Martin Luther: Similar to Judas?

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JonNC said:
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AugustTherese:
Sure, “it is a definition of free will”, but it is not the full definition of free will. You make it sound like the Catholic Church cannot detect heresy and therefore cannot determine what any ecclesial community confesses to believe. Being free of error gives Her all the more lucid perspective of false teachings and how they do not come from Our Bless Lord. If you, the Lutheran Confessions, and/or anyone else confesses that we cannot by the prompting of actual grace choose to accept God to justify us, then the “free will” you claim to believe isn’t holistically free, but halfway enslaved to God forcing justification on us. If you cannot, by actual grace, choose to allow God to justify you, then how come now all men are justified considered God wants all men to be saved?
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It is quite the full definition for Lutherans. I’m not making any statement about what the CC can or cannot detect. That’s not to say I don’t think the CC has errors. It does. I think where we have a difference is you want to define for Lutherans what they believe, and I have no interest in defining for Catholics (or Lutherans now that I am not one) what they believe.
I have been on this forum for a long time. I have benefited greatly from hearing what Catholics tell me their beliefs are. I have no interest in telling them what they believe. I have also had Catholics who with charity and courtesy accept what Lutherans and others believe, then proceed to discuss the differences in beliefs. I have also experienced Catholics (and others) intend to tell others what they believe. The latter do nothing to advance dialogue.
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Sure, fair enough.

If you cannot, by actual grace, choose to allow God to justify you, then how come not all men are justified considered God wants all men to be saved?
 
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AugustTherese said:
Sure, fair enough.

If you cannot, by actual grace, choose to allow God to justify you, then how come not all men are justified considered God wants all men to be saved?
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Now you are using different language. When I was Lutheran, I always spoke about receiving grace, as we do when we are baptized. It is in that beginning of faith that the Holy Spirit begins to move one’s heart. This is fully the Spirit’s action in us, as opposed to us reaching out to God.
The Spirit works first through baptism, the word, and the sacraments.
 
JonNC said:
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AugustTherese:
Sure, fair enough.

If you cannot, by actual grace, choose to allow God to justify you, then how come not all men are justified considered God wants all men to be saved?
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Now you are using different language. When I was Lutheran, I always spoke about receiving grace, as we do when we are baptized. It is in that beginning of faith that the Holy Spirit begins to move one’s heart. This is fully the Spirit’s action in us, as opposed to us reaching out to God.
The Spirit works first through baptism, the word, and the sacraments.
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Does the Holy Spirit baptize us against our will? Does He justify us against our will? Does He save us without our consent?
 
AugustTherese said:
Does the Holy Spirit baptize us against our will? Does He justify us against our will? Does He save us without our consent?
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He baptizes us with our parents’ consent.
And no, He doesn’t justify us or save us against our will because we have FREE WILL to reject grace!
 
JonNC said:
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AugustTherese:
Does the Holy Spirit baptize us against our will? Does He justify us against our will? Does He save us without our consent?
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He baptizes us with our parents’ consent.
And no, He doesn’t justify us or save us against our will because we have FREE WILL to reject grace!
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Only under the age of accountability does He baptize at the discretion a sponsor’s consent. There are many souls at the age of reason who, by the prompting of actual grace, choose to allow the Holy Spirit to regenerate and recreate them through Holy Baptism.

If we do not have the freedom to allow the Holy Spirit to justify us, then our will is not free.
 
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AugustTherese said:
Only under the age of accountability does He baptize at the discretion a sponsor’s consent. There are many souls at the age of reason who, by the prompting of actual grace, choose to allow the Holy Spirit to regenerate and recreate them through Holy Baptism.

If we do not have the freedom to allow the Holy Spirit to justify us, then our will is not free.
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And that prompting disposes us to receive His grace without rejecting it. It is by His grace, not our reaching out to Him.
 
JonNC said:
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AugustTherese:
Only under the age of accountability does He baptize at the discretion a sponsor’s consent. There are many souls at the age of reason who, by the prompting of actual grace, choose to allow the Holy Spirit to regenerate and recreate them through Holy Baptism.

If we do not have the freedom to allow the Holy Spirit to justify us, then our will is not free.
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And that prompting disposes us to receive His grace without rejecting it. It is by His grace, not our reaching out to Him.
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Yes, that is the Catholic teaching on free will.
 
AugustTherese said:
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JonNC:
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AugustTherese:
Only under the age of accountability does He baptize at the discretion a sponsor’s consent. There are many souls at the age of reason who, by the prompting of actual grace, choose to allow the Holy Spirit to regenerate and recreate them through Holy Baptism.

If we do not have the freedom to allow the Holy Spirit to justify us, then our will is not free.
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And that prompting disposes us to receive His grace without rejecting it. It is by His grace, not our reaching out to Him.
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Yes, that is the Catholic teaching on free will.
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And the Lutheran:

Free Will.
The Scriptural doctrine of the freedom of the human will is closely connected with the doctrine of original sin (see Sin, Original). The doctrine of the freedom of the human will after the fall* of man must be studied from the viewpoint of original sin. Scripture emphatically declares that man, also after the fall, continues to be a responsible moral agent, who in earthly matters, to some extent, may exercise freedom of will; but it asserts that “natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, … neither can he know them” (1 Co 2:14); that man, by nature, is “dead in trespasses and sins” (Eph 2:1); that “the carnal mind is enmity against God” (Ro 8:7); and that “no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost” (1 Co 12:3). Accordingly, Scripture denies to man after the fall and before conversion* freedom of will in spiritual matters, and asserts that conversion is accomplished entirely through the Holy Ghost by the Gospel. God “hath saved us, … not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace” (2 Ti 1:9); “Turn Thou me, and I shall be turned” (Jer. 31:18).
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http://cyclopedia.lcms.org/display.asp?t1=f&word=FREEWILL
 
May I point out that you guys have wandered off the topic? You might want to do a separate more focused thread.

Sorry if I am in error here.
 
There is a mistaken belief among many Catholics - a belief I myself held until a few years ago, I’m ashamed to admit - that Protestantism is insincere. I attribute this mostly to an incomplete understanding of history.

In the English Speaking world, the most well-known part of the Protestant Reformation was the founding of the Church of England. Even people who don’t know about the Thirty Years Wars know about this, which is that the lecherous, gluttonous, alcoholic, and adulterous Henry VIII broke away from the Catholic Church because he wanted to divorce his wife so as to marry someone more fertile (and so he could turn the church into a branch of the government that would never criticize or challenge him). This, combined with the fact that the Protestant Reformers decided not to include the more restrictive requirements for becoming a church leader (the vow of celibacy, the vow of poverty, etc) and a misunderstanding of the “Faith Alone Leads to Salvation” belief (it doesn’t mean that someone who never does Good Works can still be saved, it just means that Good Works are an exercise of Faith rather than something separate) can make it seem as though the Protestantism is insincere and only broke away from Catholicism for worldly reasons.

In truth, looking closer shows that people like Henry VIII were an exception rather than a norm. Most Protestants were and still are sincere about their beliefs and see themselves as saving Christianity, not as betraying it. Martin Luther himself had to go into hiding several times and risked public execution by standing by his ideas. Additionally there is the fact that the Catholic Church at the time of the Reformation was horribly corrupt, with simony and broken vows being very common. Even the Church itself admitted this and, in the Council of Trent and the Counter-Reformation, worked hard to correct these problems.

That’s why the most recent Popes have all tried to be friendly with the leaders of Protestant Churches: at the end of the day we’re all Christian and we need to stick together.
 
What if you wrote a focused proposition for the thread title and started a new thread? Many threads fail because they are too wide or too vague. 🙂
 
PluniaZ said:
Luther did want schism. It was his main goal.
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Actually your own quote confirms he wanted reformation but saw it wasn’t in the cards.

Luther nailed his list in 1517 and I think the Council of Trent wasn’t convened until 1545, many years later.
 
Indeed. Trent didn’t even proclaim its first anathemas until well after Luther’s death.
 
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