SO all of the souls in prison who heard Christ preach of salvation and the opening of heaven did what is impossible? Moses did not keep the law perfectly. Neither did Isaah. Enoch? We know of people who made it to heaven and would have not known of Jesus and could not have kept the law perfectly. What was David’s fate? Noah’s? Abraham?The person who has no way to know about Christ can only get to heaven if they are able to keep the Law perfectly on their own. Since the answer to that is no, then they would not be able to. God does not will the salvation of all men in the sense that He makes it happen; He desires it to happen. There is a vast difference between those two terms. A judge in a courtroom may desire to find someone not guilty for their crimes, but he must act according to his just nature as judge. That is amplified to the tenth power when it comes to God, who, unlike a human judge, is perfectly just.
He uses the means of the Church to bring the lost into His kingdom and only the means of grace offered by the Church. This is why the Church’s mission is urgent before the Second Advent; it is a divine rescue mission to the lost.
There is nothing in Scripture that states in any way, shape, or form, that salvation is possible outside of faith in Christ.
I would interpret the passage about souls in prison in a different context than how you’re using it here. Be that as it may, the second part of your statement is more important to address…SO all of the souls in prison who heard Christ preach of salvation and the opening of heaven did what is impossible? Moses did not keep the law perfectly. Neither did Isaah. Enoch? We know of people who made it to heaven and would have not known of Jesus and could not have kept the law perfectly. What was David’s fate? Noah’s? Abraham?
If all have sinned and fallen short, then they are all in hell.
OK. I am fine with that. I still have trouble saying all Cherokees are in hell. It seems like Paul in Romans was saying that they are judged by the Natural law and not the Law of Moses.I would interpret the passage about souls in prison in a different context than how you’re using it here. Be that as it may, the second part of your statement is more important to address…
"The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “[Gen 12:3] ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.” Galatians 3:8
Although much of the gospel perhaps remained a mystery to the Jews, they saw it from afar (Heb 11) and evidently received enough for the Holy Spirit to apply toward their regeneration, apart from works of the Law. Even Jesus in the Gospel of John says “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” John 8:56
Aparently the Spiritual Jews of the first century deeply understood the implications and necessity of a Messiah for when Jesus is presented in the temple there was a man called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel so that when he saw Jesus he took him in his arms and praised God, saying:
“Sovereign Lord, as you have promised, you now dismiss your servant in peace. For my eyes have seen your salvation, which you have prepared in the sight of all people, a light for revelation to the Gentiles and for glory to your people Israel.”(Luke 2:29-32)
The Old Testament saints were saved by faith in the promised Messiah to come. They were given the Word, the promises, the covenants, and the rituals that foreshadowed Christ’s coming. Since Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world… the Old Testament saints were saved by faith in the Messiah to come (via the promises of God). The New Testament saints are saved by faith in the Christ who has come.
Well…the Law of Moses contains the Natural Law in the form of the decalogue. Regardless of that, however, they are no better off for being judged by Natural Law, since everyone has broken it.OK. I am fine with that. I still have trouble saying all Cherokees are in hell. It seems like Paul in Romans was saying that they are judged by the Natural law and not the Law of Moses.
Ys, but there is recourse for them. Think mortal and venial sin. If they keep natural law, the only sins they may have are venialWell…the Law of Moses contains the Natural Law in the form of the decalogue. Regardless of that, however, they are no better off for being judged by Natural Law, since everyone has broken it.
The only problem is, they can’t and don’t keep the Natural Law. As much as God desires their salvation, their prayers to false deities go unheard.Ys, but there is recourse for them. Think mortal and venial sin. If they keep natural law, the only sins they may have are venial
OK that is another issue altogether. Let’s say you have one like the Greeks who decided that there was only one God, and that God had ot be Good. Set aside the paganism. We know that there were Greeks who worshiped the “Unknown God” that Paul said was God.The only problem is, they can’t and don’t keep the Natural Law. As much as God desires their salvation, their prayers to false deities go unheard.
That’s true; but that, as Paul states in Romans 1, is because the knowledge that there is one God, and that He is the God revealed to the Jews is imprinted on the heart of mankind, as well as all of His divine attributes; goodness, justice, omniscience, etc.OK that is another issue altogether. Let’s say you have one like the Greeks who decided that there was only one God, and that God had ot be Good. Set aside the paganism. We know that there were Greeks who worshiped the “Unknown God” that Paul said was God.
Well said. Abraham had faith.I would interpret the passage about souls in prison in a different context than how you’re using it here. Be that as it may, the second part of your statement is more important to address…
"The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “[Gen 12:3] ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.” Galatians 3:8
Although much of the gospel perhaps remained a mystery to the Jews, they saw it from afar (Heb 11) and evidently received enough for the Holy Spirit to apply toward their regeneration, apart from works of the Law. Even Jesus in the Gospel of John says “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” John 8:56
Aparently the Spiritual Jews of the first century deeply understood the implications and necessity of a Messiah for when Jesus is presented in the temple there was a man called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel so that when he saw Jesus he took him in his arms and praised God, saying:
“Sovereign Lord, as you have promised, you now dismiss your servant in peace. For my eyes have seen your salvation, which you have prepared in the sight of all people, a light for revelation to the Gentiles and for glory to your people Israel.”(Luke 2:29-32)
The Old Testament saints were saved by faith in the promised Messiah to come. They were given the Word, the promises, the covenants, and the rituals that foreshadowed Christ’s coming. Since Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world… the Old Testament saints were saved by faith in the Messiah to come (via the promises of God). The New Testament saints are saved by faith in the Christ who has come.
I still have trouble saying all Cherokees are in hell.
I agree with both of you, but what references in scripture do we have for these statements, particularly from the New Testament?I see no reason why there might not have been someone living e.g. in Japan in 50 B.C., or 50 A.D., who had faith and was saved.
I just thought of a good one, actually: Genesis 20.I agree with both of you, but what references in scripture do we have for these statements, particularly from the New Testament?
Me too. For me, the question initially took the form of how to avoid saying that God predestines some people to hell.This is something I have been thinking about for a few days and invincible ignorance.
In order to avoid this, we must accept that everyone in hell chose to be there. That said, it means that everyone who is damned had the opportunity to act on enough grace in their lives to be saved. So, all men are given ample opportunities. God knows the end, but He does not force it.Me too. For me, the question initially took the form of how to avoid saying that God predestines some people to hell.
The reason that I would not say someone living in Japan in 50 B.C. was ever saved is the assumption is that simple faith in a god or good conduct grants salvation. The Scriptures say that faith in the living God and His promises saves. Without the knowledge of redemption that God has given in his word, and in the Word made flesh, faith in those promises are not possible.Well said. Abraham had faith.
I would like to add that generally we don’t know who else had faith. The OT gives us a few examples of people before Abraham (e.g. Noah and Shem) and a great many after Abraham; but no where is it said that this is an exhaustive list.
I see no reason why there might not have been someone living e.g. in Japan in 50 B.C., or 50 A.D., who had faith and was saved.
It’s certainly true that Abimelech believed in God because God directly spoke to him. Also at that point in time, the God worshipped by Noah and his offspring was known.I just thought of a good one, actually: Genesis 20.
King Abimelech was unknown to Abraham. Note verse 11. But it turned out that Abimelech believed in God before ever meeting Abraham.
A Calvinist lie and thoroughly unbiblical. Man is solely responsible for his unbelief, rejection, and eternal damnation.Me too. For me, the question initially took the form of how to avoid saying that God predestines some people to hell.
The reason that I would not say someone living in Japan in 50 B.C. was ever saved is the assumption is that simple faith in a god or good conduct grants salvation. The Scriptures say that faith in the living God and His promises saves. Without the knowledge of redemption that God has given in his word, and in the Word made flesh, faith in those promises are not possible.
You’re right, the bible doesn’t say that Abimelech was saved. And I definitely wouldn’t make a generalization like “simple faith in a god or good conduct grants salvation”.It’s certainly true that Abimelech believed in God because God directly spoke to him. Also at that point in time, the God worshipped by Noah and his offspring was known.
It does not say that Abimelech was saved, however. Nor does faith in God come through the knowledge given by Abraham alone. The point here is that the Word must still come to sinners in some way for salvation.
But we are told that trust or belief in a false god is not faith, but idolatry. Since God did not savingly reveal Himself to any but the Jews, and now through His Son, by means of the church in word and sacrament, “faith” in a god who doesn’t exist is not saving grace.You’re right, the bible doesn’t say that Abimelech was saved. And I definitely wouldn’t make a generalization like “simple faith in a god or good conduct grants salvation”.
But the point is that we haven’t been told anything to indicate that Abimelech wasn’t saved, or that no one in Japan in 50 B.C. wasn’t saved, etc – only that if they were saved, they were saved through faith.
I learned the other day that Jews do not consider non-Jews able to practice idolitry in the classic sense. They were not told of God, so they are not culpable of worshipping the wrong one.But we are told that trust or belief in a false god is not faith, but idolatry. Since God did not savingly reveal Himself to any but the Jews, and now through His Son, by means of the church in word and sacrament, “faith” in a god who doesn’t exist is not saving grace.
Isn’t it in the Bible that man cannot know if he is not taught and he cannot be taught unless some are sent?A Calvinist lie and thoroughly unbiblical. Man is solely responsible for his unbelief, rejection, and eternal damnation.