Martin Luther on Mary

[JonNC]

The question of the Marian dogmas comes down to ones source of dogmatic authority. For Lutherans, as with all Protestants, only those teachings which are clearly found in scripture should be part of the Church’s dogma. Where Lutherans differ is that they allow traditions to be held as private opinion which, while not found in scripture, do not contradict it. For Orthodox and Catholics, if a dogma has been universally held “always, everywhere, and by all” (the rule of St. Vincent of Lerins), as has the sanctity and assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary, then it is part of our faith.

My question for Lutherans would be - on what grounds can you confidently reject that these teachings are optional for the catholic faith?

Hey, dcointin, just a question for you, as Orthodox.
How much of an issue are the Latin marian dogmas - IC, Assumption - for Orthodoxy? To the extent that they differ from Orthodox Tradition, are they Church dividing in your view?

Jon

 

[TertiumQuid]

James,
Your (name removed by moderator)ut is always appreciated.

Jon

Thanks Jon-

At some point, I probably will be banned from here. Why it’s never happened must mean I’ve been doing something wrong.

James

 

[JPeter]

I know you must be speaking of the Assumption as one, but are you also saying that the Orthodox reject the perpetual virginity of Mary?

I mean the immaculate conception and assumption.

 

[JPeter]

The question of the Marian dogmas comes down to ones source of dogmatic authority. For Lutherans, as with all Protestants, only those teachings which are clearly found in scripture should be part of the Church’s dogma. Where Lutherans differ is that they allow traditions to be held as private opinion which, while not found in scripture, do not contradict it. For Orthodox and Catholics, if a dogma has been universally held “always, everywhere, and by all” (the rule of St. Vincent of Lerins), as has the sanctity and assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary, then it is part of our faith.

My question for Lutherans would be - on what grounds can you confidently reject that these teachings are optional for the catholic faith?

We believe that scripture contains everything necessary for salvation. As far as Tradition goes, neither Roman Catholics nor Orthodox are in agreement as to what the Tradition actually is. Roman Catholics hold to a number of views that the Orthodox have declared heretical. As far as Lutherans are concerned:

The function of holy scriptures is to serve the authenticity of the church’s living experience in safeguarding the holy Tradition from all attempts to falsify the true faith (cf. Heb. 4:12, etc.), not to undermine the authority of the church, the body of Christ.

Regarding the relation of scripture and Tradition, for centuries there seemed to have been a deep difference between Orthodox and Lutheran teaching. Orthodox hear with satisfaction the affirmation of the Lutheran theologians that the formula “sola scriptura” was always intended to point to God’s revelation, God’s saving act through Christ in the power of the Holy Spirit, and therefore to the holy Tradition of the church, as expressed in this paper, against human traditions that darken the authentic teaching in the church.

Pointing to scripture is pointing to the “euangelion” of salvation, to Christ and therefore to the holy Tradition which is the life of the church, to act as criterion of its authenticity and so to stress the church’s unity and catholicity for the joyful common praise of the triune God.

Lutheran-Orthodox dialogue:Scripture and Tradition http://www.helsinki.fi/~risaarin/lutortjointtext.html#scri
I have to say that I have often contemplated becoming Orthodox.

 

[guanophore]

It’s explicit in tradition, that’s true. For the reformers, I think it was just assumed rather than having to be a dogmatic pronouncement (by reformers I mean Lutheran). However, the apostolic witness we have through their writings do not make it a requirement for the unity of the church, and so neither should we.

Do you believe that all requirements for the unity of the Church are found in Scripture?

It seems that this point is one major one which causes many divisions in the Body. The further believers drift from the Apostolic Church, the more likely they are to jettison this element of the faith that is embraced in all Churches that were founded by Apostles.

 

[guanophore]

Thanks Jon-

At some point, I probably will be banned from here. Why it’s never happened must mean I’ve been doing something wrong.

James

Catholic answers exists for people such as yourself, and Catholics like me who have been influenced by religious traditions such that you espouse, that have drawn us away from the Apostolic faith. were it not for you, there would be no need for CAF!

People that disagree are not banned here just because they disagree. Unlike some other fora, anyone is welcome here as long as they follow the forum rules.

 

[JPeter]

Do you believe that all requirements for the unity of the Church are found in Scripture?

It seems that this point is one major one which causes many divisions in the Body. The further believers drift from the Apostolic Church, the more likely they are to jettison this element of the faith that is embraced in all Churches that were founded by Apostles.

I cannot speak for Iggy but as far as Anglicans are concerned: We believe the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments to be Inspired by the Holy Ghost as the authentic record of the revelation of God, and as conveying His saving Word to us. We believe in the holy Tradition of the Church as set forth by the ancient catholic bishops and doctors, as defined by the Seven Ecumenical Councils of the undivided Church.
We believe that the Holy Spirit gives life to and inspires and guides the Church.

I think many Lutherans understand this in a similiar way. :twocents:

As Lutherans and Orthodox we affirm that the teachings of the ecumenical councils are authoritative for our churches. The ecumenical councils maintain the integrity of the teaching of the undivided Church concerning the saving, illuminating/justifying and glorifying acts of God and reject heresies which subvert the saving work of God in Christ. Orthodox and Lutherans, however, have different histories. Lutherans have received the Nicaeno?Constantinopolitan Creed with the addition of the filioque. The Seventh Ecumenical Council, the Second Council of Nicaea in 787, which rejected iconoclasm and restored the veneration of icons in the churches, was not part of the tradition received by the Reformation. Lutherans, however, rejected the iconoclasm of the 16th century, and affirmed the distinction between adoration due to the Triune God alone and all other forms of veneration (CA 21).

Luther-Orthodox dialogue http://www.helsinki.fi/~risaarin/lutortjointtext.html#ecum

 

[dcointin]

Hey, dcointin, just a question for you, as Orthodox.
How much of an issue are the Latin marian dogmas - IC, Assumption - for Orthodoxy? To the extent that they differ from Orthodox Tradition, are they Church dividing in your view?

Jon

We believe in the perpetual virginity, assumption, and absolute sanctity of the Theotokos, so that isn’t an issue for us. Where some Orthodox disagree is with the immaculate conception if it implies a different concept of original sin. After quite a bit of discussion I’ve come to the conclusion that we Orthodox are misunderstanding what Catholics are saying, and that we’re essentially confessing the same thing.

 

[JonNC]

We believe in the perpetual virginity, assumption, and absolute sanctity of the Theotokos, so that isn’t an issue for us. Where some Orthodox disagree is with the immaculate conception if it implies a different concept of original sin. After quite a bit of discussion I’ve come to the conclusion that we Orthodox are misunderstanding what Catholics are saying, and that we’re essentially confessing the same thing.

Thanks for your response. On the Assumption, how, if at all, is the Dormition different?

Jon

 

[asd72]

… Where some Orthodox disagree is with the immaculate conception if it implies a different concept of original sin. After quite a bit of discussion I’ve come to the conclusion that we Orthodox are misunderstanding what Catholics are saying, and that we’re essentially confessing the same thing.

Would you beable to explain this in a little more detail, about the misunderstanding and actual similarities between Catholics and Orthodox on the immaculate conception. I am a new Catholic and my knowledge of the details of Orthodoxy is limited.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Its quite funny that Martin Luther’s writings could be used to defend the Catholic position.

In fact, Luther never regarded himself as anything other than a Catholic . . .

Alex

 

[dcointin]

Thanks for your response. On the Assumption, how, if at all, is the Dormition different?

Jon

This link explains the teaching much better than I could:

goarch.org/special/listen_learn_share/dormition/index_html

The only difference in our teachings is that we believed that she did in fact fall asleep in the Lord (i.e. die), while Catholics regard that as an open question.

 

[Swiss_Guy]

As a Lutheran Luther helped show me that Catholics weren’t all that bad and modern Lutherans could learn a lot from actually studying what he believed. Then one day, I realized Catholics were right.

So thanks Martin!