Martin Luther anti-semitic?

[robwar]

Luvtosew,

I can answer that. Do a search for Luther’s** On the Jews and Their Lies**. It’s such an offensive work, I will not link it. It’s easy to find online.

Hitler quoted Luther’s work to help justify his atrocities against the Jews.

Anna

This is true. when i was Protestant, the Jews for Jesus speaker was brought in and he spoke about blocks for Jews in accepting Christ and one of the blocks was Martin Luther. This was towards the end of his life and he was frustrated that Jews did not accept his version of the Christian faith. He came up with a 6 step plan to eliminate the Jews. I remember this so clearly because the whole church just gasped, because it is a dirty little secret about Luther. The speaker felt that Luther was bitter and angry (he was) and took it out on the Jews. While this is brought up not to bash Lutherans and even white wash a number of horrible things done to Jews by Catholics, it is mentioned because accusations are often leveled against Catholics in this manor, especially with the fiction of “Hilter’s Pope”. If reporters were really interested in Christian support of what Hilter was doing, they would have looked at Luther. I have heard Lutheran speak that they are embarrassed how few Lutheran pastors spoke out against Hilter.

 

[Anna_Scott]

This is true. when i was Protestant, the Jews for Jesus speaker was brought in and he spoke about blocks for Jews in accepting Christ and one of the blocks was Martin Luther. This was towards the end of his life and he was frustrated that Jews did not accept his version of the Christian faith. He came up with a 6 step plan to eliminate the Jews. I remember this so clearly because the whole church just gasped, because it is a dirty little secret about Luther. The speaker felt that Luther was bitter and angry (he was) and took it out on the Jews. While this is brought up not to bash Lutherans and even white wash a number of horrible things done to Jews by Catholics, it is mentioned because accusations are often leveled against Catholics in this manor, especially with the fiction of “Hilter’s Pope”. If reporters were really interested in Christian support of what Hilter was doing, they would have looked at Luther. I have heard Lutheran speak that they are embarrassed how few Lutheran pastors spoke out against Hilter.

robwar,

But when we are all really honest, it is difficult to throw a stone into the past without landing on persecutions at the hands of Christians, regardless of their affiliation within Christendom.

I’ve read Jewish authors who said they could not see God in the lives of Christians. Sadly, the Christian history of violence has caused a great deal of damage to the call of the true Gospel of Christ.

As Christians, we tend to forget our past; but many non-Christians know history well.

Didn’t Mahatma Gandhi say, “Christianity is a great idea that has never been tried”?

Peace,
Anna

 

[JonNC]

This is true. when i was Protestant, the Jews for Jesus speaker was brought in and he spoke about blocks for Jews in accepting Christ and one of the blocks was Martin Luther. This was towards the end of his life and he was frustrated that Jews did not accept his version of the Christian faith. He came up with a 6 step plan to eliminate the Jews. I remember this so clearly because the whole church just gasped, because it is a dirty little secret about Luther. The speaker felt that Luther was bitter and angry (he was) and took it out on the Jews. While this is brought up not to bash Lutherans and even white wash a number of horrible things done to Jews by Catholics, it is mentioned because accusations are often leveled against Catholics in this manor, especially with the fiction of “Hilter’s Pope”. If reporters were really interested in Christian support of what Hilter was doing, they would have looked at Luther. I have heard Lutheran speak that they are embarrassed how few Lutheran pastors spoke out against Hilter.

This is essentally true, from my understanding, except that I don’t believe it safe to say that Luther would have supported Hitler, as you imply in the bolded. Certainly, Hitler used Luther’s words, and I don’t if he used Ecke’s words, or if he didn’t why he didn’t.
It must also be stated that there was a fair amount of Lutherans who did oppose him, including and most notably Bonhoeffer.

Jon

 

[robwar]

This is essentally true, from my understanding, except that I don’t believe it safe to say that Luther would have supported Hitler, as you imply in the bolded. Certainly, Hitler used Luther’s words, and I don’t if he used Ecke’s words, or if he didn’t why he didn’t.
It must also be stated that there was a fair amount of Lutherans who did oppose him, including and most notably Bonhoeffer.

Jon

First of all I am sorry to imply that Luther would have support Hilter. For one thing, Luther is hundreds of years before him and I know many Lutherans disagree with what Luther wrote and are embarrassed by the use of Luther by Hilter. Bonheoffer is a wonderful example and I did read his book. I think I wanted to point out that often anti-semtism is leveled mostly against the Catholic Church especially during WW II and what other Christians did or didn’t do is rarely mentioned. Hilter was an evil occultist and not a Christian by anyone’s standards Catholic or Protestant. Germany was mostly a Lutheran country. What is very scary is how a predominately Christian Country ended up following Hilter seemingly whole heartedly and what he lead them to do. I never forgot what the Jews for Jesus speaker shared that day. Being Protestant at the time, Luther was idolized and it made me take a second look at Luther and a number of things he did actually write and that was a start of my Journey into the Catholic Church. I am sorry about the earlier implications.

 

[robwar]

robwar,

But when we are all really honest, it is difficult to throw a stone into the past without landing on persecutions at the hands of Christians, regardless of their affiliation within Christendom.

I’ve read Jewish authors who said they could not see God in the lives of Christians. Sadly, the Christian history of violence has caused a great deal of damage to the call of the true Gospel of Christ.

As Christians, we tend to forget our past; but many non-Christians know history well.

Didn’t Mahatma Gandhi say, “Christianity is a great idea that has never been tried”?

Peace,
Anna

Yes, I do agree with you. I think often this stuff is just pinned on the Catholic Church only.
I do think that 99.999% of Lutherans regardless of which branch they are from are against what Luther wrote. Luther had a rather violent and somewhat crude or earthy style of writing and he wrote rather harshly against anyone who disagreed with him which included Jews. The talk I heard at the time and I was Protestant then was a shock since I grew-up with Luther as the model. It made me take a 2nd look at him and was the start of becoming CAtholic. It made me question a number of things Luther wrote and believed in.
If you really read the things Luther wrote, he does seem like a very angry man and on the edge. It’s a shame that some evil person liked Hilter used what Luther wrote 400 years ago. It would be dishonest not to talk about it.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Yes, I do agree with you. I think often this stuff is just pinned on the Catholic Church only.
I do think that 99.999% of Lutherans regardless of which branch they are from are against what Luther wrote. Luther had a rather violent and somewhat crude or earthy style of writing and he wrote rather harshly against anyone who disagreed with him which included Jews. The talk I heard at the time and I was Protestant then was a shock since I grew-up with Luther as the model. It made me take a 2nd look at him and was the start of becoming CAtholic. It made me question a number of things Luther wrote and believed in.
If you really read the things Luther wrote, he does seem like a very angry man and on the edge. It’s a shame that some evil person liked Hilter used what Luther wrote 400 years ago. It would be dishonest not to talk about it.

robwar,

I think there is a lesson in this for all of us. We are all human and make mistakes.

It appears that Luther was, in many ways, a tortured man. It’s unfortunate that he committed his anger to the written page. Once a writing is out there, it can be used in ways one could never imagine, even hundreds of years later.

Writing in today’s “social media” format can bring about unexpected and often unimaginable consequences, as well. The words that we speak and the words that we write are very powerful; and we never really know how they will be used at a later date.

What we write on these forums matters. A thread may have a few hundred replies, but thousands of views. I’ve done Internet searches on topics and found my own CAF posts come up. Kinda makes you think. . . .

Peace,
Anna

P.S. This thread contains 23 replies and 861 views.

 

[Publisher]

robwar,

But when we are all really honest, it is difficult to throw a stone into the past without landing on persecutions at the hands of Christians, regardless of their affiliation within Christendom.

I’ve read Jewish authors who said they could not see God in the lives of Christians. Sadly, the Christian history of violence has caused a great deal of damage to the call of the true Gospel of Christ.

As Christians, we tend to forget our past; but many non-Christians know history well.

Didn’t Mahatma Gandhi say, “Christianity is a great idea that has never been tried”?
Peace,
Anna

Yes he did…he also said something to the effect “I have no problem with Jesus…it’s his followers I have the problem with.”

Some insights cut deep not because they are false…but because they are true.

 

[JonNC]

=robwar;9070986]First of all I am sorry to imply that Luther would have support Hilter. For one thing, Luther is hundreds of years before him and I know many Lutherans disagree with what Luther wrote and are embarrassed by the use of Luther by Hilter. Bonheoffer is a wonderful example and I did read his book. I think I wanted to point out that often anti-semtism is leveled mostly against the Catholic Church especially during WW II and what other Christians did or didn’t do is rarely mentioned.

I actually thought that the implication was unintentional, but I wanted to clear it up. So, no problem, and no need to apologize.

Hilter was an evil occultist and not a Christian by anyone’s standards Catholic or Protestant. Germany was mostly a Lutheran country. What is very scary is how a predominately Christian Country ended up following Hilter seemingly whole heartedly and what he lead them to do. I never forgot what the Jews for Jesus speaker shared that day. Being Protestant at the time, Luther was idolized and it made me take a second look at Luther and a number of things he did actually write and that was a start of my Journey into the Catholic Church. I am sorry about the earlier implications.

I agree here about the unfounded attacks on the Catholic Church of that era, and also that it is amazing that a Christian country like Germany - Catholic, Lutheran, and Reformed - fell into such an evil event.
You are right that lutherans do reject the anti-judaism of Luther, as Catholics reject the anti-judaism of Ecke and others of the same era. It is one more thing we completely agree on.

Finally, ISTM that anti-semitism is probably the wrong term. Luther and others of that time opposed the religion. Anti-semitism seems to be targeted at the race, which I think is somewhat different. Not better or worse, just different.

Jon

 

[Anna_Scott]

. . .Finally, ISTM that anti-semitism is probably the wrong term. Luther and others of that time opposed the religion. Anti-semitism seems to be targeted at the race, which I think is somewhat different. Not better or worse, just different.

Jon

Jon,
It seems that Luther became anti-Jewish after the Jews rejected his offer to enter the Christian Church on his terms. So, perhaps he was not anti-Semitic, but ant-Jewish. Could be a fine line between the two.

Peace,
Anna

 

[robwar]

robwar,

I think there is a lesson in this for all of us. We are all human and make mistakes.

It appears that Luther was, in many ways, a tortured man. It’s unfortunate that he committed his anger to the written page. Once a writing is out there, it can be used in ways one could never imagine, even hundreds of years later.

Writing in today’s “social media” format can bring about unexpected and often unimaginable consequences, as well. The words that we speak and the words that we write are very powerful; and we never really know how they will be used at a later date.

What we write on these forums matters. A thread may have a few hundred replies, but thousands of views. I’ve done Internet searches on topics and found my own CAF posts come up. Kinda makes you think. . . .

Peace,

Anna,
I agree 100% with you and I in no way think that 99.999% of Lutherans agree with what he wrote and I in no way wanted to bash them or any other Christian group. I do think it is honest to talk about it though. the conversation i hope will make all of us think about what we post and write. it is also important to think why a predominately Christian nation ended up following Hilter. It is important to learn from the past in order to try and not repeat the mistakes.

Anna

P.S. This thread contains 23 replies and 861 views.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Anna,
I agree 100% with you and I in no way think that 99.999% of Lutherans agree with what he wrote and I in no way wanted to bash them or any other Christian group. I do think it is honest to talk about it though. the conversation i hope will make all of us think about what we post and write. it is also important to think why a predominately Christian nation ended up following Hilter. It is important to learn from the past in order to try and not repeat the mistakes.

robwar,
I understand ; and I agree that it is important to talk about it. Hopefully, we can learn from the mistakes of the past. Though, when I look at the world today; I wonder how well we are doing . . . .

Peace,
Anna

 

[Bob_Crowley]

I lifted this off Wikipedia

• In his book The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, William L. Shirer wrote:

It is difficult to understand the behavior of most German Protestants in the first Nazi years unless one is aware of two things: their history and the influence of Martin Luther. The great founder of Protestantism was both a passionate anti-Semite and a ferocious believer in absolute obedience to political authority. He wanted Germany rid of the Jews. Luther’s advice was literally followed four centuries later by Hitler, Goering and Himmler.[63]

You can read the whole article on “Martin Luther and Antisemitism” at -

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_and_antisemitism

 

[Andromedus]

Jon,
It seems that Luther became anti-Jewish after the Jews rejected his offer to enter the Christian Church on his terms. So, perhaps he was not anti-Semitic, but ant-Jewish. Could be a fine line between the two.

Peace,
Anna

In my post on the first page I quoted something which seems to imply something else.

If I had to baptize a Jew, I would take him to the bridge of the Elbe, hang a stone around his neck and push him over with the words "I baptize thee in the name of Abraham’’.

 

[JonNC]

“Could [the Jews] but drown all Christians in one spoon, they would eagerly do it.”
Johannes Ecke - Catholic theologian and Luther contemporary.

His anti-jewish writings included, “Refutation of a Jew - book”

I do not point this out to condemn Ecke, though Luther’s anti-jewish writings are often used to condemn Luther. I point this out to show that both Lutherans and Catholics of that era shared a condemnable vitriol for Jews. Neither Catholics nor Lutherans have a pristine record regarding this from the 1500’s. And before we point the finger at each other, we should be on our knees seeking forgiveness for this our shared past.

Jon

 

[Anna_Scott]

“Could [the Jews] but drown all Christians in one spoon, they would eagerly do it.”
Johannes Ecke - Catholic theologian and Luther contemporary.

His anti-jewish writings included, “Refutation of a Jew - book”

I do not point this out to condemn Ecke, though Luther’s anti-jewish writings are often used to condemn Luther. I point this out to show that both Lutherans and Catholics of that era shared a condemnable vitriol for Jews. Neither Catholics nor Lutherans have a pristine record regarding this from the 1500’s. And before we point the finger at each other, we should be on our knees seeking forgiveness for this our shared past.

Jon

Jon,
Valid point.

As I said before:

robwar,

But when we are all really honest, it is difficult to throw a stone into the past without landing on persecutions at the hands of Christians, regardless of their affiliation within Christendom.

I’ve read Jewish authors who said they could not see God in the lives of Christians. Sadly, the Christian history of violence has caused a great deal of damage to the call of the true Gospel of Christ.

As Christians, we tend to forget our past; but many non-Christians know history well.

Didn’t Mahatma Gandhi say, “Christianity is a great idea that has never been tried”?

Peace,
Anna

robwar,

I think there is a lesson in this for all of us. We are all human and make mistakes.

It appears that Luther was, in many ways, a tortured man. It’s unfortunate that he committed his anger to the written page. Once a writing is out there, it can be used in ways one could never imagine, even hundreds of years later.

Writing in today’s “social media” format can bring about unexpected and often unimaginable consequences, as well. The words that we speak and the words that we write are very powerful; and we never really know how they will be used at a later date.

What we write on these forums matters. A thread may have a few hundred replies, but thousands of views. I’ve done Internet searches on topics and found my own CAF posts come up. Kinda makes you think. . . .

Peace,
Anna

P.S. This thread contains 23 replies and 861 views.

Peace and blessings,
Anna

P.S. The views for this thread are up to 1080.