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Mickey
Guest
I mentioned that you would ask your confessor…not to try to find a new one to disagree with something.
But then…you will do as your conscience dictates.
Good day. :tiphat:
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But then…you will do as your conscience dictates.
Good day. :tiphat:
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The_Bucket
Guest
Right. The issue they were taking with West was not that he was speaking in error, but that perhaps people who were reading it would take it as license to indulge their lusts with their spouse. Sexuality is an extremely powerful gift and so it is very easy to misuse it in venial or even grave ways. The concern being expressed was that West was being too “self-assured” and I imagine glib or flip, instead of using language to express the gravity of the gift of sexuality and how fine the line between good and holy expressions of love and feeding one’s lusts.
And to the point you are making, if there is disagreement by theologians then clearly there’s a gray area or at least an area of confusion in some regard. The best course of action is to have a well-defined conscience and to approach sexual congress with an attitude of love and selflessness as opposed to an attitude of lust and selfishness. The desire to debate semantics then pretty much dissipates.
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Mickey
Guest
His name is Fr Heribert Jone…and I see his teaching on this issue as false and scandalous. Many other theologians disagree with him.
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thewanderer
Guest
Could you please provide any who say so, particularly ones who were as widely received and respected as Jone was?
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Mickey
Guest
There are priests that counsel people to use contraceptives? I have never heard such a thing.
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thewanderer
Guest
Yes, there most certainly are.
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ahs
Guest
The Church does not share your view of his theology…hence the fact that his volume was placed in the seminaries for Priests to learn by since the 1920’s. You are certainly free to disagree with him. But you are not free to brand people with guilt with your un-Catholic definition of sodomy…or perhaps you do have an official Catholic definition of sodomy that contrasts with the official Catholic definition that Jone gives us?
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Mickey
Guest
If I have some time…I will scan my sources…and perhaps include the view of some of the Church Fathers regarding the marital embrace…they were quite strict. It is humorous that many people in their zeal to defend sodomy within marriage will latch onto Fr Jone…but discount the Holy Fathers.
By the way, Fr Jone actually contradicts himself on the issue. Section 757 is contradicted by section 230.
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ahs
Guest
There have been MANY threads and posts on this very forum, and in the moral theology forum where people have stated exactly that. A quick search should give you an idea of how prevelant this is. And so, since thisadvice is given in the confessional, are those lay persons allowed to then contracept? Why or why not?
Then, when explaining why not…please apply that same answer to the topic at hand. (Your answer will be, of course, that the Churhc teaches explicitly that contraception is a moral evil…yet you will not be able to say the same for foreplay…and you will then, again, claim “sodomy” and pretend that your personal definition of “sodomy” is the official Catholic definition…which it is not.)
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Mickey
Guest
I do not know this for a fact…perhaps you do. I am aware of certain extreme situations where things like birth control pills might be affirmed because of a medical condition. But I am not here to judge the priestly counsel in Holy Confession.
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ValPal
Guest
Actually it’s more evidence that your definition of sodomy is not the Church’s. Once you understand that, you’ll start understanding basic theology better. A lot of Catholics get hung up on the matter of definitions.There are not two different definitions of sodomy…and Fr Jone contradicts himself.
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ahs
Guest
Citation please? Or do we just take your word for it? And please do maintain the proper context of the citations.There are not two different definitions of sodomy…and Fr Jone contradicts himself.
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Mickey
Guest
On the contrary. It is one and the same. There are not two diffferent definitions of this sinful act.
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ahs
Guest
Uncover your eyes and unplug your ears. With over 14,000 posts, I find it hard to believe you have not run across this here even on CAF. I’ve only been here a year and have encountered several people saying that their confessor told them they could use condoms and other contraceptives to avoid pregnancy if they had a just reason.
There have been MANY threads and posts on this very forum, and in the moral theology forum where people have stated exactly that. A quick search should give you an idea of how prevelant this is. And so, since thisadvice is given in the confessional, are those lay persons allowed to then contracept? Why or why not?
And then apply that same logic to the topic at hand. It was YOU who brought up the topic of confessors speaking as Christ and so we should adhere to what they say.
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ValPal
Guest
I don’t know if counsel is the correct word. I do know that priests have allowed couples to use contraceptives. The source of that information is immediate family members. It is not my intent to stir up controversy or denigrate priests with that information, especially since the priests were dealing with people in difficult situations (older couples with repeated miscarriages, etc.).
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ahs
Guest
I must have missed it. Please provide it again. I provided the exact quote when I referenced him. I did not see the same from you…only a number which you claim contradicts another.
The Church does not share your view of his theology…hence the fact that his volume was placed in the seminaries for Priests to learn by since the 1920’s. You are certainly free to disagree with him. But you are not free to brand people with guilt with your un-Catholic definition of sodomy…or perhaps you do have an official Catholic definition of sodomy that contrasts with the official Catholic definition that Jone gives us?
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ValPal
Guest
Give it a rest. Just look up, say Webster’s definition, which is the commonly held definition. It doesn’t include genital stimulation,oral sex, etc. So if your argument is that there is only one definition, all your arguments in the context of stimulation just went right out the window.
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