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deepertruth
Guest
Luther excommunited himself. The Church just pronounced it.
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KingTheoden
Guest
My understanding is that we are free to believe such private revelation that has been examined and declared credible. It would not shock me that Reformation leaders are in hell. Indeed, they can be in a very, very, very unfortunate state in purgatory.
When we die, we have no idea how long we have to throw ourselves on the mercy of God. What seems like an instant to an onlooker at someone dying can be hours, minutes, centuries to the dying person’s soul.
I really hope that Martin Luther (and for that matter everyone) who was in grave sin until death did repent to the Lord, and in fact was no longer in mortal sin. However, if we are blessed enough to enter the Kingdom, we can’t let ourselves be shocked if a lot of people are missing.
And that is a major reason for my personal drive to preach Christ crucified, the best I can, to people. If I get there, I sure want to see my family and friends in heaven!
*One comment about excommunication: as others wrote, it is not the Church that does it, but us. Our actions drive us away from God. I had the experience of ‘not being in communion’ with the Church I suppose when I committed a sin recently (which my Priest determined later was probably not mortal but sat on the very boundary). I refused myself the Eucharist for two days until I could confess, not out of self-righteousness, but genuine fear that I would harm the Body of Christ if I were to present myself in that state.
That bread is merely an accident (philosophical term) of what it really becomes: the mystical body of Jesus Christ. I truly began to understand this this past week. And going without it was, in a small sense, hell-like in that I had a wedge between me and God. Deafening emptiness is how I would describe it.*
A
Answersplease
Guest
It may be true that they are in hell, the Catholic Church just won’t infallibly say that they are.
Private revelations don’t have to be believed, but that is not to say that they are not true.
Even if Luther’s excommunication was lifted, that does not gaurantee that he did not go to hell.
K
kkevilus
Guest
I find it a little odd that Martin Luther is still being attacked rather than discussed. Matthew 7:1.
On his deathbed, when offered painkillers he said “My best prescription for head and heart is that God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16)
April 16, 1521 Martin Luther arrived at the Diet of Worms, convinced he would get the hearing he requested in 1517 to discuss the abuse of indulgences and his ‘95 Theses.’ He was astounded when he discovered it would not be a debate, but rather a judicial hearing to see if he wished to recant his words. In defending himself the next day, Luther said, ‘Unless I can be instructed and convinced with evidence from the Holy Scriptures or with open, clear, and distinct grounds of reasoning . . . then I cannot and will not recant, because it is neither safe nor wise to act against conscience. Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me! Amen!’ When negotiations over the next few days failed to reach any compromise, Luther was condemned.
Is there really something in his ‘Disputation of Doctor Martin Luther on the Power and Efficacy of Indulgences’ that warrants excommunication, or was the church simply covering it’s own scandals? Do you really think God in heaven accepts money for the pardon of sins, when he sent his very son to die for those sins?
Just wondering…
On his deathbed, when offered painkillers he said “My best prescription for head and heart is that God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16)
April 16, 1521 Martin Luther arrived at the Diet of Worms, convinced he would get the hearing he requested in 1517 to discuss the abuse of indulgences and his ‘95 Theses.’ He was astounded when he discovered it would not be a debate, but rather a judicial hearing to see if he wished to recant his words. In defending himself the next day, Luther said, ‘Unless I can be instructed and convinced with evidence from the Holy Scriptures or with open, clear, and distinct grounds of reasoning . . . then I cannot and will not recant, because it is neither safe nor wise to act against conscience. Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me! Amen!’ When negotiations over the next few days failed to reach any compromise, Luther was condemned.
Is there really something in his ‘Disputation of Doctor Martin Luther on the Power and Efficacy of Indulgences’ that warrants excommunication, or was the church simply covering it’s own scandals? Do you really think God in heaven accepts money for the pardon of sins, when he sent his very son to die for those sins?
Just wondering…
J
Jerusalem
Guest
For my Christian Brothers and Sisters who are not Catholic on this forum:
Excommunication is scriptural. It is explicitly stated by Our Lord and implicitly mentioned by St. Paul.
First Our Lord: (Mth 18:16-18)
"If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.
But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses.”
This next verse is pivotal – read closely (Mth 18:17):
“If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.”
Christ next states the following (Mth 18:18)
“Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
One must ask yourself what Church is Christ referring to that casts out or ‘treats as Gentile’. What Church has the authority to cast out one of its members? Who bestows
such authority? If the Church is an invisible body of believers as many Protestants believe, then how would they be cast out from something invisible? And how would you be able to recognize what they are being cast out? Without authority or a type of
authority who would pronounce the judgment that they are not listening to the Church?
Which Church is not being listened to?
As basic doctrinal Protestantism holds, the ‘sola scriptura’ or the scripture alone is the sole authority. There is no ‘Church authority’ per se since one can diverge over scriptural
interpretations. As such, there really is no authority to cast one out or to be able to claim a Church authority since the basic tenets only holds to scriptural authority. We see this many times that among different Protestant congregations a member will change Churches from one denomination or one protestant congregation to another. And since, everyone holds to only a scriptural authority a person can argue of diverge with their pastor of different theological points and not feel they are jeopardizing their soul.
Here is the important point I’m trying to make. Whatever Church Christ is referring to in
Mth 18:17 must have the authority to treat one as ‘Gentile’ or ‘Taxcollector’ – in Jewish terminology to cast out. This Church must be able to define itself as something definite and visible to be able to recognize members from non-members; otherwise there is nothing to be cast out from. Also this Church must possess a real authority give from God. Christ reiterates on the very next verse the one he stated directly to Peter.
“Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” (Mth 18:18)
Christ is reiterating what he tells Peter in Mth 16. The power to ‘loose and bind’. So we can safely state that Christ communicates to the Apostles the Church. Whatever Church
that Christ establishes must have Apostolic authority to ‘loose and bind’. If it does not, then it has no power to cast out. There is only one Church for the past 2000 years which
claims the apostolic succession of Peter. This Church unlike others claims an authority was given to her by God called ‘infallibility’. That is in her official teachings Peter will always teach the Truth about God. Here is a list of sucessors from Peter listed below:
List of Papal Sucession from the Apostles:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_popes
So one has to ask themselves upon what authority did Luther claim to found a Church – which has systematically different doctrines and beliefs than the one which has existed for 1500 years? If the Church is invisible body of believers, as to my knowledge Luther seemed to claim later on in his life, then how would he be able to cast out others when he denied the basic tenets of ‘Church Authority’ to begin with?
Now on to St. Paul and excommunication see 1 Cor 5:
(here is what he says in reference to a man who is having sexual relations with his Father’s wife in the Church in Corinth)
1 Cor 5:4-5
“In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.”
1 Cor 5:13
But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
In essence, Paul is stating that when the Church is ‘gathered together’ or praying together to cast out this man who is doing evil for the salvation of his soul. To put him away which is the same language used in the OT for casting out someone in your community.
So Paul is claiming an authority upon which to do this. Note that Paul goes to the Apostles after his conversion to receive such authority even after he is struck with blindness and has the mystical experience; his next action is to seek out the apostles.
What is true reformation of the Church?
True reformation of the Church begins with yourself. The difference between Martin Luther and many great saints is that the saints reformed the Church within. They suffered for
Christ’s mystical body the ‘Church’ and were even persecuted by her members. St. Francis is a shining example who reformed the entire Church and rebuked others by his life and preaching.
My invitation to all my Christian brothers and sisters is this:
Don’t be afraid. Come into the Catholic Church. It is a beautiful Church with perfect doctrine and flawed members. We have saintly people like Mother Teresa, JPII, Saint Franis, St. Augustine, St. Max Kolbe, St. Faustina and many great witnesses. Don’t throw out the apostles and Christ because of Judas.
God love you
Excommunication is scriptural. It is explicitly stated by Our Lord and implicitly mentioned by St. Paul.
First Our Lord: (Mth 18:16-18)
"If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.
But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses.”
This next verse is pivotal – read closely (Mth 18:17):
“If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.”
Christ next states the following (Mth 18:18)
“Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
One must ask yourself what Church is Christ referring to that casts out or ‘treats as Gentile’. What Church has the authority to cast out one of its members? Who bestows
such authority? If the Church is an invisible body of believers as many Protestants believe, then how would they be cast out from something invisible? And how would you be able to recognize what they are being cast out? Without authority or a type of
authority who would pronounce the judgment that they are not listening to the Church?
Which Church is not being listened to?
As basic doctrinal Protestantism holds, the ‘sola scriptura’ or the scripture alone is the sole authority. There is no ‘Church authority’ per se since one can diverge over scriptural
interpretations. As such, there really is no authority to cast one out or to be able to claim a Church authority since the basic tenets only holds to scriptural authority. We see this many times that among different Protestant congregations a member will change Churches from one denomination or one protestant congregation to another. And since, everyone holds to only a scriptural authority a person can argue of diverge with their pastor of different theological points and not feel they are jeopardizing their soul.
Here is the important point I’m trying to make. Whatever Church Christ is referring to in
Mth 18:17 must have the authority to treat one as ‘Gentile’ or ‘Taxcollector’ – in Jewish terminology to cast out. This Church must be able to define itself as something definite and visible to be able to recognize members from non-members; otherwise there is nothing to be cast out from. Also this Church must possess a real authority give from God. Christ reiterates on the very next verse the one he stated directly to Peter.
“Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” (Mth 18:18)
Christ is reiterating what he tells Peter in Mth 16. The power to ‘loose and bind’. So we can safely state that Christ communicates to the Apostles the Church. Whatever Church
that Christ establishes must have Apostolic authority to ‘loose and bind’. If it does not, then it has no power to cast out. There is only one Church for the past 2000 years which
claims the apostolic succession of Peter. This Church unlike others claims an authority was given to her by God called ‘infallibility’. That is in her official teachings Peter will always teach the Truth about God. Here is a list of sucessors from Peter listed below:
List of Papal Sucession from the Apostles:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_popes
So one has to ask themselves upon what authority did Luther claim to found a Church – which has systematically different doctrines and beliefs than the one which has existed for 1500 years? If the Church is invisible body of believers, as to my knowledge Luther seemed to claim later on in his life, then how would he be able to cast out others when he denied the basic tenets of ‘Church Authority’ to begin with?
Now on to St. Paul and excommunication see 1 Cor 5:
(here is what he says in reference to a man who is having sexual relations with his Father’s wife in the Church in Corinth)
1 Cor 5:4-5
“In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.”
1 Cor 5:13
But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
In essence, Paul is stating that when the Church is ‘gathered together’ or praying together to cast out this man who is doing evil for the salvation of his soul. To put him away which is the same language used in the OT for casting out someone in your community.
So Paul is claiming an authority upon which to do this. Note that Paul goes to the Apostles after his conversion to receive such authority even after he is struck with blindness and has the mystical experience; his next action is to seek out the apostles.
What is true reformation of the Church?
True reformation of the Church begins with yourself. The difference between Martin Luther and many great saints is that the saints reformed the Church within. They suffered for
Christ’s mystical body the ‘Church’ and were even persecuted by her members. St. Francis is a shining example who reformed the entire Church and rebuked others by his life and preaching.
My invitation to all my Christian brothers and sisters is this:
Don’t be afraid. Come into the Catholic Church. It is a beautiful Church with perfect doctrine and flawed members. We have saintly people like Mother Teresa, JPII, Saint Franis, St. Augustine, St. Max Kolbe, St. Faustina and many great witnesses. Don’t throw out the apostles and Christ because of Judas.
God love you
K
Karen_Maria
Guest
test
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SaintPatrick333
Guest
Christ taught that Catholicism IS the Truth. Who are you to disagree?
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inkaneer
Guest
WHOA There!!! Let’s get one thing straight here. Luther excommunicated Luther. Maybe you should research what it means to be excommunicated. It means that your teaching or beliefs are not in “Communion” with those of the church. So while the church may declare one to be outside the communion, hence ‘ex- communicated’ it is the person himself who actually does the excommunicating. Luther left the Catholic Church. That is where present day Lutherans are today. For there to be communion you got to come back. We will not compromise our beliefs to soothe over your pride because while Lutherans can compromise the truth; Catholics can’t…
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Isaiah45_9
Guest
Are you guys replying to a post from: Apr 18, '05, 6:45 pm?
And expecting an answer?
Wanna go play chess?
J
joe370
Guest
Saint Teresa of Avila referred to Lutheranism as: “that wretched sect…” She never mentioned if Luther or Calvin were in hell.
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