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SCALCO
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Do you have a source? I just would be interested in reading more about it. Thanks
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TriuneUnity
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This contradicts the teaching of Scripture. The opinion of Jews, therefore, on the matter are irrelevent. God does not make this exception either in the Old or New Testaments.
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TriuneUnity
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Those who do not have the mercy of Christ preached to them through Word and sacrament know nothing of the true mercy of God found in Jesus. This is the only place the gospel is revealed to mankind.
If they know not Christ, they only know the Law, and will be judged according to it.
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SCALCO
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What are the possible outcomes of being judged according to the Law? I am not sure what that means exactly. Do you think this means they cannot have salvation? Or, we cannot know for certain?
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Peter_J
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So do you say that Abimelech did not have faith? Or are you open to the possibility that he did?
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IowaJay
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In reading your post, I suggest that you read the joint statements of the ten rounds of Catholic/Lutheran dialogues that have have taken place since the mid-60s.
I reference one of them here in another thread which gives a partial answer to your question as regards to communion:
See post #107:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=256158&page=8
As has been pointed out in responses to that post, then-Cardinal Ratzinger is not necessarily saying Lutheran communion is equivalent to Catholic communion. But he was clearly saying that Lutheran communion is not just playing bread and wine.
Also, the Lutheran sacrament of baptism is viewed as efficacious by the Catholic church.
So, that’s what Lutheran sacraments do - their baptisms are as equally valid as Catholic baptisms, and in Lutheran communion, there is the salvation-granting presence of the Lord, even though it may not be the same as a Catholic Eucharist.
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TriuneUnity
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I am open to the possibility, being that the LORD revealed Himself to Abimelech. At best any answer would be conjecture.
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Peter_J
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ralphinal
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If you are an optimist, as Catholics are supposed to be, then those found worth of the Law go the heaven, the rest hell.
If you are a pessimist, as non-Catholics are supposed to be (
), they are damned because no one can keep the law.Now, Paul said as much, but he was talking about the Law of Moses, not natural law.
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TriuneUnity
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But the Law of Moses contains the natural Law…so even if you’re including Mosaic rituals such as circumcision, or kosher…it also includes the moral Law contained in the decalogue.If you are an optimist, as Catholics are supposed to be, then those found worth of the Law go the heaven, the rest hell.
If you are a pessimist, as non-Catholics are supposed to be (
Now, Paul said as much, but he was talking about the Law of Moses, not natural law.
Paul brings both Jews and Gentiles under the verdict of guilty unless you are justified through faith in Christ.
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TriuneUnity
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Well, if you can keep it perfectly, then eternal life is the reward. Does anyone keep it? No, not one. So salvation can only be found through the imputed righteousness of the One who did keep the Law, and paid the penalty for your violation of it.
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Peter_J
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Actually, I believe the Catholic Church agrees with the Lutheran teaching on this particular question.If you are an optimist, as Catholics are supposed to be, then those found worth of the Law go the heaven, the rest hell.
If you are a pessimist, as non-Catholics are supposed to be (
Now, Paul said as much, but he was talking about the Law of Moses, not natural law.
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ralphinal
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Yes, but the natural law does not include that of Moses. You cannot keep Moses and fail natural, but the inverse is possible.
And you didn’t bite on my jab
.Paul makes it clear that it is harder on the Jews than pagans.
In the end, any and all salvation depends on God’s mercy through Christ’s work on earth.
If no one can keep the law, and God knows that, how is it not doublt predestination? You are making God sound like the Jigsaw in those movies.
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TriuneUnity
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Could you clarify that?
I am too busy ducking Peter’s body blows.And you didn’t bite on my jab
That’s probably true. Can you imagine not being able to eat Italian sausages?
Because Calvinism states that God ultimately decrees who will be sent to perdition. We say it is ultimately man and man alone.
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ralphinal
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A Jew can keep the Natural LAw and fail to keep the law of Moses. However, failure for him to keep the Natural Law will automatically cause him to fail to keep the Law of Moses.
Float like a butterfly.
And that is one reason I shall die before I convert to Islam.That’s probably true. Can you imagine not being able to eat Italian sausages?
Correct. But if it is man’s choice, and it is, and we hold that God does not stack the deck against anyone (i.e. everyone has ample chances), then there will be non-Christians in heaven.
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TriuneUnity
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I would agree with the second half of your statement. The first, however, is denied by the apostle Paul because he has stated that no one can keep either the natural Law or the Law of Moses. The proposition of your first statement would be correct if anyone could keep the natural Law.
Amen.
God doesn’t stack the deck. Man has dealt himself his own hand and brought the curse upon himself. Therefore, there will be no non-Christians in heaven, because all men everywhere are playing with no cards and the Law always has a royal flush.
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MDK
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I suggest you please reread and understand both what it means, and what it does not mean. I stand by what I said about the Lutheran “priesthood” not being validly in the line of Apostolic Succession. Does Ratzinger say that a Lutheran “priest” can consecrate a host as in Transubstantiation, or forgive sins like one validly in the line of Apostolic Succession can? He does not! Nevertheless, this does not prevent Christ’s Spirit from being with those who are gathered in His Name. Having Christ with you in Spirit is certainly a good thing, is it not? This is wonderful, and even greater when in the Catholic Church, as He is present Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity, available to us in the Holy Eucharist just the same as at the Last Supper. In a related manner, the confessions in the Catholic Church are valid with the same authority Jesus first gave to His Apostles almost 2000 years ago. Ratzinger and others are trying to be charitable, reaching out to bring them into the fullness of truth, from which where they stand now, are not.
The sacraments I referenced, I stand by. I intentionally listed three, and didn’t speak about Baptism, nor marriage, did I? Actually, in certain cases, you can baptize legitimately if you know what to do.
I reiterate, the Lutheran priesthood is not valid, in the line of Apostolic Succession passed down from Christ to His successors, and on. Unless you have a valid priesthood, how can you consecrate the host into the real and true Body of Christ, like He instituted at the last supper?
Likewise, without Apostolic Succession, neither can a Lutheran “priest” forgive sins, as a valid and licit Catholic Priest can.
Obviously, since the Apostolic Succession was broken, how can one have valid holy orders as are found in the Catholic Church?"
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IowaJay
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It is not quite clear which ecumenical document Cardinal Ratzinger was referring to in his 1993 letter. However, the most likely candidate would be the joint statement from Lutherans and Catholics in Dialogue IV: Eucharist and Ministry (1970). This is what it says in paragraph 54:
“As Roman Catholic theologians, we acknowledge in the spirit of Vatican II that the Lutheran communities with which we have been in dialogue are truly Christian churches, possessing the elements of holiness and truth that mark them as organs of grace and salvation. Furthermore, in our study we have found serious defects in the arguments customarily used against the validity of the eucharistic Ministry of the Lutheran churches. In fact, we see no persuasive reason to deny the possibility of the Roman Catholic church recognizing the validity of this Ministry. Accordingly we ask the authorities of the Roman Catholic church whether the ecumenical urgency flowing from Christ’s will for unity may not dictate that the Roman Catholic church recognize the validity of the Lutheran Ministry, and, correspondingly, the presence of the body and blood of Christ in the eucharistic celebrations of the Lutheran churches.”
Unless you can come up with an alternative document that Cardinal Ratzinger was referring to in his 1993 letter, I think this proves that he was indeed sympathetic to the concept that eucharistic validity can exist outside of Catholic/Orthodox apostolic succession.
“As Roman Catholic theologians, we acknowledge in the spirit of Vatican II that the Lutheran communities with which we have been in dialogue are truly Christian churches, possessing the elements of holiness and truth that mark them as organs of grace and salvation. Furthermore, in our study we have found serious defects in the arguments customarily used against the validity of the eucharistic Ministry of the Lutheran churches. In fact, we see no persuasive reason to deny the possibility of the Roman Catholic church recognizing the validity of this Ministry. Accordingly we ask the authorities of the Roman Catholic church whether the ecumenical urgency flowing from Christ’s will for unity may not dictate that the Roman Catholic church recognize the validity of the Lutheran Ministry, and, correspondingly, the presence of the body and blood of Christ in the eucharistic celebrations of the Lutheran churches.”
Unless you can come up with an alternative document that Cardinal Ratzinger was referring to in his 1993 letter, I think this proves that he was indeed sympathetic to the concept that eucharistic validity can exist outside of Catholic/Orthodox apostolic succession.
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Peter_J
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TriuneUnity
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Are you threatning me? Don’t make me bring out my upgraded Potiphar Pokemon.
By the way, to try and be serious LOL…no non-Christians refers to modern times, not pre-Christian. Although the Old Testament saints were “Christian” in that they were “saved.”
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