“This one will not hear of Baptism, and that one denies the sacrament, another puts a world between this and the last day: some teach that Christ is not God, some say this, some say that: there are as many sects and creeds as there are heads. No yokel is so rude but when he has dreams and fancies, he thinks himself inspired by the Holy Ghost and must be a prophet”(citation: De Wette III, 61. quoted in O’Hare, The Facts About Luther, 208.)
“Noblemen, townsmen, peasants, all classes understand the Evangelium better than I or St. Paul; they are now wise and think themselves more learned than all the ministers.” (**citation: **Walch XIV, 1360. quoted in O’Hare, Ibid, 209.)
As to the first quote:Does anyone know what the original date and source for these quotes by Martin Luther? I see them quoted often in books and on line, but haven’t reference seen the original source materials (i.e., one of his letters, books, speeches or sermons). Thanks in advance!
The second quote: “Noblemen, townsmen, peasants, all classes understand the Evangelium better than I or St. Paul; they are now wise and think themselves more learned than all the ministers.” (citation: Walch XIV, 1360. quoted in O’Hare, Ibid, 209.)Does anyone know what the original date and source for these quotes by Martin Luther? I see them quoted often in books and on line, but haven’t reference seen the original source materials (i.e., one of his letters, books, speeches or sermons). Thanks in advance!
I’m actually not sure if it’s a Table talk statement or not. The footnote on the bottom of the Google Books page needs to be translated (note the “*” in the title of the writing, and follow it down to the footnote). Perhaps someone here can translate it, it’s not all that long.Thank you, James, for your gracious and helpful reply.
Re: the second quotation: Why would a “Tabletalk utterance” be unreliable?
It is true that during the history of the Tabletalk, there have been instances in which it was “cleaned up” by zealous defenders. On the other hand, the version now available to English readers, contained in LW 54 is very reliable, and is based on extensive documentary evidence. They made sure to include controversial material.Some versions of the publication have been stripped and censored of the mans more vulgar words by his supporters who did not want their audience to know just how vile and vulgar the man really was. A lot of the other quotes came right out of his own speeches or letters etc. and can be taken as more verifiable since they are direct writings.
Previous to the quote, Luther says something like, “Denmark will now be punished, including Venice, the Frankish nobility also been punished.” The punishment appears to be for the people despising any authorities who have knowledge of the scriptures.Noblemen, townsmen, peasants, all classes understand the Evangelium better than I or St. Paul; they are now wise and think themselves more learned than all the ministers." (citation: Walch XIV, 1360. quoted in O’Hare, Ibid, 209.)
It’s Sunday, so I’ll let dead dogs lie and not quote other of his period Catholic critics who used the man’s own vernacular to more poignantly describe a Heuchler so impudent to actually boast of his ordering the murder of thousands of his peasant supporters. I would like to find a period quote as well to express the popular feelings of the peasants who suspected that Luther would sell them out to the nobles – especially after Luther confirmed it in his quick acceptance of the Black Cloister[sup]1[/sup] (his prior Catholic Augustinian monastery in Wittenberg taken over by the nobles as part of Luther’s “reformation”). It was given to him as a wedding gift from the nobility ( John Frederick) for doing his part in the revolution. Luther quickly made it his personal manor home where he raised children with his new wife (ex-nun Katie).…
As to Luther being “vile and vulgar” as proved by the Table talk, I’d offer the opinion of one of Luther’s most hostile Catholic critics, Hartmann Grisar. He held that Luther was “improper rather than obscene, coarse rather than lascivious.” Commenting on the Table talk, Grisar states:
“We may peruse many pages of the notes without meeting anything in the least offensive but much that is both fine and attractive.… Much of what was said was true, witty, and not seldom quite edifying.”
James Swan
I probably won’t get involved in such a discussion as to Luther’s character over here anyway. I know many Catholics (and Protestants) have painted a scathing picture of Luther. Others have not.It’s Sunday, so I’ll let dead dogs lie and not quote other of his period Catholic critics who used the man’s own vernacular to more poignantly describe
.I probably won’t get involved in such a discussion as to Luther’s character over here anyway. I know many Catholics (and Protestants) have painted a scathing picture of Luther. Others have not.
Because I don’t have any desire to dialog with someone who states, “Thanks Martin Luther, you king of idiots!”.Why not James? Matthew 7:16 “By their fruit you will know them”. Let’s talk very seriously about his character and everything he said. After all, he’s the figurehead of quite a few of the 33,000 + non-Catholic denominations. It’s very important that he should stand up under intense scrutiny.
I think it would be nearer the truth to say you’re incapable of dialogue on this issue. But, I’ll happily leave it at that.Because I don’t have any desire to dialog with someone who states, “Thanks Martin Luther, you king of idiots!”.
Paul,I think it would be nearer the truth to say you’re incapable of dialogue on this issue. But, I’ll happily leave it at that.