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Angainor
Guest
Actually there was or never will be a Christian outside the True Church. Jesus did establish the True Church of all believers. It is a spiritual church. Only Jesus knows all the names on the membership list.
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jimmy
Guest
Yes, Jesus is the only one who knows the list, but there are certainly Christians outside the True Church. Look at Christ’s reference to the vine with the branches. He will cut some off from the vine. They are removed from the True Church when they reject the truth. Granted, there are many protestants that are part of the true Church, but it is out of ignorance. Luther removed himself from the true Church when he became a heretic, whether he was part of the Church at death I do not know. Same with Calvin and Zwingley and Every other heretic. They are removed from the true Church.
Yes, the Church is very spiritual, but it is also very physical too. The Church was established as a physical body on earth. Look at the references of Ignatius to the schismatics. He very clearly condemns them. He was writing in the first century. Look at the writings of Irenaeus. He says, “all churches should agree with the Church of Rome on account of its pre-eminent authority.” He then goes on to trace the bishop of Rome from the apostles. In the very next chapter he says, “Since therefore we have such proofs, it is not necessary to seek the truth among others which it is easy to obtain from the Church; since the apostles, like a rich man [depositing his money] in a bank, lodged in her hands most copiously all things pertaining to the truth: so that every man, whosoever will, can draw from her the water of life.11 For she is the entrance to life; all others are thieves and robbers. On this account are we bound to avoid them, but to make choice of the thing pertaining to the Church with the utmost diligence, and to lay hold of the tradition of the truth.”[Irenaeus;Against Heresies Book 3]
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RSiscoe
Guest
There is actually another quote from St. Theresa. The other quote says “Luther and Calvin are in hell and their torments increase with each person who is damned for one of their errors”.
I am not sure what book I read that in. It may have been in St. Theresa’s autobiography (a very big book). I have ben trying to find the quote for about a year. If you can locate it, please post the reference.
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Ahimsa
Guest
One thing I liked about Luther: he always knew how to sin and sin boldly!
Did Luther really say, “Sin boldly!” Yes, but one cannot understand what he was saying at all without the rest of the sentence “…but believe more bolder still.” To see what he was speaking about we need to look at the letter from which these bold words are lifted. He wrote in the translation we have here, “God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world.” He wrote this to his colleague Philipp Melachthon from his hiding place, the Wartburg Castle, in 1521.
Did Luther really say, “Sin boldly!” Yes, but one cannot understand what he was saying at all without the rest of the sentence “…but believe more bolder still.” To see what he was speaking about we need to look at the letter from which these bold words are lifted. He wrote in the translation we have here, “God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world.” He wrote this to his colleague Philipp Melachthon from his hiding place, the Wartburg Castle, in 1521.
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Seeks_God
Guest
I think what was meant was that Luther dcenied the Christ instilled authority of the pope…
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SusanL
Guest
And that is truly sad because if you are going to trust Christ (and love him) then you will do your utmost to avoid sin not embrace it like Luther here implies.
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Ahimsa
Guest
But don’t the greatest sinners make the greatest saints? (See St. Paul.)
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SusanL
Guest
Only if they make a complete 180 and discourage sin. Also, it took Jesus to knock him flat on his behind to knock some sense into him.
I don’t see St. Therese of the Little Flower being one of the greatest sinners yet she is a Doctor of the Church.
J
jimmy
Guest
St. Paul discouraged sin. Luther is saying that sin doesn’t matter.
E
exoflare
Guest
Thanks, ddimitro… I was the one who requested that info. 
R
RSiscoe
Guest
If you like that quote from Luther, you should love these:
Martin Luther:“Christ was an adulterer for the first time with the woman at the well, for it was said, “Nobody knows what he’s doing with her”. Again, with Magdalene, and still again with the adulterous woman in John 8 <:2-11>, whom he let off so easily. So the good Christ had to become an adulterer before he died.”(Luther’s Works, American Edition, Volume 54, p 154)
Martin Luther: *"Many sweat to reconcile St. Paul and St. James, but in vain. “**‘Faith justifies’ and ‘faith does not justify’ contradict each other flatly. If any one can harmonize them I will give him my doctor’s hood and let him call me a fool.” *
Regarding the book of James, which says we are not justificed by faith alone, Luther said: "[the book of James is] “an epistle of straw.” “I do not hold it” he declared*, “to be his writing, and I cannot place it among the capital books” (The facts about Luther, page 203). “I maintain that some Jew wrote it, who probably heard about Christian people but never encountered any.” "We should throw the Epistle of James out of this school [the University of Wittenberg]…*
Regarding the book of Hebrews, Luther wrote: *"The fact that Hebrews is not an epistle of St. Paul, or of any other apostle, is proved by what it says in chapter two.… “It need not surprise one to find here, bits of wood, hay, and stubble (The Facts about Luther pg. 203).” *
The apocalypse (Revelation): “There are many things objectionable in this book. To my mind it bears upon it no marks of an apostolic or prophetic character… Everyone may form his or her own judgment of this book; as for myself, I feel an aversion to it, and to me this is sufficient reason for rejecting it” (Martin Luther).
Regarding his own spiritual life, Luther wrote: “I confess, and many others could undoubtedly make an equal confession, that I am now more negligent than I was under the Pope: and there is now nowhere such an amount of earnestness under the Gospel, as was formerly seen among monks and priests” (Walch,XI.1311).
“I find myself here” proclaimed Luther on the day of his ex-communication, “insensate and hardened, established in idleness. Oh, woe! Praying little, and ceasing to moan for the Church of God, because my untamed flesh burns in great flames. In short, I, who should have the fervor of the spirit, have the fervor of the flesh, of licentiousness, sloth, idleness, and somnolence” (Briefe, Sendschreiben und Bedenken, II, p.22).
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RSiscoe
Guest
Luther: “I burn " said Luther " with a thousand flames in my unsubdued flesh: I feel myself carried on with a rage towards women that approached madness. I, who ought to be fervent in spirit, am only fervent in impurity” (Table Talk). “But there were also false prophets among the people… Having eyes full of adultery and full of sin that ceaseth not.”
Luther on polygamy: “I confess that I cannot forbid a person to marry several wives, for it does not contradict the Scripture” (De Wette II, 459).
The fruits of his so called “reformation”:
**
*“This one will not hear of Baptism, that one denies the Sacraments, another puts a world between this and the last day: some teach that Christ is not God, some say this, some say that: there are about as many sects and creeds as there are heads. No Yokel is so rude but when he has dreams and fancies, he thinks himself inspired by the Holy Ghost and must be a prophet” (M. Luther, De Wette III,61). *
*“Noblemen, townsmen, peasants, all classes understand the Evangelium better than I or St. Paul” said Luther " they are now wise and think themselves more learned than all the ministers" (M. Luther, Walch XIV, 1360). *
*“There is no smearer but whenever he has heard a sermon or can read a chapter in German, makes a doctor of himself, and crowns his ***, convincing himself that he knows everything better than all who teach him” (M. Luther, Walch V.1652). *
*“How many doctors have I made by preaching and writing” asked Luther in frustration “Now they say, Be off with you. Go off with you. Go to the devil. Thus it must be. When we preach they laugh. …when we get angry and threaten them, they mock us, snap their fingers at us and laugh in their sleeves” (M. Luther, Walch VII.2310). *
“When we have heard or learned a few things about Holy Scripture” admitted Luther “we think we are already doctors and have swallowed the Holy Ghost, feathers and all” (M. Luther, Walch V.472).
Luther: “After we understood that good works are not necessary for justification, I became much more remiss and cold in doing good… and if we could return now to the old state of things and if the doctrine of the necessity of good works to be holy could be revived, our alacrity and promptness in doing good would be different” (M. Luther Werke, XXVII, p. 443).
Luther: “The Gospel today [Luther’s Gospel of faith alone] finds adherents who are convinced that it is nothing but a doctrine that serves to fill their bellies and give free reign to all their impulses” (M. Luther, Werke, XXXII, p. 2)
“Since the downfall of Popery and the cessation’s of ex-communications and spiritual penalties the people have learned to despise the word of God. They are no longer for the churches; they have ceased to fear and honor God… I would wish, if it were possible, to leave these men without a preacher or pastor” complained Luther in utter frustration "and let them live like swine. There is no longer any fear or love of God among them. After throwing off the yoke of the Pope, everyone wishes to live as he pleases. (Walch ed.)
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Luther on polygamy: “I confess that I cannot forbid a person to marry several wives, for it does not contradict the Scripture” (De Wette II, 459).
The fruits of his so called “reformation”:
**
*“This one will not hear of Baptism, that one denies the Sacraments, another puts a world between this and the last day: some teach that Christ is not God, some say this, some say that: there are about as many sects and creeds as there are heads. No Yokel is so rude but when he has dreams and fancies, he thinks himself inspired by the Holy Ghost and must be a prophet” (M. Luther, De Wette III,61). *
*“Noblemen, townsmen, peasants, all classes understand the Evangelium better than I or St. Paul” said Luther " they are now wise and think themselves more learned than all the ministers" (M. Luther, Walch XIV, 1360). *
*“There is no smearer but whenever he has heard a sermon or can read a chapter in German, makes a doctor of himself, and crowns his ***, convincing himself that he knows everything better than all who teach him” (M. Luther, Walch V.1652). *
*“How many doctors have I made by preaching and writing” asked Luther in frustration “Now they say, Be off with you. Go off with you. Go to the devil. Thus it must be. When we preach they laugh. …when we get angry and threaten them, they mock us, snap their fingers at us and laugh in their sleeves” (M. Luther, Walch VII.2310). *
“When we have heard or learned a few things about Holy Scripture” admitted Luther “we think we are already doctors and have swallowed the Holy Ghost, feathers and all” (M. Luther, Walch V.472).
Luther: “After we understood that good works are not necessary for justification, I became much more remiss and cold in doing good… and if we could return now to the old state of things and if the doctrine of the necessity of good works to be holy could be revived, our alacrity and promptness in doing good would be different” (M. Luther Werke, XXVII, p. 443).
Luther: “The Gospel today [Luther’s Gospel of faith alone] finds adherents who are convinced that it is nothing but a doctrine that serves to fill their bellies and give free reign to all their impulses” (M. Luther, Werke, XXXII, p. 2)
“Since the downfall of Popery and the cessation’s of ex-communications and spiritual penalties the people have learned to despise the word of God. They are no longer for the churches; they have ceased to fear and honor God… I would wish, if it were possible, to leave these men without a preacher or pastor” complained Luther in utter frustration "and let them live like swine. There is no longer any fear or love of God among them. After throwing off the yoke of the Pope, everyone wishes to live as he pleases. (Walch ed.)
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RSiscoe
Guest
What Luther really believed: “There is no religion in the world that teaches this doctrine of justification [ie faith alone]: I myself, although I teach it publicly, have a great difficulty believing it privately” (Werke, XXV, p. 330).
“With how much pain and labor did I scarcely justify my conscience that I alone should proceed against the Pope, hold him for Antichrist and the bishops for his apostles. How often did my heart punish me and reproach me with this strong argument 'Art thou alone wise? Could all the others err and have erred for so long a time?” (De Wette 2-107).
Luther’s prophecy: “There will be the greatest confusion. Nobody will allow himself to be led by another man’s doctrine or authority. Everybody will be his own rabbi: hence the greatest scandals” (Lauterb. 91).
And finally his conclusion: *“If God had not closed my eyes, **and if I had foreseen these scandals, I would never have begun to preach the Gospel” (Walch, VI,920). *
Don’t those quote just make you proud?
So, if you want to follow Luther, go right ahead. But remember: “Luther and Calvin are in hell and their torments increase with each person who is damned for on of their errors”.
“With how much pain and labor did I scarcely justify my conscience that I alone should proceed against the Pope, hold him for Antichrist and the bishops for his apostles. How often did my heart punish me and reproach me with this strong argument 'Art thou alone wise? Could all the others err and have erred for so long a time?” (De Wette 2-107).
Luther’s prophecy: “There will be the greatest confusion. Nobody will allow himself to be led by another man’s doctrine or authority. Everybody will be his own rabbi: hence the greatest scandals” (Lauterb. 91).
And finally his conclusion: *“If God had not closed my eyes, **and if I had foreseen these scandals, I would never have begun to preach the Gospel” (Walch, VI,920). *
Don’t those quote just make you proud?
So, if you want to follow Luther, go right ahead. But remember: “Luther and Calvin are in hell and their torments increase with each person who is damned for on of their errors”.
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Ahimsa
Guest
All those quotes from Luther are fine and dandy. But I’m curious: do you think Luther had any valuable critiques, even if he may have went too far in other areas of his arguments?
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SusanL
Guest
What difference would there be if he had any “valuable critiques” if those quotes were enough to send someone to hell?
You know, I used to know a man who was proud of how well he could lie and get away with it. He told me that to tell a really believable lie you had to mix enough truth in there with it to establish your credibility. People would accept the lie because they saw the truthful part.
That is how Satan is so effective.
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RSiscoe
Guest
No one denies that there were abuses within the Church during Luther’s day (not nearly as bad as we have today, though). But instead of fighting against the abuses (as he should have), Luther fought against the Church, and made up a completely new religion. The Church later addressed the problems that were occurring in the Church and corrected them. But by then, Luther had already seperated himself and all of his followers from the Church.
Instead of fighting the abuses, Luther fought against the Church and the teachings that had been passed down from the time of the apostles. His initial outrage at certain abuses may have been justified, but the way he dealt with it was certainly wrong.
Also, Luther had what appears to be a combination of very bad scruples and manic depression, or “bi-polar”: In his writings you can see signs of his being way up, and then way down. I believe his scruples is what led to his new doctrine of sola fide. He had to find some way to justify his conscience (which was tormented by scruples), so he claimed that faith ALONE is all that God requires, and that our sins do not matter at all to God. I believe that sola fide was simply the way that Luther dealt with his tormented conscience.
Martin Luther: "God only obliges you to believe and to confess (the faith). In all other things He leaves you free, Lord and master to do whatever you will without any danger to your conscience; on the contrary, it is certain that, as far as He is concerned, it makes no difference whether you leave your wife, flee from your lord, or are unfaithful to every obligation. What is it to Him if you do or do not do such things? (Werke XXI p. 131) “During this life we have to sin. It is sufficient that, by the mercy of God, we know the Lamb who takes away the sins of the world. Sin will not separate us from Him, even though we were to commit a thousand murders and a thousand adulteries per day” (Franca, 9.439). “The husband may drive away his wife; God cares not. Let Vashti go and take an Esther, as did the king of Ahasuerus” (Wittenb. V, 123).
Only someone with a dead conscience would really believe that (if even them). And scruples (which we know Luther had) is the opposite of a dead conscience: it is a kind of sickness of the conscience, which has its roots in fear, that makes a person see sin everywhere. It can really torment a person. I believe Luther used his doctrine of faith alone to help him deal with his tormented conscience.
That would explain why he rejected the book of James. He clearly understood that James contradicted his new teaching. If his doctrine of faith alone (sola fide), was really based on an honest, yet incorrect, interpretation of the Bible, he never would have removed the book that contradicted it. The fact that he did remove the book of James from the Bible proves, in my opinion, that he did not base his new doctrine on the Bible, but rather attempted to use the Bible to support his new doctrine.
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Dr.Bombay
Guest
I believe he said, “Can anyone spare a bucket of water?”
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Angainor
Guest
Dr. Bombay:
I am ashamed, but I found that funny.:tsktsk:
LOL
I am ashamed, but I found that funny.:tsktsk:
R
reen12
Guest
Alright, I don’t disagree with saying that Martin
Luther had a problem with scrupulosity.
It is now widely accepted that scrupulosity is a form
of OCD = obsessive compulsive disorder. Again,
it is an illness, not a moral fault, in and of itself.
Individuals with this disorder can think that they
have committed the “sin against the Holy Spirit,”
the “unpardonable sin.” They confess and
immediatley think that they need to confess
again. But at no time do they feel relief from
the inner conviction that they have sinned and
may be “lost.” This can lead to great torment of
mind and heart. [Cardinal O’Connor preached
a sermon on scrupulostiy.]
Catholics stress “confess”…people with OCD
say “I have confessed” and I’m still tormented.
They are exhausted with confessing and can
feel that they are never in a “state of grace.”
[Of course, this can lead to an obsession over
hell, which could certainly be a “live” issue
for those so afflicted.]
Luther provided a way for such individuals
to reach out to Christ…and to achieve release
from torment =“works” theology, as he saw it.
“I have not come for the healthy, but for the sick”
can be thought of in a new way, here.
Prescinding from Luther’s flights of hyperbole…
surely you’re not saying the man seriously
recommeded sinning mightily, even if he jested
about same…hyperbole is just that-hyperbole…
Luther knew that faith was the cardinal point.
He may have jettisoned the epistle of James, but
he could not do the same with the synoptic gospels,
which counseled “works.”
I take his point to be “Be of good cheer, your
sins are forgiven you through your faith in
Jesus.”
For the scrupulous, this *emphasis *is balm and
rest to the heart.
reen12
“Inadequate, and loving it!”
Luther had a problem with scrupulosity.
It is now widely accepted that scrupulosity is a form
of OCD = obsessive compulsive disorder. Again,
it is an illness, not a moral fault, in and of itself.
Individuals with this disorder can think that they
have committed the “sin against the Holy Spirit,”
the “unpardonable sin.” They confess and
immediatley think that they need to confess
again. But at no time do they feel relief from
the inner conviction that they have sinned and
may be “lost.” This can lead to great torment of
mind and heart. [Cardinal O’Connor preached
a sermon on scrupulostiy.]
Catholics stress “confess”…people with OCD
say “I have confessed” and I’m still tormented.
They are exhausted with confessing and can
feel that they are never in a “state of grace.”
[Of course, this can lead to an obsession over
hell, which could certainly be a “live” issue
for those so afflicted.]
Luther provided a way for such individuals
to reach out to Christ…and to achieve release
from torment =“works” theology, as he saw it.
“I have not come for the healthy, but for the sick”
can be thought of in a new way, here.
Prescinding from Luther’s flights of hyperbole…
surely you’re not saying the man seriously
recommeded sinning mightily, even if he jested
about same…hyperbole is just that-hyperbole…
Luther knew that faith was the cardinal point.
He may have jettisoned the epistle of James, but
he could not do the same with the synoptic gospels,
which counseled “works.”
I take his point to be “Be of good cheer, your
sins are forgiven you through your faith in
Jesus.”
For the scrupulous, this *emphasis *is balm and
rest to the heart.
reen12
“Inadequate, and loving it!”
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