Martin Luther added the word "alone"?

[ralphinal]

Oh, he certainly did, and we still practice it today. (Not as much as we should!). The message contained in Absolution is the gospel undistilled. It is pure grace. Luther eventually moved away from it being a sacrament, but not because he disagreed with it but because it lacked a visible element.

It is, however, the means that God uses to justify His people.

Ok.

Interesting use of justify. I would have thought it sanctifies the people as we were justified by the Crucifixion.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Ok.

Interesting use of justify. I would have thought it sanctifies the people as we were justified by the Crucifixion.

Have I told you lately that you are one of the most discerning people I’ve talked with on here?

You’re absolutely right. We use the term justification in two ways.

Objective and Subjective.

Objective justification is the cross. God declared the whole world just in His sight due to the work of Christ. It’s an established fact whether you believe it or not.

Subjective justification is when the work of Christ is applied to an individual through faith, by the means of grace.

 

[ralphinal]

Have I told you lately that you are one of the most discerning people I’ve talked with on here?

You’re absolutely right. We use the term justification in two ways.

Objective and Subjective.

Objective justification is the cross. God declared the whole world just in His sight due to the work of Christ. It’s an established fact whether you believe it or not.

Subjective justification is when the work of Christ is applied to an individual through faith, by the means of grace.

Thanks. Sometimes, I amaze myself.

How would you see sanctification?

 

[MDK]

Holy Absolution is a means of grace. Luther rejected the Roman Catholic use of it, but not the biblical use of it. That is to say, that Holy Absolution was instituted by Christ (John 20), and delivers forgiveness of sins for those who have faith in the message of the gospel.

To be accurate, one can only say that this is Luther’s interpretation of words that are included in the collection of written Tradition written by Holy Spirit inspired Catholics and assembled by the Catholic Church into the book called the Bible. To say it’s Biblical is misleading, since Luther abandoned the meaning including that which had been handed down through apostolic succession. It’s hard to determine what you’re implying here by “forgiveness of sins for those who have faith in the message of the gospel.” Can you please explain? Faith in the Scriptures is wonderful, but does not automatically give us forgiveness of sin. What is actually said in the Scriptures (DRB) is:

John 21-23: 21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

This was given to the apostles, and handed down through laying on of hands in the Church built by Jesus, the same true Church abandoned by Luther.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Thanks. Sometimes, I amaze myself.

How would you see sanctification?

Growth in personal holiness and obedience to the law of Christ. It is different with every believer so should never be used to measure how “saved” a person is or as evidence of one’s salvation. By faith, we are perfectly holy in God’s sight via justification. But God has a temporal purpose to our sanctification which is to love and serve our neighbor and deliver the good news of forgiveness to them. We will be perfectly holy in our persons when we are in heaven/the resurrection.

 

[ralphinal]

Growth in personal holiness and obedience to the law of Christ. It is different with every believer so should never be used to measure how “saved” a person is or as evidence of one’s salvation. By faith, we are perfectly holy in God’s sight via justification. But God has a temporal purpose to our sanctification which is to love and serve our neighbor and deliver the good news of forgiveness to them. We will be perfectly holy in our persons when we are in heaven/the resurrection.

So would sanctification be an action? IS it something that we actively do?

 

[TriuneUnity]

So would sanctification be an action? IS it something that we actively do?

Yes. Sanctification is synergistic (God and man working together) versus justification being monergistic (God acting alone). Man can actively reject or participate in sanctifying grace. If one doesn’t participate in the Spirit’s work of sanctification, it can/and will result in faith being resisted and lost. Hence, subjective justification would be lost as well.

 

[Peter_J]

TriuneUnity, regarding the passage from Augustine in reply #67 … well I’ll have to think about it a bit.

For what it’s worth, I think I’m coming to a greater appreciation of why Lutherans are generally considered one of our three main dialogue partners – the other two being the Orthodox and the Anglicans. (Although, nowadays, perhaps we should say two main dialogue partners.)

 

[ralphinal]

Yes. Sanctification is synergistic (God and man working together) versus justification being monergistic (God acting alone). Man can actively reject or participate in sanctifying grace. If one doesn’t participate in the Spirit’s work of sanctification, it can/and will result in faith being resisted and lost. Hence, subjective justification would be lost as well.

So, can it be said that in his suffering, death, and resurection, Jesus changed the way God sees humans (justified).

Once we are justified, we can respond to Grace given to us by God in an active way to become holy (sanctified).

Now, where is saved?

 

[Peter_J]

Holy Absolution is a means of grace. Luther rejected the Roman Catholic use of it, but not the biblical use of it. That is to say, that Holy Absolution was instituted by Christ (John 20), and delivers forgiveness of sins for those who have faith in the message of the gospel.

What precisely did he reject?

 

[TriuneUnity]

So, can it be said that in his suffering, death, and resurection, Jesus changed the way God sees humans (justified).

Once we are justified, we can respond to Grace given to us by God in an active way to become holy (sanctified).

Now, where is saved?

Yep. You are 100% right in your estimation.

Saved is a present and future reality. Having been justified by Christ, it is a present reality that we can be assured that we will be in his presence at our death.

However, the future sense should be the ultimate use of the term “saved.” We will be fully and finally saved at the Second Advent of Christ, when we are raised to new life in glorified bodies to enjoy the New Earth.

 

[TriuneUnity]

TriuneUnity, regarding the passage from Augustine in reply #67 … well I’ll have to think about it a bit.

For what it’s worth, I think I’m coming to a greater appreciation of why Lutherans are generally considered one of our three main dialogue partners – the other two being the Orthodox and the Anglicans. (Although, nowadays, perhaps we should say two main dialogue partners.)

I would agree. We share an understanding of much more than many other traditions like the Reformed or Holiness movements. We are all sacramental churches that attempt to reach a catholic understanding of doctrine, tradition, etc.

 

[TriuneUnity]

What precisely did he reject?

That private confession and absolution was mandatory. That sins had to be illumined one by one to be forgiven, versus a general confession of guilt with particular attention to serious sins and what may be troubling their conscience. Also the idea of penance for the removal of temporal punishment/purgatory.

 

[ralphinal]

Yep. You are 100% right in your estimation.

Saved is a present and future reality. Having been justified by Christ, it is a present reality that we can be assured that we will be in his presence at our death.

However, the future sense should be the ultimate use of the term “saved.” We will be fully and finally saved at the Second Advent of Christ, when we are raised to new life in glorified bodies to enjoy the New Earth.

So, when Jesus died on the Cross, God sees us in a new way (justified).

When we actively act on the Grace given to us by God, we become holy (sanctified).

The fact that we are justified is the first step to salvation. The second step is being sanctified, and the final step is dying in a state of grace. This is how Paul used “was saved” “working out my salvation” and “will be saved.”

Now, which of these ideas is against Lutheran thought?

 

[TriuneUnity]

So, when Jesus died on the Cross, God sees us in a new way (justified).

When we actively act on the Grace given to us by God, we become holy (sanctified).

The fact that we are justified is the first step to salvation. The second step is being sanctified, and the final step is dying in a state of grace. This is how Paul used “was saved” “working out my salvation” and “will be saved.”

Now, which of these ideas is against Lutheran thought?

In general terms, none of them. In particular to Roman Catholic theology, we disagree with the fact that Rome sees justification as an incomplete process that is not finalized unless the sinner dies in a state of perfect personal holiness (no mortal sin). We feel that this confuses sanctification with justification and makes the latter dependent on the former.

No one will die in a state of perfect personal holiness. However, because the person’s standing before God is not dependent on anything they have done, but is based on the righteousness of Christ, the person’s personal sin is not counted against them and they are counted/reckoned/imputed as fully perfect in His eyes.

 

[ralphinal]

In general terms, none of them. In particular to Roman Catholic theology, we disagree with the fact that Rome sees justification as an incomplete process that is not finalized unless the sinner dies in a state of perfect personal holiness (no mortal sin). We feel that this confuses sanctification with justification and makes the latter dependent on the former.

No one will die in a state of perfect personal holiness. However, because the person’s standing before God is not dependent on anything they have done, but is based on the righteousness of Christ, the person’s personal sin is not counted against them and they are counted/reckoned/imputed as fully perfect in His eyes.

Not exactly. Catholics see justification as a general event (all mankind) and as a specific event (applied to one person).

The general justification is, naturally, the Crucifixion. Specific justification starts with baptism. It is continued through the sacraments, until one dies. At that time, judgement (heaven or hell). Now if one is not perfect, purgatory, which leads to heaven.

This is from the Catholic Encyclopedia site on justification.

Only such faith as is active in charity and good works (fides caritate formata) can justify man, and this even before the actual reception of baptism or penance, although not without a desire of the sacrament (cf. Trent, Sess. VI, cap. iv, xiv). But, not to close the gates of heaven against pagans and those non-Catholics, who without their fault do not know or do not recognize the Sacraments of Baptism and Penance, Catholic theologians unanimously hold that the desire to receive these sacraments is implicitly contained in the serious resolve to do all that God has commanded, even if His holy will should not become known in every detail.

Further,

The Council of Trent decreed that the essence of active justification comprises not only forgiveness of sin, but also “sanctification and renovation of the interior man by means of the voluntary acceptation of sanctifying grace and other supernatural gifts” (Trent, l. c., cap. vii: “Non est sola peccatorum remissio, sed et sanctificatio et renovatio interioris hominis per voluntariam susceptionem gratiae et donorum”). In order to exclude the Protestant idea of a merely forensic absolution and exterior declaration of righteousness, special stress is laid on the fact that we are justified by God’s justice, not that whereby He himself is just but that whereby He makes us just, in so far as He bestows on us the gift of His grace which renovates the soul interiorly and adheres to it as the soul’s own holiness (Trent, l. c., cap. vii: “Unica formalis causa [justificationis] est justitia Dei, non qua ipse justus est, sed qua nos justos facit, qua videlicet ab eo donati, renovamur spiritu mentis nostrae: et non modo reputamur, sed vere justi nominamur et sumus, justitiam in nobis recipientes unusquisque suam”). This inner quality of righteousness and sanctity is universally termed “sanctifying (or habitual) grace”, and stands in marked contrast to an exterior, imputed sanctity, as well as to the idea of merely covering and concealing sin. By this, however, we do not assert that the “justitia Dei extra nos” is of no importance in the process of justification. For, even if it is not the formal cause of justification (causa formalis), it is nevertheless its true exemplar (causa exemplaris), inasmuch as the soul receives a sanctity in imitation of God’s own holiness. The Council of Trent (l. c. cap. vii), moreover, did not neglect to enumerate in detail the other causes of justification: the glory of God and of Christ as the final cause (causa finalis), the mercy of God as the efficient cause (causa efficiens), the Passion of Christ as the meritorious cause (causa meritoria), the reception of the Sacraments as the instrumental cause (causa instrumentalis). Thus each and every factor receives its full share and is assigned its proper place.

This is more than I had wanted to discuss with my line of thought. I will continue my thoughts on the next post.

 

[ralphinal]

Now, back to my earlier line of thought.

We are justified not by choice. We choose to work with God for sanctification. If we make it to the end we are saved.

How is salvation not tied to what we do?

 

[TriuneUnity]

Not exactly. Catholics see justification as a general event (all mankind) and as a specific event (applied to one person).

That much we would, of course, agree with.

The general justification is, naturally, the Crucifixion. Specific justification starts with baptism. It is continued through the sacraments, until one dies. At that time, judgement (heaven or hell). Now if one is not perfect, purgatory, which leads to heaven.

Therein lies the disagreement. Since justification, when applied to the individual sinner by Baptism, or conversion through the preaching of the Word, is based solely on the merits of Christ, it is not progressive because the righteousness of Christ cannot be added to or improved; it’s perfect. We feel that Rome confuses justification with the personal growth of holiness in sanctification. Purgatory is not necessary as well, since again, in God’s sight, we are perfectly holy.

 

[ralphinal]

That much we would, of course, agree with.

Therein lies the disagreement. Since justification, when applied to the individual sinner by Baptism, or conversion through the preaching of the Word, is based solely on the merits of Christ, it is not progressive because the righteousness of Christ cannot be added to or improved; it’s perfect. We feel that Rome confuses justification with the personal growth of holiness in sanctification. Purgatory is not necessary as well, since again, in God’s sight, we are perfectly holy.

Is sanctification needed for salvation? If one never acts on the grace given them by God, is there hope for them?

 

[TriuneUnity]

Is sanctification needed for salvation? If one never acts on the grace given them by God, is there hope for them?

Sanctification, strictly speaking, is needed for salvation. But the progression of the person’s sanctification is not. We don’t attach a qualifying level of sanctification that must be reached. If the person dies believing in Christ alone for his standing before God, we can confidently say that person will be with the Lord. No one will die sinless.

Justification will always result in some form of sanctifying grace, but there is no progression in justification. You are either perfectly righteous in God’s sight or you are not. There’s no inbetween. By confusing justification with sanctification, Rome has shifted the focus from the work of Christ to the performance of the person. Rome is not the only one to do this; modern neo-evangelicalism does the same thing. They just replace penance and rosaries with altar calls and “decisions for Jesus.”