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F
fpt
Guest
The Song of Songs of Solomon. In reading, you can find out the foreplay that are morally okay:
May he kiss me with the kiss of his mouth.
His left hand is under my head, and his right hand shall embrace me.
Your** cheeks** are beautiful, like those of a turtledove. Your neck is like a bejeweled collar.
So much better than wine are your breasts, fragranced with the finest perfumes.
We will exult and rejoice in you, remembering your breasts above wine.
My beloved is a bundle of myrrh to me. He shall abide between my breasts.
Your two breasts are like two young does, twins that pasture among the lilies.How beautiful are your breasts, my sister, my spouse!
Your breasts are more beautiful than wine, and the fragrance of your ointments is above all aromatic oils.
Your two breasts are like two young twin does.
While the king was taking his rest, my aromatic ointment sent forth its odor.
My beloved is a cluster of Cyprus grapes to me, in the vineyards of Engaddi.
I am a flower of the open field and a lily of the steep valleys.
Like an apple tree among the trees of the forest, so is my beloved among the sons. I sat beneath the shadow of the one whom I desired, and his fruit was sweet to my palate.
He brought me into the storeroom of wine. He set charity in order within me.
Prop me up with flowers. Close me in with apples. For I languish through love.
His left hand is under my head, and his right hand shall embrace me.
The voice of my beloved! Behold, he arrives leaping along the mountains, jumping across the hills.
My beloved is like a doe and like a young stag.
Lo, my beloved speaks to me: Rise up, quickly, my love, my dove, my shapely one, and advance.
His hands are smoothed gold, full of hyacinths. His abdomen is ivory, accented with sapphires.
My beloved is for me, and I am for him. He pastures among the lilies, until the day rises and the shadows decline.
**Your lips **are like a scarlet ribbon, and your eloquence is sweetness. Like a piece of pomegranate, so are your cheeks, except for what is hidden within.
Your neck is like the tower of David, which was built with ramparts: a thousand shields are hanging from it, all the armor of the strong.
Your lips, my spouse, are a dripping honeycomb; honey and milk are under your tongue. And the fragrance of your garments is like the odor of frankincense.
An enclosed garden is my sister, my spouse: an enclosed garden, a sealed fountain.
May my beloved enter into his garden, and eat the fruit of his apple trees.
I have taken off my tunic; how shall I be clothed in it? I have washed my feet; how shall I spoil them?
My beloved put his hand through the window, and my inner self was moved by his touch.
I rose up in order to open to my beloved. My hands dripped with myrrh, and my fingers were full of the finest myrrh.
I am for my beloved, and my beloved is for me. He pastures among the lilies.
How beautiful are your footsteps in shoes, O daughter of a ruler! The joints of your thighs are like jewels, which have been fabricated by the hand of an artist.
Your navel is a round bowl, never lacking in curvature. Your abdomen is like a bundle of wheat, surrounded with lilies.
I said, I will ascend to the palm tree, and take hold of its fruit. And your breasts will be like clusters of **grapes on the vine. **And the fragrance of your mouth will be like apples.
May he kiss me with the kiss of his mouth.
His left hand is under my head, and his right hand shall embrace me.
Your** cheeks** are beautiful, like those of a turtledove. Your neck is like a bejeweled collar.
So much better than wine are your breasts, fragranced with the finest perfumes.
We will exult and rejoice in you, remembering your breasts above wine.
My beloved is a bundle of myrrh to me. He shall abide between my breasts.
Your two breasts are like two young does, twins that pasture among the lilies.How beautiful are your breasts, my sister, my spouse!
Your breasts are more beautiful than wine, and the fragrance of your ointments is above all aromatic oils.
Your two breasts are like two young twin does.
While the king was taking his rest, my aromatic ointment sent forth its odor.
My beloved is a cluster of Cyprus grapes to me, in the vineyards of Engaddi.
I am a flower of the open field and a lily of the steep valleys.
Like an apple tree among the trees of the forest, so is my beloved among the sons. I sat beneath the shadow of the one whom I desired, and his fruit was sweet to my palate.
He brought me into the storeroom of wine. He set charity in order within me.
Prop me up with flowers. Close me in with apples. For I languish through love.
His left hand is under my head, and his right hand shall embrace me.
The voice of my beloved! Behold, he arrives leaping along the mountains, jumping across the hills.
My beloved is like a doe and like a young stag.
Lo, my beloved speaks to me: Rise up, quickly, my love, my dove, my shapely one, and advance.
His hands are smoothed gold, full of hyacinths. His abdomen is ivory, accented with sapphires.
My beloved is for me, and I am for him. He pastures among the lilies, until the day rises and the shadows decline.
**Your lips **are like a scarlet ribbon, and your eloquence is sweetness. Like a piece of pomegranate, so are your cheeks, except for what is hidden within.
Your neck is like the tower of David, which was built with ramparts: a thousand shields are hanging from it, all the armor of the strong.
Your lips, my spouse, are a dripping honeycomb; honey and milk are under your tongue. And the fragrance of your garments is like the odor of frankincense.
An enclosed garden is my sister, my spouse: an enclosed garden, a sealed fountain.
May my beloved enter into his garden, and eat the fruit of his apple trees.
I have taken off my tunic; how shall I be clothed in it? I have washed my feet; how shall I spoil them?
My beloved put his hand through the window, and my inner self was moved by his touch.
I rose up in order to open to my beloved. My hands dripped with myrrh, and my fingers were full of the finest myrrh.
I am for my beloved, and my beloved is for me. He pastures among the lilies.
How beautiful are your footsteps in shoes, O daughter of a ruler! The joints of your thighs are like jewels, which have been fabricated by the hand of an artist.
Your navel is a round bowl, never lacking in curvature. Your abdomen is like a bundle of wheat, surrounded with lilies.
I said, I will ascend to the palm tree, and take hold of its fruit. And your breasts will be like clusters of **grapes on the vine. **And the fragrance of your mouth will be like apples.
M
Mickey
Guest
You are very wrong. Ask your confessor.
It is best to ask anyway. I sure am glad that I did.
Yes it is.
This issue is a matter of a properly formed conscience and simple common sense.
M
Mickey
Guest
You will be guided by your conscience.
But the Church does agree with my conclusion…sodomy is a sin. Ask your confessor.
Every source you see will agree on the same definition of sodomy. The Catholic Church does not have a different definition.
P
Portrait
Guest
Dear Mickey,No. If you engage in the act of sodomy…it makes no difference if you finish with an act of natural marital relations. You have still committed the intrinsically disordered act. Ask your confessor about this.
The Church has never justified sodomy within the marital embrace!
Cordial greetings and a very good day. Hope all is well. Thankyou for all of your sanctified common sense posts on this current thread. It is always refreshing to read your incisive (name removed by moderator)ut -keep up the good work, old chap.
Any sexual activity that occurs prior to carnal copulation will necessarily be intrinsically disordered and that certainly includes manual and oral stimulation of the genitalia, for these are incontrovertably deviant and unclean acts. This remains the case, dear friend, even if these deviant acts (deviant because the reproductive organs are being used contrary to the purpose for which they were intended) form a part of ‘loving stimulation’ preceding normal coitus. Irrespective of the marital context they are still aberrant and immoral sexual acts that cannot be indulged in by those who profess godliness.
As Christians, dear friend, we must needs be sharply distinguished from the moral corruption with which we are daily surrounded and that entails not indulging in the degrading practices of the heathen, who is at the whim of unbridled sexual desire, including deviant acts of gross indecency. What our debased world euphemistically terms ‘beatiful expressions of romantic love’ are in reality depraved and unnatural acts of sexual gratification. St. Paul exhorts the Ephesians: “But immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is fitting among saints” (5: 3, added emphasis mine). A properly formed conscience should inform us that we have an obligation to cherish a higher standard of moral conduct than the ungodly. Moreover, St. Paul’s words here, “as is fitting among saints”, brings out the peculiar unfittness of even the slightest approach to impurity on the part of those who profess to be related to the God of holiness - “For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from immorality; that each one of you know how to control his own body in holiness and honour, not in the passion of lust like heathens who do not know God…For God has not called us for uncleaness, but holiness” (I Thess. 4: 3-5, 7, added emphasis mine).
We are, as the people of God, supposed to be progessively being renewed and transformed into Christ’s likeness (cf. I Cor. 3: 18) and this will necessarily involve a separation from all impure and morally polluting acts, such as manual and moral stimulation of the genitalia. It is, dear friend, not only deeply saddening that many cannot grasp this, but it is also sure evidence of the extent to which the gravely immoral vices of non-Christians have been embraced by many contemporary Catholics. One can understand, although not condone, the lusts to which the heathen in their ignorance of God do descend, but surely there can be no greater inconsistency than for those who know God to follow the very same shameful course of conduct.
God bless.
Warmest good wishes,
Portrait
Pax
M
Mickey
Guest
Really? A woman cannot get aroused by kissing? This is news to me.
M
Mickey
Guest
Mr West has been subject to much criticism for some of his questionable interpretations. But I am fairly certain that you will not see such an interpretation from Pope John Paul II or Pope Benedict.
M
Mickey
Guest
No. The onus is on you to show that anal and oral stimulation is not considered to be sodomy.
Exactly!
There is only one definition of sodomy.
Never heard of him or his 1920 definition. Interesting that most priests I have met seem to believe that anal and oral stimulation is sodomy.
That is ludicrous. I pray that the seminaries are not continuing to use this.
M
Mickey
Guest
How very true!
V
ValPal
Guest
Christopher West’s interpretations are based upon “Love and Responsibility,” written by Pope John Paul II, before he was Pope.
There is one thing we can be sure of: Any type of common genital stimulation for a woman is never going to be prohibited. The reason is that it can increase a woman’s chance of becoming pregnant, which in nature is the reason why sex exists in the first place. A prohibition against these acts is a prohibition against the unitive and procreation nature of sex.
T
The_Bucket
Guest
Have you like… ever engaged in sexual intercourse? I mean, ever? Do you, or Ron or Portrait really have any concept about biology? It’s quite clear you don’t have any clue as to what the doctrine of the Church teaches about marital relations, that’s been well-established. But do you understand basic biology in terms of how the reproductive system works?
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ValPal
Guest
The onus is on you, since the Church hasn’t taken your position.
No there is not. I’ll repeat: you have to understand how the Church defines these terms in order to properly interpret these issues.
I’ll even give a common example: procreative. In common language, procreative means something along the lines of beget offspring. Yet sterile people can have procreative sex, as defined by the Church, hence the Church has a specific definition not used by others.
Priests do not decide doctrine/dogma; that is for bishops. If you want an official answer, you’ll have to start there.Interesting that most priests I have met seem to believe that anal and oral stimulation is sodomy. That is ludicrous. I pray that the seminaries are not continuing to use this.
Also, how you ask the question is important. If you ask:
“Is sodomy allowed?” the answer is obvious no.
If you state: “I understand that oral stimulation increases the chances of a woman getting pregnant. Is this permitted as part of the unitive and procreative act, with a man finishing in the normal way?” you will get a different answer.
V
ValPal
Guest
BTW, can you cite any examples in the Bible where sodomy is used in the context of a husband and wife finishing in the normal way?
V
ValPal
Guest
Once again, your mixing up terms. Sodomy is a sex act unto itself, not a stimulatory act in the context of foreplay. As a result, your statement above is nonsensical.
F
fpt
Guest
You need to define:
The masturbation in the catholic meaning? and the constitutive elements?
The sodomy in the catholic meaning? and the constitutive elements?
The marital act in the catholic meaning? and the constitutive elements?
The mutual and reciprocal donation of bodies for making one flesh in the human fashion with sexual cooperation, in the catholic meaning? ?
The human fashion of making love in the catholic meaning ?
The sexual cooperation in the human fashion for making love in the catholic meaning?
Are you capable???
The marital act in the human fashion with sexual cooperation means three steps before during and after the union of bodies? At each step, the own rules. The holy erotism is an part of marital act. Do you refuse the language of bodies during the marital act? The moral right on the body of the other during sex??? What is it? Do you want an incomplete donation of bodies?
The masturbation in the catholic meaning? and the constitutive elements?
The sodomy in the catholic meaning? and the constitutive elements?
The marital act in the catholic meaning? and the constitutive elements?
The mutual and reciprocal donation of bodies for making one flesh in the human fashion with sexual cooperation, in the catholic meaning? ?
The human fashion of making love in the catholic meaning ?
The sexual cooperation in the human fashion for making love in the catholic meaning?
Are you capable???
The marital act in the human fashion with sexual cooperation means three steps before during and after the union of bodies? At each step, the own rules. The holy erotism is an part of marital act. Do you refuse the language of bodies during the marital act? The moral right on the body of the other during sex??? What is it? Do you want an incomplete donation of bodies?
P
Portrait
Guest
Dear A TeutonicKnight,
Cordial greetings and a very good day.
We should bring to the notice of those browsing this thread, dear friend, that the instructions of H.H. PJPII in Theology of the Body, clearly do not condone the deviant practices currently under review.
As regards Mr. West, men should be aware that he is not held in universal esteem and, in any case, citing him is simply and appeal to authority. There is no official magisterial teaching that authoritatively declares that manual or oral stimulation of the private parts within the context of marriage is morally permissible. In the absence of such authoritative teaching, the faithful must use their prudential judgement to aid them in their decision making. Now this is all well and good, dear friend, provided that they do not have a radically defective conscience, as a consequence of being imbued with the debased standards of the world. In that case, their prudential judgment will be anything but prudential but will, in all probability, be very wide of the mark. This is not only applicable to our present topic but will apply to any number of issues on which Holy Mother Church has not specifically declared her mind (e.g. the use of profanity, listening to debased sensory material, such as rock/pop music, and even the requirements of modest attire for women).
However, as regards fellatio/cunnilingus these are manifestly not procreative and are therefore aberrant and unclean acts of depravity and should accordingly be avoided by the faithful. That they occur within the marriage bed, dear friend, is wholly irrelevant since that does not render them any less deviant or intrinsically disordered. An unnatural and deviant action cannot be rationalized upon the basis that is a prelude to natural licit coitus. That is not consistent with the thinking that one normally associated with an authentic Catholic mind.
Those who demand explicit Church teaching condemning such vile practices are approaching this whole issue from very legalistic standpoint and need to read and mark what St. Paul, for example, says about impurity and uncleaness as regards sexual morality. This I have referenced in a previous post today. Purity necessarily involves the control and direction of sexual powers and impulses in accordance with the natural law and purpose of God. It is, dear friend, manifiestly incongruous for those who profess Christ’s holy religion to condone or indulge in filthy and deviant sexual practices. Moreover, that they occur within the context of the marriage bed, is wholly immaterial.
God bless.
Warmest good wishes,
Portrait
Pax
F
fpt
Guest
For helping, you have to discuss, not in the same time, of two topics:
Masturbation?
Sodomy?
Two different things.
Masturbation?
Sodomy?
Two different things.
A
ahs
Guest
From Portrait:
Second, please explain how stimulating a sexual organ is using it contrary to its purpose. Were these organs not made to be stimulated in order that they can then perform the reproductive act. One cannot very well engage in a sex act without the organs first being stimulated, can one?
Third, please cite an official Church teaching that backs up your position. The Church is very clear and precise on its teachings about sexuality and when sex is disordered. Please cite the part that supports you assertion that foreplay is illicit…a position I believe to be heretical if you mean to say that, therefore, no couple can engage in sex without sinning. Or how is it that you believe any couple can engage in sex without touching each other in the manner which you find sinful?
Your assertions have zero support from any official Catholic source. The old saying goes (in English) “…easily asserted, easily rejected…” I have provided you with an official Catholic position (see prior post). It is your turn to do likewise.
From Mickey:
Mickey, I provided a link to that very book, as a hyperlink with the text “a Catholic source” in my prior post. And the fact that you disagree with it does not make it false. On the contrary, I argue that it proves your position is false…unless you can in turn provide an official Church teaching that supports what you say. So far, you have only provided your opinion. Martin Luther had opinions too…didn’t make him right. Back up your assertions with a credible Catholic source please.
From ValPal:
Portrait, first please explain to us what is unnatural or detestable about oral stimulation of the genitalia that is not unnatural or detestable about me kissing my wife’s hand.
Second, please explain how stimulating a sexual organ is using it contrary to its purpose. Were these organs not made to be stimulated in order that they can then perform the reproductive act. One cannot very well engage in a sex act without the organs first being stimulated, can one?
Third, please cite an official Church teaching that backs up your position. The Church is very clear and precise on its teachings about sexuality and when sex is disordered. Please cite the part that supports you assertion that foreplay is illicit…a position I believe to be heretical if you mean to say that, therefore, no couple can engage in sex without sinning. Or how is it that you believe any couple can engage in sex without touching each other in the manner which you find sinful?
Your assertions have zero support from any official Catholic source. The old saying goes (in English) “…easily asserted, easily rejected…” I have provided you with an official Catholic position (see prior post). It is your turn to do likewise.
From Mickey:
And? Mr. West’s books have been approved by the Church, evidenced by the Imprimitur and Nihil Obstat stamped on his books. Such is done by a Bishop…and it’s not jsut his local Bishop, as there are other morla theologians wiht the same ideas in different areas that all bear these stamps of approval…for some time now…and ZERO correction from up the ladder on their “wrong-in-your-opinion-only” views. He is also backed up by a renowned moral theologian who wrote THE moral theology book for seminaries for the Catholic Church. By contrast, I have yet to see a book that states your position which has been granted any official approval by the Church.
Mickey, I provided a link to that very book, as a hyperlink with the text “a Catholic source” in my prior post. And the fact that you disagree with it does not make it false. On the contrary, I argue that it proves your position is false…unless you can in turn provide an official Church teaching that supports what you say. So far, you have only provided your opinion. Martin Luther had opinions too…didn’t make him right. Back up your assertions with a credible Catholic source please.
From ValPal:
F
fpt
Guest
Do you know that we are not angels? Do you want to be an angel? You are sexed. The marriage is a sexed and sexual contract? Are you okay? and also a sexed and sexual institution. Are you okay?
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