Martin Luther

[Anna_Scott]

Again, I’m not implying what Luther wrote wasn’t bad nor antisemitic. As for the question of why the Jews would convert to a religion that persecuted them…they weren’t persecuted by Christianity, they were persecuted by men who claimed to be Christians.

I do agree the Jews were persecuted by those who claimed to be Christian.

However, if you are one of the persecuted, it might not be so easy to separate who’s who:

www.holocaustchronicle.org
The Holocaust Chronicle ©2002 Publications International, Ltd.

Page 42: “Christian Antisemitism: Nazi antisemitic propaganda drew inspiration from a 2000-year, anti-Jewish tradition that had been cultivated by Christian churches. The stereotyped and wholly false image of Jews as the “killers of Christ” persisted through the centuries. . .”

"Sixteenth-century Protestant reformer Martin Luther was a virulent antisemite in his later years. Angered by the Jews’ refusal to convert, he unleashed the scathing tract On the Jews and Their Lies, depicting them as Christ killers and criminals bent on ruling the world. Luther advocated burning synagogues, schools, and homes, and driving Jews “like mad dogs out of the land.” The Nazis prominently displayed this treatise at Party rallies. ."

Who were stoked up by… church leaders.

Good point. But, not all church leaders were stoking the antisemitic issue. There were both good and bad.

The sins of others does not hide the sins of others - or, to put it more plainly, you can’t forgive a sin because others sin.

People are harsh on Luther because he wrote harsh words. When you write harsh words, you will become the subject of criticism.

I agree! Sin is not relative to what others are doing or to a particular point in history. Sin is sin, period. Antisemitism is sin, no matter how you frame it.

It’s all right

I actually feel sorry for Luther because he was clearly, as shown in historical records, not in the right frame of mind at the time. He was suffering from practically every disease known to man at the time, and his writings near the end of his life show a man whose mind was slipping. I’m not excusing what he wrote. . .

I feel sorry for all those who were the object of Luther’s hatred. I feel sorry for the fact that Luther led many into antisemitism. I feel sorry that Hitler used Luther as one of his excuses for persecuting the Jews.

www.holocaustchronicle.org
The Holocaust Chronicle ©2002 Publications International, Ltd.

Page 89, “1935: The German government permits the publication of Martin Luther’s On the Jews and Their Lies, in which Luther advocates a program to arrest Jews, expropriate them, force them into the kind of labor the government determines, and, finally, to exile or murder them.”

Page 124, “1938:** Adolf Hitler** tells Minister of Justice Hans Frank that he has come to fulfill the curse imposed by the Jews themselves in the New Testament: “His [Jesus’s] blood be upon us and upon our children.” Hitler, born and raised as a Roman Catholic, observes that had Martin Luther, the founder of Protestantism, been fully aware of the Jewish threat, he would not have criticized Catholicism; instead, he would have put all of his energy into attacking the Jews.”

. . . . I mean, like him or not, he is someone that we all look to in history of christian beliefs. He was not considered a bad guy because he gave a bad homily, (read the threads about that stuff in liturgy and scaraments, and you will be blown away)
He was not one that by today’s standards you would dislike in terms of what kind of a service he would have for the most part? Correct?

I just feel for this man, I lament the struggle he went through especially when I read about people in this day and age. . .

Luther did bring about change, but then he also contributed to evil in a profound way. The last few years of his life were tainted with hateful antisemitism. I’m not sure how to reconcile the good with the bad.

I know that I have posted the most unfavorable writings of Martin Luther, and the tragic way in which his writings were used after his death.

What I want to express is, that in my studies of Judaism and Christianity; I have never really been able to come to terms with the violence in Christian history. I really do not know how to make sense of this. This is probably why I have posted so much about Luther’s antisemitism.

.

Peter J: I think you misunderstood my post. I was not making a statement about Catholics. I was talking about Chisendom as a whole.

Anna

 

[Peter_J]

Peter J: I think you misunderstood my post. I was not making a statement about Catholics. I was talking about Chrisendom as a whole.

Anna

I wasn’t trying to suggest that you were singling out Catholics.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Byzatine_Wolf: thanks for the clarification.

gurneyhalleck1: I appreciate your comments. However, I’m not sure we can assume that Luther only saw the Jews as “rebels from the truth.” There is so much hatred in his writing. I think no one can really know the intentions of Luther’s heart, except Luther. We do, however, have his written word.

Byzantine_Wolf: This was not the case with Luther. His was vehemently antisemitic. But, even to say “Jews foolishly do not accept Christ,” is still a statement of judgment.

Why would the Jews want to convert to a religion that persecuted and slaughtered their people for so long?

Gottle of Geer: I agree that there was plenty of “Anti-Judaism & Judaeophobia” in the centuries leading up to Luther’s day.

You misunderstand me. My intention is not to “single Luther out.” This Thread is entitled Martin Luther. I am offering information on Martin Luther, because I think if one is going to write about his life, one should consider the whole picture.

I do agree that it would absolutely be important to include the antisemitic views of Luther’s contemporaries, and the centuries leading up to his day. I have never said he was the only one espousing antisemitism.

In my studies of the history of Judaism and Christianity, I have read a number of Jewish authors. I think it is important to read the Jewish perspective, since they have endured centuries of persecution at the hands of those who called themselves Christian, and other religions as well.

I think my writing here is a way of expressing an issue that is deeply disturbing to me. When I look back over history, I can see why so few Jews converted to Christianity.

Again, why would they want to convert to a religion that persecuted and slaughtered their people for centuries?

I have Jewish friends and we have had many long discussions. I am actually amazed at their ability to forgive the past. Their devotion to God surpasses that of many Christians I know. God is woven into every part of their lives.

So, again, let me say that it is not my intention to “single out” Luther. I know he had plenty of company, and centuries of antisemitism to draw from.

I know that I have posted the most unfavorable writings of Martin Luther, and the tragic way in which his writings were used after his death.

What I want to express is, that in my studies of Judaism and Christianity; I have never really been able to come to terms with the violence in Christian history. I really do not know how to make sense of this. This is probably why I have posted so much about Luther’s antisemitism.

Yet, I do know that not all Christians persecuted and slaughtered.

My Jewish friends, of whom I spoke in an earlier post, have such a heart of forgiveness. The husband has been sending contributions to help support a group of Catholic Nuns who helped Jews escape during the Holocaust. The Nuns retired here in the U.S. and only a few are still living today-but this kind Jewish man is still sending checks.

So, I really did not mean to highjack this Thread. It’s just that Luther’s writings really strike a nerve with me.

Anna

1. While the title reads: Martin Luther, this was not intended as a ML bashing party. It was intended to help a writer find **accurate ** information on ML to write an historical Fiction book.

To me it looks as tho Catholics began a rally of "Hooray! Another chance to bash ML and present a one-sided version.

As I stated before an historical fiction book is supposed to be accurate to history. It is not a book sharing biased personal views. As Marysgirls investigate and researches history, she will be ethically obligated to present the facts accurately. I saw no one mention ML’s favorable writings toward the Jews. Only the info certain Catholics want to be portrayed about him.

This thread is about writing a book and ML just happens to be the specific subject of the book.

Ginger

Ginger: I don’t think you can blame the Catholic Forum Members for bashing Martin Luther.

I am a Protestant Christian, and I have probably written the most about Luther’s shortcomings.

I think you are right in saying, “This thread is about writing a book and ML just happens to be the specific subject of the book.”

I think if a person is going to write a book about Martin Luther, they should include both the good and the bad.

I know that Martin Luther had plenty of company, when it comes to antisemitism. Unfortunately, he also had centuries of antisemitism to draw from. But that does not excuse his actions. None of us can use the views of our day to justify sin; though we often try.

I just can’t come to terms with Luther’s antisemitism. It haunts me as a Protestant Christian.

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

I wasn’t trying to suggest that you were singling out Catholics.

Oh, well. . .that’s good. I misunderstood you.

It was your quote that threw me:

“Telling Catholics that they aren’t perfect makes as much sense as telling fish they’re wet. We know already. Move on.”

• Fr. Philip Neri Powell, O.P., Ph.D., Church is not Wal-Mart (UPDATED).

I’m sorry.

Anna

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

POPE PAUL IV, “Cum Nibis Absurdum” “Since it is completely senseless …”] (July 14, 1555)

As an Orthodox, that is irrelevant to my own personal opinion, given that it came 500 years after the Schism And as someone who believes in Church Infallibility and not Papal Infallibility, I would argue again that the opinions of one church official do not constitute the opinion of the entire Church. However, I will allow the Roman Catholics apologists on this forum to deal with that. I will say, however, if you have chosen to move on from Saint John Chrysostom, I can only assume you have nothing left to talk about him.

And you think this is a realistic view???

Yes I do. If you can present to me argumentation as to how Luther’s writings weren’t antisemitic, I welcome them.

While the title reads: Martin Luther, this was not intended as a ML bashing party. It was intended to help a writer find **accurate ** information on ML to write an historical Fiction book.

To me it looks as tho Catholics began a rally of “Hooray! Another chance to bash ML and present a one-sided version”…

As I stated before an historical fiction book is supposed to be accurate to history. It is not a book sharing biased personal views. As Marysgirls investigate and researches history, she will be ethically obligated to present the facts accurately. I saw no one mention ML’s favorable writings toward the Jews. Only the info certain Catholics want to be portrayed about him.

Luther’s antisemitic writings came much after his pro-Jewish writings, and I would argue even his “pro-Jewish” writings would still be found unfavorable to you (given how you reacted to Saint John Chrysostom).

It sounds like you are painting a bitter picture of events, and I agree some might take it to a certain extreme and leave things out. Yet as Anna Scott said, if you are going to write about a person’s life, or you are going to go into their personality and what they were, then you have to understand the good and bad parts of their personality. While paying attention only to the negative aspects may be seen as bashing a person, focusing only on the good aspects of a person will only be seen as sugar-coating.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

I do agree the Jews were persecuted by those who claimed to be Christian.

However, if you are one of the persecuted, it might not be so easy to separate who’s who…

I heartily agree. Hate is a powerful thing. I also believe, however, we will be held accountable for how we respond to that hate which builds up inside us. Christians, after all, are commanded to love even those leaders who persecute and kill you.

I feel sorry for all those who were the object of Luther’s hatred. I feel sorry for the fact that Luther led many into antisemitism. I feel sorry that Hitler used Luther as one of his excuses for persecuting the Jews.

Again, I agree.

 

[Anna_Scott]

**Ginger: **I don’t think you can blame the Catholic Forum Members for bashing Martin Luther.

I am a Protestant Christian, and I have probably written the most about Luther’s shortcomings.

I think you are right in saying, “This thread is about writing a book and ML just happens to be the specific subject of the book.”

I think if a person is going to write a book about Martin Luther, they should include both the good and the bad.

I know that Martin Luther had plenty of company, when it comes to antisemitism. Unfortunately, he also had centuries of antisemitism to draw from. But that does not excuse his actions. None of us can use the views of our day to justify sin; though we often try.

I just can’t come to terms with Luther’s antisemitism. It haunts me as a Protestant Christian.

Anna

 

[JonNC]

Anna, why does it haunt you? Luther was a man, and a product of his time, and what he wrote was wrong. I’m not excusing it, just understanding it.
George Washington owned slaves. He was a man, and a product of his time, and owning slaves was wrong. Not excusing it, just understanding it.

Luther’s antijudaism near the end of his life does not effect what I as a Lutheran believe, and it certainly shouldn’t matter if you’re a non-Lutheran. It is not hinted at in anyway in our confessions. It is not what Lutherans believe. I’m not haunted by it. Johan Eck, the Catholic antagonist of Luther’s, wrote horribly antijewish things, as well. I don’t think Catholics should be haunted by that for one second.

We all know that bigotry is wrong. I suspect that were Luther and Eck alive today, neither would hold to the values of bigotry.

Jon

 

[Anna_Scott]

Anna, why does it haunt you? Luther was a man, and a product of his time, and what he wrote was wrong. I’m not excusing it, just understanding it.
George Washington owned slaves. He was a man, and a product of his time, and owning slaves was wrong. Not excusing it, just understanding it.

Luther’s antijudaism near the end of his life does not effect what I as a Lutheran believe, and it certainly shouldn’t matter if you’re a non-Lutheran. It is not hinted at in anyway in our confessions. It is not what Lutherans believe. I’m not haunted by it. Johan Eck, the Catholic antagonist of Luther’s, wrote horribly antijewish things, as well. I don’t think Catholics should be haunted by that for one second.

We all know that bigotry is wrong. I suspect that were Luther and Eck alive today, neither would hold to the values of bigotry.

Jon

I appreciate your kind response.

As to why Martin Luther’s antisemitism haunts me: I think it is a matter of knowing the origins of the Protestant faith are rooted in a “Reformer” who wrote such terrible things about the Jewish people. I see this as a spiritual issue for all Protestants.

**The Jews are God’s chosen people; and God said He will bless those who bless Israel and curse those who curse Israel. **

I don’t want to reap a curse from God, because the author of the Protestant Movement cursed the Jewish people in just about every way possible. And it isn’t just Luther. Christian antisemitism goes back-- probably 2000 years.

**I think Christians forget that we are heirs together with Israel. We share in God’s promise to Israel. We are the Gentiles who have been grafted in through Christ. **

I know this has taken us way off course for this Thread, but you did ask why I feel haunted. It runs deep, and I do not know how to come to terms with it.

**
Deuteronomy 7:6 (ESV):**
6"For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.

Genesis 12:2-3 (ESV):
2 And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. 3 I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."

Romans 11:25-32 (ESV):
25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,

"The Deliverer will come from Zion,

he will banish ungodliness from Jacob";
27"and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."

28As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. 32For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

Romans 4:16-17 (ESV):
16That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist.

Galatians 3:28-29 (ESV):
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I appreciate your kind response.

As to why Martin Luther’s antisemitism haunts me: I think it is a matter of knowing the origins of the Protestant faith are rooted in a “Reformer” who wrote such terrible things about the Jewish people. I see this as a spiritual issue for all Protestants.

**The Jews are God’s chosen people; and God said He will bless those who bless Israel and curse those who curse Israel. **

I don’t want to reap a curse from God, because the author of the Protestant Movement cursed the Jewish people in just about every way possible. And it isn’t just Luther. Christian antisemitism goes back-- probably 2000 years.

**I think Christians forget that we are heirs together with Israel. We share in God’s promise to Israel. We are the Gentiles who have been grafted in through Christ. **

I know this has taken us way off course for this Thread, but you did ask why I feel haunted. It runs deep, and I do not know how to come to terms with it.

Might I suggest a way ? Don’t look at Luther - look at the God who raised Luther up to remind the Church of His free grace. If Luther is of any importance, it is not because of his sins - that is something common to every single one of us; what makes that particular man important, is what God did through Him, & his response. Antisemitism is not what is distinctive about the Reformation, nor is any other form of violence. What makes the Reformation is its evangelical protest - not these other things. It can’t be defined & understood by concentration on the bad features in it, otherwise every Jew-hater & thug in Christian history would count as a Protestant: which is absurd. Whatever is good in the Reformation, is, by definition, from God: therefore, not from man.​

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

As to why Martin Luther’s antisemitism haunts me: I think it is a matter of knowing the origins of the Protestant faith are rooted in a “Reformer” who wrote such terrible things about the Jewish people. I see this as a spiritual issue for all Protestants.

**The Jews are God’s chosen people; and God said He will bless those who bless Israel and curse those who curse Israel. **

I don’t want to reap a curse from God, because the author of the Protestant Movement cursed the Jewish people in just about every way possible. And it isn’t just Luther. Christian antisemitism goes back-- probably 2000 years.

**I think Christians forget that we are heirs together with Israel. We share in God’s promise to Israel. We are the Gentiles who have been grafted in through Christ. **

I know this has taken us way off course for this Thread, but you did ask why I feel haunted. It runs deep, and I do not know how to come to terms with it.

I think Martin Luther, even before his antisemitic comments, would disagree with some of your beliefs regarding the Jews and Israel. Before there existed the state of Israel and it became popular in the Evangelical movement to support Israel for theological rather than secular reasons, Jews used many Old Testament passages, most likely including the ones you just quoted, to denounce Christianity as being authentic.

I have studied the chief passages of Scripture, that constitute the grounds upon which the Jews argue against us; as where God said to Abraham: “I will make my covenant between me and thee, and with thy seed after thee, in their generations, for an everlasting covenant,” etc. Here the Jews brag, as the papists do upon the passage: “Thou art Peter.” [Martin Luther, *Table Talk, No. 810]

Times have changed now, of course, with the advent of the state of Israel, postmodernism and what I call semi-Marcionism, and therefore what Martin Luther dealt with appears more legit.

 

[Peter_J]

Oh, well. . .that’s good. I misunderstood you.

It was your quote that threw me:

“Telling Catholics that they aren’t perfect makes as much sense as telling fish they’re wet. We know already. Move on.”

• Fr. Philip Neri Powell, O.P., Ph.D., Church is not Wal-Mart (UPDATED).

I’m sorry.

Anna

Is all this your way of saying “no comment”?

 

[Peter_J]

Oh, well. . .that’s good. I misunderstood you.

It was your quote that threw me:

“Telling Catholics that they aren’t perfect makes as much sense as telling fish they’re wet. We know already. Move on.”

• Fr. Philip Neri Powell, O.P., Ph.D., Church is not Wal-Mart (UPDATED).

I’m sorry.

Anna

P.S. If you don’t think that quote is relevant to the discussion, then I have no problem with that. I’m not try to forcibly change the direction of the conversation.

Personally, though, I think that the quote – or more precisely the underlying attitude expressed in the quote – is very relevant to this discussion, not to mention pretty troubling.

 

[Anna_Scott]

The following has been quoted and praised by a number of different posters on CAF. In terms of this thread, I’d put it in the “miscellaneous” category:

“Telling Catholics that they aren’t perfect makes as much sense as telling fish they’re wet. We know already. Move on.”

• Fr. Philip Neri Powell, O.P., Ph.D., Church is not Wal-Mart (UPDATED).

Is all this your way of saying “no comment”?

P.S. If you don’t think that quote is relevant to the discussion, then I have no problem with that. I’m not try to forcibly change the direction of the conversation.

Personally, though, I think that the quote – or more precisely the underlying attitude expressed in the quote – is very relevant to this discussion, not to mention pretty troubling.

PeterJ: I think we are on different wave links or something. I really was not making any comment regarding your quote, or whether or not it is relevant to the discussion.

When you first posted it, I thought that you thought that I was singling out Catholics, which I was not. That’s all there was to it.

I guess I totally missed what you were trying to say. I’m really sorry about the misunderstanding.

“Telling Catholics that they aren’t perfect makes as much sense as telling fish they’re wet. We know already. Move on.”

• Fr. Philip Neri Powell, O.P., Ph.D., Church is not Wal-Mart (UPDATED).

 

[StrawberryJam]

I am not seeing a demand of perfection from lay people from anyone here.

 

[Anna_Scott]

I appreciate your kind response.

As to why Martin Luther’s antisemitism haunts me: I think it is a matter of knowing the origins of the Protestant faith are rooted in a “Reformer” who wrote such terrible things about the Jewish people. I see this as a spiritual issue for all Protestants.

**The Jews are God’s chosen people; and God said He will bless those who bless Israel and curse those who curse Israel. **

I don’t want to reap a curse from God, because the author of the Protestant Movement cursed the Jewish people in just about every way possible. And it isn’t just Luther. Christian antisemitism goes back-- probably 2000 years.

**I think Christians forget that we are heirs together with Israel. We share in God’s promise to Israel. We are the Gentiles who have been grafted in through Christ. **

I know this has taken us way off course for this Thread, but you did ask why I feel haunted. It runs deep, and I do not know how to come to terms with it.

I think Martin Luther, even before his antisemitic comments, would disagree with some of your beliefs regarding the Jews and Israel. Before there existed the state of Israel and it became popular in the Evangelical movement to support Israel for theological rather than secular reasons, Jews used many Old Testament passages, most likely including the ones you just quoted, to denounce Christianity as being authentic.

I have studied the chief passages of Scripture, that constitute the grounds upon which the Jews argue against us; as where God said to Abraham: “I will make my covenant between me and thee, and with thy seed after thee, in their generations, for an everlasting covenant,” etc. Here the Jews brag, as the papists do upon the passage: “Thou art Peter.” [Martin Luther, *Table Talk

, No. 810]

Times have changed now, of course, with the advent of the state of Israel, postmodernism and what I call semi-Marcionism, and therefore what Martin Luther dealt with appears more legit.

First of all, I’m not part of the Evangelical Movement. And I am not trying to use Scripture to disprove Christianity.

It is clear that you disagree with me. If you think my beliefs about our relationship to the Jewish people are wrong, then please take each of the following passages and tell me how you interpret them. That would help me to understand your viewpoint. I removed the Old Testament Scriptures to make it easier. So, you only have three passages on which to comment.

Romans 11:25-32 (ESV):
25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
27"and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."

28As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. 32For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

Romans 4:16-17 (ESV):
16That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist.
**
Galatians 3:28-29 (ESV):**
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.

 

[StrawberryJam]

The passage in Galatians,

and if you are in Christ… Or close to that?

How are Jews In Christ?

The same as those who never heard of Him?

 

[Peter_J]

PeterJ: I think we are on different wave links or something. I really was not making any comment regarding your quote, or whether or not it is relevant to the discussion.

When you first posted it, I thought that you thought that I was singling out Catholics, which I was not. That’s all there was to it.

I guess I totally missed what you were trying to say. I’m really sorry about the misunderstanding.

“Telling Catholics that they aren’t perfect makes as much sense as telling fish they’re wet. We know already. Move on.”

• Fr. Philip Neri Powell, O.P., Ph.D., Church is not Wal-Mart (UPDATED).

Huh?

I really have no idea why you felt you needed to apologize to me, or why you made any of the comments in the above post.

It’s pretty simple: I quoted something that I think is relevant to this discussion. If you want to comment on it, do. If you don’t want to comment, don’t. (Just like anybody else here can comment or not comment, as they choose.)

 

[Anna_Scott]

The passage in Galatians,

and if you are in Christ… Or close to that?

How are Jews In Christ?

The same as those who never heard of Him?

Galatians 3:28-29 (ESV):
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.

God promised the salvation of the Jews. This is found in both the O.T. and N.T.

We, the Gentile Christians, become Abraham’s offspring, and heirs according to the Promise. God’s gifts and calling to the Jewish people are irrevocable. God’s promise to Abraham is irrevocable.

Romans 11:28-32 (ESV):
28As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. 32For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

We are going way off topic here. Our relationship to the Jewish people would take a Thread of its own. Remember, Christ Himself was a Jewish Rabbi.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Part (1/2)

First of all, I’m not part of the Evangelical Movement. And I am not trying to use Scripture to disprove Christianity.

I never said you specifically were.

It is clear that you disagree with me. If you think my beliefs about our relationship to the Jewish people are wrong, then please take each of the following passages and tell me how you interpret them.

One major problem right off the bat that the reason it is wrong is because the new Israel, under the new covenant, is the Church.

“'Therefore, saith the Lord, I will raise up to Israel and to Judah the seed of men and the seed of beasts.’ [Jer 31:27] And by Isaiah He speaks thus concerning another Israel: ‘In that day shall there be a third Israel among the Assyrians and the Egyptians, blessed in the land which the Lord of Sabaoth hath blessed, saying, blessed shall my people in Egypt and in Assyria be, and Israel mine inheritance.’ [Isa 19:24] Since then God blesses this people, and calls them Israel, and declares them to be His inheritance, how is it that you repent not of the deception you practice on yourselves, as if you alone were the Israel, and of execrating the people whom God has blessed? For when He speaks to Jerusalem and its environs, He thus added: ‘And I will beget men upon you, even my people Israel; and they shall inherit you, and you shall be a possession for them; and you shall be no longer bereaved of them’ [Eze 36:12]…so we from Christ, who begat us unto God, like Jacob, and Israel, and Judah, and Joseph, and David, are called and are the true sons of God, and keep the commandments of Christ.” [Justin Martyr, *Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter 123]

I removed the Old Testament Scriptures to make it easier.

That would be good, because they would be, in many ways, irrelevant. Remember that the word “testament” means “covenant,” and refers to the two different covenants God had with mankind.

Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah - not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. [Jeremiah 31:31-33; emphasis mine]

In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. [Hebrews 8:13]

Now in reference to the passages you supplied:

Romans 11:25-32 (ESV)

And what is the full context of what Paul is speaking of? Look what came before:

I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, “LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. [Romans 11:1-5]

Of course, Paul was not a religious Jew, but an ethnic Jew, as were most Jews at that time period before our definition of “religion” became so vague. When Paul speaks of a remnant he refers to those Jews who have believed, just as there were Jews during Elijah’s time who remained faithful to their God and did not bow to idols. I say ethnic Jews rather than Jews by religion because according to Paul’s theology, everyone is dead in the Law, and the Jews only believe in the Law. Paul states that faith in Christ goes beyond the Law, and it is only by that where there is salvation.

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. [Romans 3:19-22]