Martin Luther

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Re: Ezekiel Chapter 37
There is so much allegory here.

No - apocalyptic-minded application of an OT text to a NT reality: that Reality being Jesus.​

Who determines what Scripture is literal and what is allegory? I am sure your answer will involve Apostolic Succession and Oral Transmission of the Mysteries down through the centuries.

You lose They have no bearing on the matter. The question is one of literary comprehension, & those two things are as relevant to the literary character of the Books as they are to - say - the meaning of a nursery rhyme. Apostolic succession & that other thing are no help here. You’re asking a gigantic question (as you doubtless know).​

Still, it seems like you can make the Bible mean just about anything, using allegory. I think I said something similar to ByzantineWolf.

That is the problem with allegory - it makes the texts into a nose of wax, to be tweaked any way that suits the reader. Submitting to the discipline of accepting what a text is likely to mean in a sert of fairly-well defined circumstances about which a good deal of detail is known, is the reverse of this.​

I realize that Jesus taught in parables, and that he kept mysteries hidden from the crowds; and privately revealed the meaning to the disciples. Nearly every time Jesus performed a miracle; he told the recipient not to tell anyone. Jesus kept His identity secret, through much of his ministry. I realize he had to do this in order to complete his ministry.

The words of the 4th Chapter of Mark have always been disturbing to me. Jesus taught a large crowd using a parable. At the end of the parable, in Verse 9, he said, ". . . . "He who has ears to hear, let him hear."

Then we find, what appears to be, an intentional prevention of salvation: Mark 4:10-12 (ESV): 10 And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11And he said to them, "**To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, **

12 so that "they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.

I realize this is echoing an O.T. prophecy.

I could a write a book about that passage - or, at least, give you a long list of books that throw a great deal of light on it. It’s an immensely important passage, because it tells us a great deal about the Identity of Jesus. It’s taken from Isaiah 6, which is a vision of JHWH the King - & the Kingship of Jesus is a major NT theme, especially in Matthew. The emphasis on parables & concealment is part of what is known as the Messianic Secret: which is a major Marcan theme. Both are found all over the NT. The mysterion of Jesus in Paul is that in these last days God has revealed this secret.​

As for the immediate context here: this is the “playing-out” in time & space of the mystery of Jesus: the preaching of it hardens some, while others hear it gladly. The gospels are strong on predestination: these things were ordained “from before the foundation of the world” - from which it follows that God is Lord of history - He had “planned for” disbelief, & for belief.

My point is that not everyone had a “Damascus Road” experience like Paul.

Can you see that this might not appear to be “an equal opportunity” ministry? Yet, those who did not accept Christ were apparently condemned; or so I am told. Do you think those blinded from the truth will have another chance, or is our lifetime on earth our only chance for salvation?

Equality would be very unfair - because some of us need more opportunities than others. What’s needed - & given - is equity; which is something rather different. God is not fair - He’s gracious. If He were fair, we would be done for. Equity OTOH is a kingly quality.​

I don’t see anything in the Bible to suggest any post mortem “second opportunities”. As for chance, there is contingency - but not, AFAICS, chance; because nothing is outside Divine Providence.

Romans, Chapter 11, speaks of a “partial hardening upon Israel”: 25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written. . . . .

Then add in the “predestination issue”:

Ephesians 1:3-12 (ESV): 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.

In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.

I realize that my words may appear dangerously close to the “potter and clay analogy” in Isaiah 29:15-17. Please know that my intent is not to question God or; heaven forbid, judge his actions. I am just asking honest questions.

So, Gottle of Geer:

**1. What are your thoughts on allegory—and **
2. The selective revelation of Christ’s Truth?
3. Do you believe that our one lifetime on this earth is our only chance for salvation?

Allegory can be detected by its characteristic qualities - there are some in the Bible: as in Judges 9 & Galatians 4. But it’s rare.​

You’ll have to explain 2 to me - sorry. As for 3: yes.

Protestants do not have a concept of “purgatory.” So, I am very interested in hearing your beliefs; and those of anyone else who wants to jump in.

Always Questioning. . . .
Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

No - apocalyptic-minded application of an OT text to a NT reality: that Reality being Jesus.​

You lose They have no bearing on the matter. The question is one of literary comprehension, & those two things are as relevant to the literary character of the Books as they are to - say - the meaning of a nursery rhyme. Apostolic succession & that other thing are no help here. You’re asking a gigantic question (as you doubtless know).​

That is the problem with allegory - it makes the texts into a nose of wax, to be tweaked any way that suits the reader. Submitting to the discipline of accepting what a text is likely to mean in a sert of fairly-well defined circumstances about which a good deal of detail is known, is the reverse of this.​

I could a write a book about that passage - or, at least, give you a long list of books that throw a great deal of light on it. It’s an immensely important passage, because it tells us a great deal about the Identity of Jesus. It’s taken from Isaiah 6, which is a vision of JHWH the King - & the Kingship of Jesus is a major NT theme, especially in Matthew. The emphasis on parables & concealment is part of what is known as the Messianic Secret: which is a major Marcan theme. Both are found all over the NT. The mysterion of Jesus in Paul is that in these last days God has revealed this secret.​

As for the immediate context here: this is the “playing-out” in time & space of the mystery of Jesus: the preaching of it hardens some, while others hear it gladly. The gospels are strong on predestination: these things were ordained “from before the foundation of the world” - from which it follows that God is Lord of history - He had “planned for” disbelief, & for belief.

Equality would be very unfair - because some of us need more opportunities than others. What’s needed - & given - is equity; which is something rather different. God is not fair - He’s gracious. If He were fair, we would be done for. Equity OTOH is a kingly quality.​

I don’t see anything in the Bible to suggest any post mortem “second opportunities”. As for chance, there is contingency - but not, AFAICS, chance; because nothing is outside Divine Providence.

Allegory can be detected by its characteristic qualities - there are some in the Bible: as in Judges 9 & Galatians 4. But it’s rare.​

You’ll have to explain 2 to me - sorry. As for 3: yes.

Re: 2. The selective revelation of Christ’s Truth?

You just answered question 2, which pertained to this portion of my post:

The words of the 4th Chapter of Mark have always been disturbing to me. Jesus taught a large crowd using a parable. At the end of the parable, in Verse 9, he said, ". . . . “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”

Then we find, what appears to be, an intentional prevention of salvation: Mark 4:10-12 (ESV): 10 And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11And he said to them, "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables,

12 so that "they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.

So, would you say that you beliefs are in line with replacement theology?

Sounds like you believe the Christian Church is the “New Israel.” You made interesting arguments, but not sufficient to change my mind. I still see O.T. and N.T. Scripture revealing the Jewish people as God’s chosen people. The Gentile believers are grafted in and we all share in their promise.

I think we will just have to disagree on Ezekiel 37.

Thank you for coming back to this post,
Anna