must be natural, and therefore other things unnatural.

Second, I have been asked to counsel over a hundred married couples about oral sex as foreplay. After some time of discernment, not one has maintained that oral sex was a true expression of love. The motivation behind oral sex is often lust. The spouse is not the focus of the sexual foreplay; rather, sexual stimulation is the focus. It could almost be said that one spouse is having sex with sex rather than with the other spouse. This focus on sex rather than on the spouse is a poison to love and marriage.

Pray about this: “A man will reap only what he sows. If he sows in the field of the flesh, he will reap a harvest of corruption; but if his seed-ground is the Spirit, he will reap everlasting life” (Gal. 6: 7-8).

Nihil Obstat: Reverend Robert J. Buschmiller, February 1, 1996
Imprimatur: Most Reverend Carl K. Moeddel, Vicar General and Auxiliary Bishop of the Archdiocese of Cincinnati, February 5, 1996

The Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur are a declaration that a book or pamphlet is considered to be free from doctrinal and moral error. It is not implied that those who have granted the Nihil Obstat or Imprimatur agree with the contents, opinions or statements expressed."

Presentation Ministries

God bless, my dear friends, and thankyou for taking time to read this.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax:tiphat:
It is a pessimistic theology. It is a pessimistic view. This act of love is, per se, almost wrong. As catholic, I cannot be okay with it. It is not in link with the official moral and the official theology. I do not have to be okay with. That is so presumptious.

In the USA the puritanism is so strong. It is very sad.
 
With all due respect to the priest that wrote this, this is an absolute crock of you-know-what. Trying to deduce the motivation behind certain actions is precisely what we’re not supposed to do when explaining what is and is not objectively evil. When it comes to determining morality of certain actions, motivation only comes into play with things like self-defense and double-effect. Fornication is objectively evil even if the intent is to express love. IVF is objectively evil even if the intent, to bring a child into this world, is good. Theft is objectively wrong even if a thief is stealing bread to feed his family. His culpability may be less, but he’s still committing an objective wrong.

The point being made by all the people who plainly believe that JPII’s TOB is wrong and only quote Pope Pius XII when it’s convenient for them, is that oral stimulation is objectively wrong because it’s contrary to natural low. But the example being used in this case undermines this very case!** The assertion is made that oral sex is unnatural and then there’s a comparison to homosexual fornication that makes little sense. **

The author tries to tie the two together when they could not be further apart. Homosexual acts are immoral because they can never be ordered towards unity and procreation no matter how they are completed. They’re not immoral because the actions themselves are “unnatural.” The same goes for copulation with animals, and you can include the point that there’s also a complete lack of conscious acquiescence on the part of an animal in such an action. It’s basically akin to rape.

So now that point one is tossed aside for lack of logical congruence, we can move on to point two. The second point is basically this author asserting that he knows the motivations behind every single sexual act. That’s insane and un-Christian. Quite frankly you could be committing serious sexual sin by having straightforward no-touching anything before intercourse sex if the mindset is to simply receive release. And honestly, I think that kind of sex probably opens oneself more to that kind of mindset than anything else because it’s robotic, impractical and out and out weird.

Look, the advice against going too far and indulging one’s lusts is good. To ascribe motivations to certain acts based on them simply being certain acts is ridiculous.

If one spouse likes something but the other spouse is uncomfortable… but then is more or less coerced into performing those acts, then you have a serious problem. But if both parties are on board and the act is completed in a way that’s procreative and unitive, you’re in good shape. One should always remain on guard against making marital relations about himself as opposed to making it about the other and the unity between both. This is very true. Definitively stating that certain actions are always motivated by disordered lust is absolutely and completely wrong.

I should also note that ahs is exactly right about the Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat in this case. There is nothing wrong with someone saying that he is uncomfortable with oral stimulation and would recommend against it because it might be lustful. There is also nothing wrong with someone saying that it’s fine and an expression of love. The Church is silent on the matter as I’ve noted over and over again. That’s probably because for some people these acts can lead to a slippery slope but for others, it’s not a big deal. There’s no objective evil present at all and the author of the piece never tries to assert one. Trying to ascribe motivations in every case, however, is indeed wrong.
**
Well said, it is very smart.**
 
I should also note that the Church is likewise silent on wives dressing in lingerie, husbands doing something similar (my mind is really blank on this one as I am a guy, but women might be able to help out), spouses sending sexy texts or leaving voice messages of a sexual nature to one another, or even spouses sending private pictures of themselves to one another provided that there is no masturbation involved.

Again, the most likely reason the Church is silent on the matter is because no objective evil is involved. Say, however, that one spouse has had struggles with pornography and/or masturbation in the past. It’s probably a bad idea for that married couple to then send pictures to one another because it could lead to the near occasion of sin. For individuals who have not struggled with that sin, I can’t really even make a discernment as to whether it’s a good or bad idea.

Anything and everything when it comes to sexuality can be very good or very bad depending on its use. Some individuals might think sending pictures of themselves to one another is objectification. Others might have no quarrel. Some might be uncomfortable with texts or messages for fear others might read them. Others might be fine with it. I’m not advocating for “whatever floats your boat” or “whatever feels good” or “as long as both parties consent!” I’m saying that where the Church is silent, we should exercise our best judgment and that such judgment may result in some couples doing certain things that others would not do. So long as there is no objective evil committed, we should do the responsible thing, the Christian thing, and not make a judgment on our part simply because perhaps we would not do the same.
 
If you’re going to appeal to authority, appeal to an authority that isn’t, quite literally, crazy.

Here are some other things Ron Conte has written:

amazon.com/Notes-Apocalypse-2012-Revised-ebook/dp/B009GKU78A/

web.archive.org/web/20110610095859/http://catholicplanet.com/future/index.htm

web.archive.org/web/20110610102304/http://catholicplanet.com/women/dress.htm

I mean, the dude thinks that dressing immodestly is not as bad as a woman wearing pants. No, really!
The offense of a woman wearing pants is an offense against the very order which God built into Creation and humanity. **The offense of a woman wearing men’s clothing is called an abomination by Sacred Scripture. **
By comparison, when a woman wears a short skirt, or a tight dress, her offense is only a matter of degree. Such an offense is not intrinsically disordered – it does not contradict or rebel against the fundamental order which God gave to Creation and humanity
This of course, is utter nonsense, ignores the history of societal norms when it comes to outwear, ignores cultures where men where things like dresses, ignores cultures where women wear sarongs and the like, I could go on and on.

And it completely ignores what the Church says about modesty. So it’s not only foolish and illogical, it’s contrary to the doctrine.

So remember folks, when Mickey and Ron Conte tell you that oral stimulation during marital sex is intrinsically disordered, they also believe that women wearing pants is intrinsically disordered.

I’ve got news for you folks. Masturbation is intrinsically disordered and objectively evil. Homosexuality is intrinsically disordered (though not evil if not acted upon). My wife wearing some sweats when going to the gym is not.
 
The comments, beliefs, and egos of some of the men on here are beyond hilarious! You guys that are of the “Ron Conte” camp have taken absurdity to a new level. You obviously think that you are either so good-looking, well-built, well-endowed, and completely irresistible that your all your wife has to do is look at you, swoon with passion, and is ready to become your outlet for sexual release and she’s so overcome with your manliness and virility that she can barely contain an orgasm until sex happens in the missionary position, all the while, the only touching that can occur is between penis and vagina and the necessary, but never to be conscientiously enjoyed, connection of skin on skin (that’s just a necessary evil, sorry to say).
 
Using Ron Conte as your source is almost like using Christopher West…but at a less serious level. Mr. West surpases Conte in education, Church approval, and credentials. The fact that Mr. West’s material bears the Imprimitur, while Conte’s does not, is sufficient in itself for me to know which of them to take seriously.

Ron Conte is no more reliable a source than any member of CAF…many of whom hold the same education degree, or higher.

Now then, were you ever planning on offering an authentic Catholic (approved by the Church) source to back up your assertion? Or will you continue to rely on self-professed theologians who are not in line with Church teaching and have no approval by the Church?
 
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